#03: A Product of the Patriarchy
Drinking culture is everywhere—woven into celebrations, stress relief, and ideas about adulthood. But how much of our relationship with alcohol is shaped by marketing and social conditioning? In this episode of Girl, Undrunk, Heather and Zoe examine alcohol culture, the normalization of drinking, and the ways alcohol is marketed and weaponized—especially against women. From high school binge drinking and party culture to the mommy wine industrial complex, they unpack how society encourages alcohol use, why quitting drinking can feel radical, and what happens when we start questioning the role alcohol plays in our lives.
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A Product of the Patriarchy: Transcript
Heather: [00:00:00] This podcast covers sensitive topics that may be difficult for some listeners. Please take care while listening.
Hi listeners, welcome back to Girl, Undrunk. I'm Heather and today Zoe and I are talking about something bigger than just drinking. We're talking about the culture of alcohol.
Before I got sober, I never really questioned it.
Drinking was just what you did. It was in every movie, every TV show, for every celebration and every bad day. It was a rite of passage, a personality trait, a marker of adulthood. It was everywhere, and because it was everywhere, I never thought to ask, Do I actually want this? Getting sober doesn't just change your relationship with alcohol.
It changes how you see everything. Nights out, vacations, friendships, even the way alcohol is marketed to us. It's wild to look back and realize how much drinking was woven into every part of my life, and how much of it was never really a choice.
This episode, we're [00:01:00] focusing mostly on alcohol. But addiction shows up in so many other ways. Food, shopping, relationships, social media, to name a few. It's not just about substances. It's about the things we use to numb, escape, and cope. We definitely want to get into that in future episodes.
Before we get into it, if you've been enjoying this podcast, please do us a favor, rate and subscribe. It's a small thing that makes a huge difference in helping more people find these conversations.
Alright, let's get into it. You're listening to Girl, Undrunk.
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Heather: How was your week, Zoe ?
Zoe: My week was good. So I have been working out a lot more.
Heather: Yeah
Zoe: that was my first time going to Barry's.
Heather: Oh, it was?
Zoe: Yeah, that's why I was [00:02:00] so scared
Heather: What's the vibe like there? Is it very like equinox? Like you have to be beautiful to go?
Zoe: I think so. I felt safe because I went with Brandon, my gay friend, who's also sober.
Heather: Mm hmm.
Zoe: This is on ClassPass. I felt good about it. I didn't have to take any breaks, but I did do all the beginner things, but I think I did good.
Heather: Yeah, I've never, I only did ClassPass in New York for a little bit, but then I was only doing SPIN classes, so I was like, okay, I don't really need ClassPass. Like, I want to go every day and like, be as thin as I possibly can, so I'll just do, I'll SPIN for the rest of my life.
Zoe: Oh my god, SPIN is so Toxic and exhausting.
Heather: You think it's toxic?
Zoe: A little bit.
Heather: Yeah, I do too. I think all of those cult y workout things are a bit toxic.
Zoe: I think so too, but if you're only doing spin and if you're only doing Barry's , I feel like that's when they can get bad. You need to have that variety.
Heather: Yeah, I agree. I don't have cardio in my life at all. I mean, I do. I have like one Jump Pilates class a week.
Zoe: I think for you though cardio would be bad because that's what you [00:03:00] chased after
Heather: it triggers me
Zoe: Yeah
Heather: I have a Peloton I bought it when I was in my addiction when I was like fully drinking and I was getting really big and I was like Gotta start working out.
Zoe: Did you work out?
Heather: Yeah. Yeah. I went through phases where I was like working out every day, but then I was drinking immediately after.
Zoe: Did you think that was like justifying your drinking?
Heather: At that point I knew it wasn't because I had been through so many eating disorders already in my life where I had been justifying what I was eating based on how much I worked out and I knew that I was drinking so many calories a day that like it didn't matter how much biking I would do it would never level out.
Zoe: I mean, it's like me when I was a vegetarian during my drinking because I thought that, like, leveled it out.
Heather: Yeah, I feel like we talk about this all the time, but it's like drinking a green smoothie and putting an eight ball of coke up your nose and being like, My body is a temple.
Zoe: I'm the epitome of health.
Heather: I would never eat McDonald's. I am so healthy.
Zoe: Mm hmm.
Heather: I was just talking to one of my sober friends, Rens. I'm gonna have him on the podcast one day. But he [00:04:00] was saying, he was talking about working out and he's like, Yeah, I was thinking about that this morning that, like, I work out so hard and then I'll just, like, take a break and, you know, eat chips and feel like shit.
And I'm like, yeah, you have an eating disorder. Like, you're an addict. And he's like, well, it's not bad. I'm like, yeah, no, it's manageable. You're living in a thing. It's good he's working on his body. He's healthy. He also understands, like, this could go haywire real quick if I start to have an emotional feeling, you know?
I don't know if I can live a life without being micro addicted to something.
Zoe: I think everybody is addicted to something, that's how we're all living. A hundred percent.
Heather: Yeah.
Zoe: A hundred percent.
Heather: I guess motivation for anything is Fueled by some sort of Dopamine
I was talking about this last week that I wanted to book a trip But I did I booked it and I felt so excited
Zoe: So are you going to call them ahead and tell them that you're sober?
Heather: Yes So it's a really nice hotel and they texted me immediately or emailed me immediately So I just like made sure to have my [00:05:00] massages booked.
Zoe: Nice important.
Heather: Yeah, and then closer to the day. I'll just say like Hey, I'm sober. If there's any kind of alcohol in the mini fridge, let's take that out. I just want to feel so set up when I get there and not have anything to worry about. I just want to get there, open my bag, put all my skincare out. I've had an interesting week mental health wise.
How's your mental health?
Zoe: My mental is good. I think I'm just Very much in my workout era.
Heather: Yeah
Zoe: but I'm not shitting again.
Heather: You're not shitting?
Zoe: Yeah No, I need to figure that out
Heather: and that can affect your anxiety, too When your system isn't doing what it's supposed to do other systems in your body that aren't super necessary Try to put all their efforts into your digestion and it shuts down your brain and shit So anxiety
Zoe: but also when I was drinking I would be pooping all the time.
Heather: Oh, yeah. Well cuz alcohol is a laxative
Zoe: Yeah. Miss that.
Heather: When, when you went to rehab, did you go on, um, camperol or like naltrexone?
Zoe: i [00:06:00] wasn't medicated at all.
Heather: Oh, no anti cravings.
Zoe: I was the only. No, I didn't want any of those. They asked me and I was like, no,
Heather: because that gives you serious diarrhea.
Zoe: Yeah, I was the only one at my rehab that wasn't medicated.
Heather: Wow.
Zoe: Yeah, no sleeping pills. No, nothing.
Heather: So punk rock Zoe I know. So counterculture. They did try to fill us up with medication though. They really did. I was like relax.
Zoe: Yeah, no, they asked me a few times. So I was like, no, I don't think I need anything necessarily, like let's try to do this. Without anything.
Heather: Yeah.
Let's get into some sober news, shall we?
Zoe: Let's.
Heather: So the first thing I want to bring up is I read an article i'm following the Liam Payne stuff, which I know you are too. It's very sad. Um, and there's also a lot of legal situations going on with it. Again, we talked about this a little, a little last week, but the blame game, right?
That the parents are suing. They're trying to [00:07:00] figure out who's at fault. And there's three people that just got acquitted. So they'll drop the charges. That's good against them.
Zoe: Okay.
Heather: Um, there are two other people. hotel staff that are still in custody because they gave him the substances before he fell out the window.
This story is just really, really sad to me. It just feels like we're picking apart someone's life that, God, we just know nothing about. I, I listened to his girlfriend. You know, she made a statement on TikTok and as much as I want to like keep talking about About him and celebrities. God, these poor kids, like how long were they struggling with this shit, you know?
Zoe: Did he ask those hotel management people for the drugs?
Heather: Yeah, or whoever it was, there was a staff at the hotel that he was asking and they were like bringing it to him. Which is Not their fault.
Zoe: Not their fault.
Heather: In the same way that people will disagree with this, but it's not a drug dealer's fault.
Zoe: No.
Heather: If I buy drugs from that person.
Zoe: Yeah.
Heather: You know, so many people, I know people whose wives hate or husbands hate their [00:08:00] partner's drug dealer.
Zoe: Mm hmm.
Heather: And I get it. You want to place blame. How could you corrupt my partner like that? That dealer is nothing to them. There's, it's one in a million. I mean, you have to get back on Craigslist and look for a new one, but you'll find one.
Zoe: They'll find one always. Yeah, it is sad. I didn't know that they were blaming other people for his death. And that's crazy to me.
Heather: And I think that was one of the first things that they brought up. Looking into who's involved. We know who's involved. It's him.
Zoe: It's addiction's fault.
Heather: It is, and like, if you're willy nilly buying drugs and you get something that you don't know what's in it, or you're just out of control, like, that's all on you.
Zoe: Well, I also thought that at the beginning people were speculating that other people were in the room, or someone might have pushed them.
Heather: I think you want to believe that like, your kid couldn't possibly. do this to themself and like, you don't want to believe that your little baby boy got himself into this mess and you need to blame someone.
Zoe: But it's not his fault, it's the addiction.
Heather: Yeah.
Zoe: That's the [00:09:00] honest truth of it all, it's not him. He was under an addiction, it's a disease and that's
Heather: Yeah, and I imagine he had a lot of yes men around him.
Zoe: Yeah.
Heather: Okay, next up. This one is really interesting. EF Ultimate Break Tours. This is very similar to S Trip that you had. I had that. I think there was also a thing called Breakaway Tours, which essentially are these tour companies that work with high schools and colleges like 11th and 12th grade to bring people on trips.
Zoe: When did you go on your trip?
Heather: 12th grade, but there were some girls in 11th grade that went to
Zoe: Was yours primarily about drinking.
Heather: Yeah. That is the entire thing. I don't know what it's like in the States, but in Canada, it was like your right of passage to go on these fucking trips. There were some people in my school who went to Europe first spring break and it was like a historical thing. And then other people like me. I was like, we're going to QC and we're gonna get fucked up. Like, I just [00:10:00] had to go.
Zoe: QC is Quebec City because I wouldn't have known that until you said that before.
Heather: Oh, yeah. QC is Quebec City. Thank you for that clarification. But it was a big drinking thing and we, we, we were kids. And you told me before that you were one of the organizers of it.
Zoe: Yeah. So S TRIP came to our high school and Did their spiel and asked who wanted to be the organizers and me and my friends volunteered to be the organizers So we got everybody signed up and yeah, it was all based on drinking. We went to Cuba I think people had specific wristbands, but the people with the wristbands would just give the other people alcohol. So it didn't matter
Heather: These trips were really crazy. Basically you would We went to the mall. We got picked up by a Greyhound bus at like 6 a. m. And it's so lawless. It's immediately so fucking lawless. Everyone is crazy. Everyone's drinking on the bus. Was there an adult? There must, there must have been somebody from Breakaway tours or S [00:11:00] trip, an adult person that was there. This is my fucking problem. I feel like they got you to organize it, so they could say it wasn't them.
Basically, the reason we're talking about this is there was a recent article, EF Ultimate Break Tours put out a survey, between 18 and 22, because they deal more with like the college age kids, and asking what they wanted for a spring break trip. And, overwhelmingly, people responded that they want A sober trip. They're not interested in going Spring breaking tits out drinking till they die. They were like, let's go whitewater rafting Let's go hiking that to me that article a it brought back so many fucking memories b. I was like How is this shit? Still going on and how people must have died.
Zoe: No, I think that's why I got shut down because people started dying on S Trip.
Heather: Okay, I know of one girl who got, I don't know her, but the story was that there was someone in QC who was standing in [00:12:00] line and she like got her legs broken by being trampled in line. And underage. We were all underage, by the way. We were all 17, 16, 17, and going to QC, you had to be 18 to drink, Quebec City, but we all had fake IDs. It's a bus of children going to Quebec City to get fucked up and stay in hotel rooms with each other. There was no Supervision.
Zoe: No, there was no supervision. And I know a lot of people on my trip got like sexually assaulted or did a lot of shit that they regretted because they were just black out the whole entire time.
Heather: And at that age to you're just doing what everyone else is doing. You think it's cool. You don't know the consequence yet. You're drinking too much.
You're not eating. You're eating too much. You're partying. And we knew we were bad. Like we knew our parents didn't know. And these are tour groups that target high school students. And college students. It is fucked up.
Zoe: Well, I guess now everyone wants to be sober though.
Heather: Okay, next. [00:13:00] This is interesting. So, Arianne brought this up to me, our producer.
It's funny because what I think is happening with Arianne is that she's noticing Sober things or like drinking culture. She's noticing. Yeah more because we're doing this project. Yeah, she sees it alcohols all around her
Zoe: Which is great
Heather: and she sent this to me and she's like I can't get over this So basically we watched this clip before we started the podcast, but I'm assuming it's the opening skit of SNL. It's one of SNL. It's Drew Barrymore, Jimmy Fallon, Robert De Niro, and then Rachel Dratch? Anyway, it's like the Debbie Downer skit, and Drew Barrymore is there, and she asks for, they say, Oh, you know, we're here having a party, like, let's get something to drink. Is there a bartender here? She says that. And then they all have a glass of seemingly champagne.
They said bubbles, yeah. They said bubbles, but bubbles is champagne to me. And it's SNL, and SNL is historically You know, lousy with alcohol, drugs, strippers, sex, and [00:14:00] whatever else. So they're drinking alcohol, and, or they're drinking what seems to be champagne, and then something else happens, and they get a shot. And Drew Barrymore, they all drink it. She puts it to her lips, and kind of like, doesn't drink it.
Drew Barrymore is sober. That may have been water that they were drinking. The scene was weird.
Zoe: If it was water, though, she would have known that and she would have taken it like a shot of water.
Heather: And this is what I'm thinking. SNL is, it's scripted and improv. And I don't know, I, I imagine if you see the video it seems like when they walk in the champagne is ready for them, or the water, and I don't know if they drink on set, I don't know what they do, I'm sure some people do, whatever. The champagne is there waiting for them, but the shot, I don't know if that was like an improv thing, and with that I'm like, oh, this is an oversight, and then I wonder when Drew Barrymore put the shot glass to her lips if she was feeling, what are people gonna think, [00:15:00] is this actually alcohol? This is not, this doesn't align with my lifestyle. I'm not taking shots of water for fun.
Zoe: Yeah.
Heather: It doesn't align with me.
Zoe: Yeah.
Heather: You know?
Zoe: Yeah.
Heather: I feel like, is that an oversight?
Zoe: I feel like she was just happy to maybe do anything and It's weird that she got offered that scene because she is so openly sober.
Heather: Yeah
Zoe: and she was being herself like you said during that whole skit. She was acting like Drew Barrymore So why wouldn't Drew Barrymore be sober?
Heather: Yeah, that's what I found so weird. You didn't need to be in this skit It really had nothing to do with her. So It wasn't riding on her.
Zoe: No, she did look good in that skit though. Her hair looked like high. I don't know
Heather: Yeah
Zoe: side note, but the whole debbie downer thing debbie downer kind of reminded me of like me being sober being like Oh, you sure you guys want to drink? Drinking is bad for you. Are we debbie downer?
Heather: I think that inherently, people [00:16:00] that are sober are Debbie Downers, without even saying anything, because I don't tell my friends that, you know, they're a bunch of, you know, they're riddled with poison, and they're gonna die with football sized livers, but I think that my very presence is makes people think about their drinking, especially if we're at dinner and I'm not drinking and you order something Yeah, like if I go on a date and you order three drinks, and I have a ginger ale.
Zoe: Mm hmm yeah, people are forced to look at alcohol use when they're hanging out with us, which is a good thing
Heather: It is a good thing, but people aren't used to it because of the culture of it Yeah, and that brings us to our topic today Zoza. We're talking about The culture of alcohol.
This is a big topic. This is kind of how we got into drinking. It's how everyone gets into drinking and I want to know how were you first introduced to alcohol? As a kid.
Zoe: As a kid, I remember my dad drinking a lot. Whenever we'd go on vacations, [00:17:00] I would notice it more because he would get like more drunk on vacations, obviously, and I remember hating when he would get so drunk. Not that he was violent or anything. He was just not himself, maybe, and I think that's the first thing I noticed about drinking. It's like, oh my god, my dad's getting drunk again. Great. And then how I got into drinking was Maybe middle of grade nine. Um, I just like wanted to fit in with the cool kids because I was new at my school Everyone was drinking, and as soon as I started drinking, it was instantly love at first sight.
Heather: Love at first taste.
Zoe: Love at first taste.
Heather: Totally. Honestly, maybe sight, though, because I did think it looked cool.
Zoe: Mm hmm.
Heather: I grew up, there was drinking in my house. I, I would say probably every night it felt like there was wine, nothing crazy. Now that I'm older, I know there's alcoholism on both sides of my family and the stories that my parents would [00:18:00] tell of their parents growing up, it wasn't normal. It wasn't good. I mean, it was normalized, but it wasn't good. And I was always pretty aware of that, but never made the connection that like. Oh, this is a thing that can happen through alcohol. This is an addiction. It was never spoken about. I knew that he didn't like it and I knew that white wine, when I was a kid, looked like corn syrup. And corn syrup was disgusting to me.
Zoe: I did drink a beer when I was like six years old. Or maybe five years old because I thought it was apple juice.
Heather: Oh, did you drink the whole thing?
Zoe: I don't think so, but I had like a pretty big amount. Dad, what's my apple juice? He's like, oh, no, that's beer.
Heather: Oh
Zoe: So they were just like out
Heather: yeah, it was accessible.
Zoe: It was accessible.
Heather: And was there a You were aware that you can't drink until you're 19
Zoe: I think my parents knew that I was gonna be drinking in high school because come on
Heather: Because of who you were.
Zoe: Yeah, and I [00:19:00] think just they're not stupid.
Heather: Yeah
Zoe: people I think they're well aware that like when you're in high school you drink I don't think that they were ready for me to be drinking that much.
Heather: Yeah, my parents did a thing. They were fear mongering, which is honestly how we grew up with everything, but my dad was very much like, you guys could be allergic to alcohol and you know, you could die and I'm not going to be very happy if I have to get called to the hospital in the middle of the night and I'm standing over your hospital bed because you got your stomach pumped. And that is fucking terrifying, but it worked.
Zoe: It definitely worked for you.
Heather: It really did. And I think also In terms of being introduced to alcohol. I don't know what the program was called. The version that I know of D. A. R. E. Or what we would have at our school was like, we'd all get called down to the assembly and then a man would roll out in his wheelchair because when he was in high school he got in a car with a drunk driver and was paralyzed.
This man would come out and scare the fuck out of all of us. But that's where it stopped, right? It was like, don't drink and drive.
Zoe: Yeah.[00:20:00]
Heather: Okay. Like, there are so many things in between me right now as a 6th grader to getting in a car with someone that's drinking. Like, I never got into a car with a drunk driver. I didn't. But there were many other fucking things that happened to me, much more common.
It just felt the way that we were introduced to alcohol was not helpful. It felt like fear mongering, and it felt like there weren't room for questions.
Zoe: One, it just felt like I think I saw alcohol growing up. It's just like the fun thing to do. Yeah, it's just fun And no one could ever be hurt by it
Heather: and it feels like user error. Yeah, right like the guy in the wheelchair It's like well, yeah, you did a dumb fucking thing I'm sitting there being like I would never get into a car with a drunk It's like, yeah, you might not get into a car with a drunk babe, but you're certainly gonna get into a elevator with some man you don't know, you're going over to some guy's house, you're going up to the roof with some, like, you're doing a lot of dumb shit that no one fucking told you about, but I'm not getting into a car with a drunk driver, so I'm safe.
Zoe: Or even just, oh, watching your [00:21:00] drink all the time. Make sure when you're out, you're watching your drink all the time.
Heather: Yes! Oh my god.
Okay, before we get too crazy, I want to bring up this thing too. Arianne was the one who brought this up to me as well. Did you have this in the house where red wine was a health thing? It was looked at as like healthy antioxidants?
Zoe: It was looked at as healthier, maybe, but I think I never thought that it was a healthy drink.
Heather: Okay.
Zoe: Yeah.
Heather: I was definitely under the guise of like, wine is healthier for you because it's like a grape and red wine tastes like shit, so it's definitely really good for you.
Zoe: Oh. I thought it was better for you, but I don't think it was like the epitome of. Health and wellness. I remember when my friend in university I asked her like what she was doing and she was like, yeah I'm just gonna go and clean my house and have a glass of wine.
Heather: Yeah
Zoe: I was like, oh It is normal to like go home and clean your house and have a glass of wine. [00:22:00] But the problem is I would have that mindset of doing that, but of course I wouldn't clean it, I would just drink the whole bottle. So, the thought was there.
Heather: The intention was there, Zoe. I have that exact same thing. Every time I would clean my house, I'm like, Oh, I'll have a drink, this will make it more fun. Bitch, I didn't clean my house for years.
I do wonder sometimes, because I went to school in the States. And there is an age gap with being allowed to drink. We're allowed to drink in Canada, depending on your province, 18 or 19. Whereas the States, it's 21. And so I don't really know how that changes things for Americans when they're growing up. But when I went to college, I had already been at the clubs. I had already been at the bars. I was 15, 16, at this place called. Addiction, and we called it the dirty
Zoe: in Ottawa?
Heather: In Hull, in Quebec, but [00:23:00] we lived like on the border, really close to the border. So yeah, just go over because we could drink, right? Or our fake IDs would work better because there was like a year younger, whatever. Um, but yeah, we were already partying. So then when I went to college, I was really immature in a lot of ways. But they were doing like house parties and shit and like college dorm parties and I was like, oh, right, right.
Zoe: So what did you do when you went to the States?
Heather: Oh, well when I moved to Boston, I Was really excited to start really drinking because I was like my parents aren't here. Yeah, I don't have anyone watching me I'm not gonna eat and I'm gonna drink and I'm gonna have fun. Yeah, you know
Zoe: but It was hard to get access.
Heather: It was hard to get access. And also we were dancers, so you don't know who to ask necessarily. If you're going to ask the wrong ballerina and they're going to be like, fuck you, get out. But it turns out that most dancers have addiction anyway. So they were all drinking like sailors.
Zoe: Yeah. You just weren't going out. You were doing more house parties.
Heather: Yeah, house parties, which honestly I do like [00:24:00] better.
Zoe: Yeah.
Heather: Sometimes it's safer. But what was your college drinking experience like?
Zoe: Well, I had a fake ID. Because you had to be 19 here to drink. Yeah, and I started school here when I was 17. So I used, the fake ID was amazing. It worked all the time, but I also worked at a restaurant. So I had a lot of older friends. So all of my older friends would take me out. I'd go to school, I'd work, and then I'd go out. And since I probably hung out with older people, no one questioned my fake ID. And also I never went to a dorm party ever. I never had like a college party. I was always just going out to the clubs at 17. But yeah, I never really had that classic college experience. It was just, I immediately moved here, started working at a restaurant, and immediately was in the realm of drinking every day.
Everyone in the [00:25:00] serving culture, in restaurant culture, are alcoholics, addicts, borderline at least.
Heather: That's the life that I would have wanted. Like, that is When I thought about drinking, it was like sophisticated and cool, so to have been invited out with like an older crowd to go drinking, I would have been like, this is my everything, I've made it.
Zoe: It definitely was fun, like the first year. Probably one of the best years of my life, but quickly I got fired.
Heather: Did, um, did you ever have any experiences in college that were really scary? Because you were drinking or doing drugs?
Zoe: I think just waking up in houses that I didn't know and Waking up the next morning with people. I didn't know
Heather: Okay
Zoe: and I used to bike a lot and I wouldn't remember biking home from the bar Well, my bike would be in the living room. I would wake up. My bike would be in the living room
Heather: I n a blackout.
Zoe: I would be like, how did I bike home last night? I told myself I wasn't gonna bike home last night and I ended up biking home last [00:26:00] night.
Heather: I think college is probably when the scarier stuff would have started happening because there's less supervision and like
Zoe: I'm sure scary stuff happened to me as Sexual assault stuff.
Heather: Yeah
Zoe: did I care at that point? Absolutely not.
Heather: Yeah I had one situation that happened at a party on a roof and this guy followed me up there and I really was drunk and I needed air. I was like very dizzy and he followed me up and like I Made out with him because I was really scared that he was gonna throw me off the roof.
Zoe: Oh my god
Heather: I hadn't had sex yet. So I was like, okay, I might Have to
Zoe: yeah
Heather: so how am I gonna dissociate?
Zoe: Yeah, scared to be pushed off the roof?
Heather: Yeah, there's been a lot of times with men where I've done something with them sexually because I'm afraid. It's survival. It's literally survival and that's what it is to be a woman and you throw drinking into the mix and it gets really fucking scary.
I think I was pretty resilient by that time like fear resilient, risk resilient, alcohol resilient. I was like We're going to figure out this drinking thing and I'm [00:27:00] going to do it well. Because it was, it was serving me in college. That's the thing. It was. I was throwing up and I had eating disorders and I was very mentally ill, but alcohol was fun at that time for me still.
Zoe: Yeah.
Heather: This is interesting because for me it did and I've touched on it, but did your addiction manifest in other ways like, like other mental illnesses or other afflictions or weed or depression, shit like that?
Zoe: I did smoke when I started drinking at grade nine. I did start smoking. Smoking cigarettes and smoking weed. I think all three of them happened at the same time.
Heather: Okay.
Zoe: Yeah And I did all three up until the end of first year At the end of first year my boyfriend at the time said oh, let's like quit smoking weed and I was like, okay if you want to like sure I can quit smoking weed because it Alcohol was always my number one.
Heather: Okay, I was gonna say.
Zoe: Alcohol was always my number one.
Heather: So you weren't addicted to weed, or maybe you were, but alcohol was like your buddy.
Zoe: I was addicted to weed for sure, [00:28:00] but I was fine with quitting weed because I had alcohol still. So I guess that was like second years when I really honed in on alcohol because I didn't have weed anymore.
Heather: What about like eating disorders, depression, anxiety, did you have that stuff?
Zoe: I think I always had depression, anxiety, but I think it really was just wrapped in my drinking.
Heather: Yeah, yeah.
Zoe: I don't know if I struggled without the drinking, because I would just, I had drank every day up until I was, what, 14 to that point, so I don't really know life without it.
Heather: Okay, I think that's important. So at 14 you were drinking, and you were probably drinking most days.
Zoe: I would go into grade 10 and grade 11, stealing a bottle of wine from my friend's mom's house, and we would chug that shit. On our lunch in the bathroom together and then put it in the tampon dispensary and then go about our day. So I was drinking at school in grade 10.
Heather: Wow, [00:29:00] Zoe.
Zoe: And smoking weed during gym class with the guys So I was always doing something.
Heather: This is interesting because I don't know this like I didn't know that you were this Into it at a young age.
Zoe: Like I said as soon as I started drinking honestly at the end of grade 9 I didn't stop.
Heather: Yeah. Wow, that's so It's just fascinating. It's just funny to like see how people grow up and then we end up in the same place.
Zoe: Yeah. If you aren't addicted to alcohol when you start drinking, that's not to say it's not going to catch up to you later on in life, a hundred percent. That's just how it happened to me. As soon as I picked it up, I couldn't actually put it down.
Heather: Yeah. And what were your parents saying to you at that time?
Zoe: They would catch me, yell at me, and I would do it all over again. I didn't care. I was a bad kid in that regard. And I put my parents through shit, and I know that.
Heather: Ah, it's so interesting.
Zoe: It wasn't easy, for sure.
Heather: Did you know anyone at the time? That was sober. Was sober anything to you? Did it mean anything to [00:30:00] you?
Zoe: No.
Heather: Isn't that funny?
Zoe: There was people that I knew that didn't drink as much and I didn't like hanging out with those people.
Heather: Yeah, same. The only The only thing I knew about sober was Dr. Phil and intervention. What does that tell us? That like, if you are sober, it's because you've been bad. And drugs and alcohol are bad. It felt very much like if you drink, this is where you're going to end up. But my parents are drinking wine every night. And then that's where you get the like, alcohols not bad.
Zoe: The way I'm doing it is bad.
Heather: Yes. Or, it's not alcohol at all. It's meth. It's heroin. It's all these And it's vodka. He's drinking vodka. Vodka's bad.
Zoe: Yeah.
Heather: We really start to decide what's acceptable and what's not at a very young age because it's what we see. Yeah. You know, I didn't know anybody that was sober. I didn't know that was a thing. When we talk about, you know, the culture of it all, we can't We [00:31:00] can't leave out how we were raised. The way I was raised was completely by media and movies and TV.
What are some of your like movies you remember growing up with?
Zoe: Yeah, I remember Project X coming out. I think that was really like, oh my god, it's so fun.
Heather: Okay.
Zoe: And there was a moment, me and my friend group at that time, we were all supposed to have a party at our parents house. And my party was insane. People wrote in the yearbook as their best memory of high school. They wrote my party.
Heather: Whoa.
Zoe: It was an epic party.
Heather: Were your parents there?
Zoe: No, but I got in a lot of trouble after that too.
Heather: Oh shit. Yeah, I loved a house party. I always was expecting a house party to be amazing because like I loved Clueless and American Pie, Crossroads. Have you seen Now and Then?
Zoe: It sounds familiar.
Heather: Basically, it's about this group of women and they're like in their 40s and they are reminiscing [00:32:00] about their past and the past is in like the 50s and they're just like kids and it's so cute. While they're reminiscing they're like pouring into their glasses of wine and that movie I'd watch it with my friends And we'd be like this is what we're gonna do We're gonna drink wine and talk about our past together. So even at a young age I was like thrilled about that
Zoe: excited about drinking like being able to in a social setting Yeah, but the problem is that we weren't able to do that.
Heather: No, that's the problem. We don't have that. I think movies like that like clueless and American Pie, Confessions of a teenage drama queen. They did a lot of drinking in that. I feel like I grew up specifically with a lot of drinking culture and to be cool, you had to fucking drink.
Zoe: Yeah, it was just ingrained in everything that drinking was the cool thing to do And I desperately wanted to be cool and I moved to a new city and started high school
Heather: Yeah, and the only consequences really were like You would get in trouble if you were hosting the party in these movies or you would throw up because you're drinking too much.
First of all, I [00:33:00] loved throwing up. I remember my first day back to college, my second year. I was at Boston Conservatory Dance College and that whole summer I hadn't eaten. I had lost probably like 20 pounds and I was running on the treadmill every day for 45 minutes like posting. I would put a post it on the wall in front of the treadmill of a weight I wanted to be and I would like catch it like I would try to run and then.
Zoe: That's so sad.
Heather: I was weighing myself every day. It was so. That was the first time I was like horribly depressed and I was so skinny. That's when I was doing hot yoga every morning at 6 a. m. and not eating and passing out and biking to hot yoga.
Zoe: Oh my god.
Heather: This One time, it was my first day back and we had a party at this girl Mikayla's house.
And we went over there and my friend, she had an eating disorder, I had an eating disorder. We both saw each other and we were like, best friends that year. And that whole night I was drinking so much and spent so much time puking. She had to like walk me home. I was throwing up over railings. She tucked me into bed. But the whole time I was [00:34:00] throwing up, I was like, at least I'll be skinny, which is disgusting. The glamorizing of it all, they don't show. Actual consequences that can happen and it happens and this is where we get the gender divide, right?
Zoe: Yeah
Heather: for women and yes, it's dangerous to drink for men too, especially like LGBTQ. It's so dangerous Like when women when we start drinking we are able to drink different amounts It just feels like our inhibitions go down. This is the consequences. This is what we have to talk about We like have to talk about Sexual assault.
Zoe: Yeah,
Heather: and and and when your inhibitions are low what you do and what you're gonna fucking think about yourself the next day And I'm not slut shaming by any means but like so many mornings I've woken up being like I have to kill myself because of what I did last night.
Zoe: Yeah,
Heather: you know?
Zoe: I think also the drinking and keeping up with men. You can never drink the same amount as men, but I always wanted to to seem cool, and I would try to keep up with these men. [00:35:00] Eventually I could, yeah, but I think that was a big part of it too. And when you go on dates with these guys, they do, Love when you're drinking, you know, because then your inhibitions are down and they think that you're going to sleep with you and half the time they got to.
Heather: Half the time?
Zoe: More than that. 99. 9.
Heather: When I first moved to the city, I went on a date with this guy. We went to a bar in Liberty Village and I had had like two tequila sodas, that was like my drink, so there's no calories, and yes, there is, by the way. And I went to the bathroom and I came back and he had ordered me a third one. And I remember thinking like, oh, what we're gonna fuck?
Zoe: Yeah.
Heather: Because he's ordering me another drink.
Zoe: Yeah.
Heather: This is what this is, this is adult dating.
Zoe: Yeah.
Heather: And then since then, I've noticed how many Men order me alcohol on dates and ask for another round. And I'm like, if you just ask me to have sex with you, I probably will.
Zoe: A hundred percent.
Heather: You don't need to get me into a state of comatose first.
Zoe: Yeah.
Heather: But that is the culture of it, you know?
Zoe: When I got [00:36:00] out of rehab, I hated walking down and seeing advertisements of booze down the street. You noticed it. I noticed it so much. I would catch every single little advertisement for booze, whether it be on those signs outside of bars being like, Oh, is it a rainy day? Come in. Get drunk. Blah, blah, blah. Like, that's so fucked up. I hated all of those and it was really hard for me to see that because it is so ingrained in every part of the world.
Heather: It's like, can I just go on a mental health walk and not run into like, someone trying to give me alcohol? It is, it's hard and as a sober person, you have to navigate that and you have to learn.
Zoe: And it took me a while to learn that without actually getting upset and my mood changing.
Heather: Well, you know how I feel. I get very triggered by other [00:37:00] people's recovery.
Zoe: Yeah.
Heather: When they're doing it in a way that I think is fucking stupid. And like, that's not fair to say, but there was a thing that happened today of a friend who posted something on their social media, something to do with alcohol with their child. And they're sober. And I saw it on Instagram and I was like, What the fuck is this bullshit? Is this supposed to be funny? Sorry, you're an addict. And you're posting a picture of your child that has something to do with alcohol. It really pissed me off because, yes, of course, you can't stay away from alcohol. You can't avoid it at all costs. But you don't have to actively go towards it and try and navigate life inside the bar, you really don't have to do that. And so, I think for me, what I'm learning, and you've been helping me, because I've been pissed off at this person before with their recovery journey. It's like, everyone's [00:38:00] is different, and everyone's coping mechanisms, they have different support systems. It's hard for me, and you're just blatantly doing them. I'm like, I'm scared for you.
Zoe: Yeah, but that doesn't mean that they're scared for themselves.
Heather: I know, but they should be.
Zoe: But they don't
Heather: I know, I know. But that is hard for me. It's hard and it's the same way with like, walking down the street after getting sober and seeing all of these storefronts with alcohol asking you to come in.
Zoe: But that's the thing, the government doesn't want us to be sober because alcohol funds a lot of things. The money that a lot of people are putting towards alcohol funds, like that's billions of dollars.
Heather: Yeah, I mean, and don't even get me fucking started. They're opening up. All like gas stations along the 11 have alcohol now. It's, what do you think people are going to do? Wait to get to Muskoka to start drinking? They're drinking in their fucking cars.
Zoe: Of course.
Heather: Get alcohol when you get there.
Zoe: But God, thank God I am sober now because, oh, I don't know what I would have.
Heather: Oh, I would have gotten to the place where I was drinking and driving for sure.
Zoe: I was [00:39:00] drinking and driving.
Heather: A lot of people are, yeah. I mean, yeah, there's a lot of DUIs going around. Does that get expunged eventually? Does it get off your record?
Zoe: I honestly do not know. I didn't pay attention to anything when the court was happening because I was still drinking. I didn't drink two weeks after I got that DUI.
Heather: Oh, really?
Zoe: Yeah, and then I immediately started drinking again.
Heather: Oh my god, speaking of DUIs, I think when I first heard about DUIs, it had to be the like, the Lindsay Lohan of it all. That is such a cultural Moment for me, those girls, the Paris, Nicole Richie, and that also ties in like with the Kim Kardashian, the sex tape, the not eating, the drinking, the drugs, the partying, the rehab, the DUIs, it was such a cultural moment growing up, being in middle school, maybe a little high school, and these girls, it was such a cultural moment growing up. That was addiction to me.
Zoe: Yeah
Heather: that's what I thought addiction was
Zoe: and the funny thing is that you thought that was scary and [00:40:00] addiction And I thought that looked fun,
Heather: huh? It felt like freedom to you.
Zoe: I think so.
Heather: Okay, interesting Yeah, that to me was like those girls are trash. Those girls are sluts Because that is how I grew up, not to say that my specific parents were shaming people like that, but that is how I grew up. I was a dancer. We were like better than everybody else because we weren't drinking and doing drugs. Those are people who don't have hobbies. They don't have jobs. They're losers, you know? Never thought that would be me.
Zoe: Yeah, maybe I just like always wanted an escape and that looked like an escape to me. I don't know.
Heather: Yeah, I mean it is freedom. You can kind of do whatever you want. The problem is there was no actual help for those girls, and if there was. It wasn't really to us that I was hearing the words rehab and DUI and therapy Like it was a punishment.
Zoe: Mm hmm
Heather: when it's actually what we know is rehab is the best decision in the world It's so fun that
Zoe: best thing that has ever happened to me [00:41:00] ever
Heather: and those girls probably went to great fucking Calabasas rehabs.
I think That that was a really transformative time for me where I really solidified like I'm pure I'm not gonna be like that. Those girls are bad. I couldn't understand the jump from who I was at 12 Yeah to getting to where Lindsay Lohan is now. I couldn't But I also realize how demonized those girls were.
Zoe: Yeah. And there was always the girls. Where is a photo of a man being victimized like that?
Heather: And we had rock stars. I mean, River Phoenix, he had, he died of a heroin overdose at Johnny Depp's club, the, the Viper Room, I mean, Johnny Depp is clearly an alcoholic. All of them growing up, and we know now after the P. Diddy shit, they're all on drugs. The rock stars, the male rock stars, went off to go work on themselves because they were having a cocaine issue.
Zoe: Yeah, and it was fine because they're rock stars.
Heather: And they're men! And of course, they're in Hollywood, so of course they're going to do cocaine because it's sex, drugs, and rock and roll. But when [00:42:00] it's the girls, well, they're just Bimbos and losers and sluts and so my affiliation with girls drinking is that you're a slut
Zoe: Mm hmm.
Heather: And so I think that still
Zoe: yeah
Heather: you know
Zoe: yeah
Heather: which I don't but I do and I got a lot of my shame Does come from that?
And then we have Amanda Bynes, oh, did you watch the Amanda show?
Zoe: No, I think that was before I was before like Hannah Montana's, oh, we want to one.
Heather: Okay
Zoe: sweet life That kind of stuff.
Heather: Well, in Miley Cyrus, her age, I believe, is what kept her from going down a heroin route. Or something, maybe family, because Demi Lovato and her are the same age, and Demi is an absolute drug lunatic.
Zoe: Yeah. I wish every celebrity would open up about that, though. Me too. Justin Bieber, for example.
Heather: Oh, Justin Bieber.
Zoe: Yeah. [00:43:00]
Heather: So you said, you said this to me, that You brought up a video. He went to...
Zoe: he went to Hailey Bieber's pop up event for R. O. A. D. in L. A. And everyone's speculating that he's on drugs and it doesn't look like him.
Heather: Yeah.
Zoe: And they're saying that maybe it's a clone of him and it's not him. But I can't believe that it's a clone. I'm not ready to believe that. And you said that it's probably just his face morphing because of drugs. And that is more believable to me.
Heather: You know, it's weird to sit here and speculate about someone's drug use. But what we know is that There is a lot of drug use in Hollywood, and if you're following it, the P. Diddy shit is really traumatic, and whether, you know, Justin was assaulted in any way by any of them, or not, his name is being brought up, he knows people, he's a part of it, people are speculating, he just had a baby, that's so much stress. Don't hate me for speculating [00:44:00] about someone's drug use. To me, it looks like he's on meth.
Zoe: Yeah. The part that I don't understand about that, if he was actually coked out or methed out at that event, what I don't understand is why they would let him go. Why would they let him go to that event in the first place?
Heather: But who's they?
Zoe: His team.
Heather: His team.
Zoe: His wife. Why would his wife want her methed out husband at her event?
Heather: I mean, it's not like he had sores on his face. He didn't look like he was overdosing. He just looked sketchy a little bit. And, and I don't know, is it better, is it better to have your husband there or to not have him there and then we're speculating about why he's not there, right? I don't know.
Zoe: I think it would be better to Let him figure his shit at home and not bring him to an event.
Heather: Yeah, if you're doing drugs stay home You don't need to go to the event. It's okay. Just stay home and
Zoe: stay home and do your drugs But also maybe think about wanting to be sober.
Heather: I think it's funny to think of [00:45:00] Media we grew up with and how it was so obvious their alcohol use and all that especially growing up reality TV like big brother I feel like they were all really really drunk and then As we get older, we're watching different shows and getting sober. I'm like, yo, this shit is the same. It's just, it's just under the guise of like sophistication, right? We have Beverly Hills. We have the Kardashians. We have Vanderpump rules. Everyone's drinking.
Zoe: Everyone's drinking.
Heather: This turning into this almost like sophisticated or even the mommy wine culture, right? Now we're not just drinking when we're out. We're drinking at home, right? And you said the thing that you brought up with your friend.
Zoe: Glass Of wine and cleaning the house.
Heather: Yeah, it's like that is the goal. Yeah, that would be cool. And that is where like adult drinking comes in where you feel the shift where you're drinking after work because it's the adult thing to do. You want to relax.
Zoe: But I would question that if anyone's drinking. Every single day, even [00:46:00] if it's a glass of wine.
Heather: Yeah.
Zoe: You're addicted to it.
Heather: Yeah
Zoe: if you can't go a day without drinking that one glass of wine at dinner I'm sorry, but you have a slight addiction to it
Heather: Yeah And we're gonna get pushback on that because a lot of people have their one two three glasses of wine at night Because it's a socially acceptable thing to do
Zoe: and I hate that. I'm sorry. I hate that. That makes me furious that that is the world still I don't I hope that the world right now is becoming more sober and that's Hopefully not the way that it's going to be forever. Yeah, having one or two glasses of wine at night if it's an important dinner. Yeah, that's fine. But to have to do it every single night, I don't think that's right. I'm sorry.
Heather: And also if you're sitting there being like, and not to judge anyone, of course, but if you're sitting there being like, oh, well, I have a beer or two every night after work, but I'm exhausted. And it's just kind of like what I do, but it's not an addiction. I don't even get drunk.
Zoe: But those are just excuses that you're telling yourself.
Heather: I think that a big goal for [00:47:00] people, for me anyway, would be to Just acknowledge your own drinking.
Zoe: Just acknowledge that if you are drinking a lot.
Heather: Yeah, and when you're drinking, why you're drinking, how often.
Zoe: Yeah, just question, like, do I need this glass of wine right now?
Heather: Yeah.
Zoe: Do I actually need this glass of wine right now?
Heather: Movies, TV, Ginny and Georgia, like, 8 civil rules. I just said two TV shows that are so wildly opposite timelines. But we've always had this idea of like, drinking as a way to relax.
Zoe: Yeah.
Heather: And when it comes to the mom shit, I'm like, yeah, moms are alcoholics because They're raising children. How could you not be? How could you not want a glass of wine? Moms get together, complain about their fucking kids. I would do that too. Or their husbands.
It's encouraged, right? It's encouraged to do that. It looks good. It feels fun. But I really think, and this might be a stretch.
Zoe: Okay. What? Say it.
Heather: Um, mommy wine culture. Okay.
Zoe: Say it.
Heather: It is. a [00:48:00] product of the patriarchy. And listen, if feminism is a way to get you to stop drinking and to get sober, this might be it. Mommy wine culture comes from lobotomies, okay? In the 30s, women were getting lobotomies for things like hysteria, low sex drive, temper. Tired. Shit like that, your diagnosis is hysterical, you get a lobotomy.
Okay, now lobotomy is a little bit crazy, so in the 50s we moved to Valium, okay? It's like a Benzo. We moved to Valium, that's great, but they're addictive. You can't take them every day. Let's give them Xanax. After Xanax, now people bring Xanax with them places on vacations to dinner parties to events. It's everything and then Xanax is no different than wine So you're just doing the lobotomy thing Drinking wine.
I was fucking lobotomized all the time sitting on my couch. Just like dead eyes looking at YouTube Yeah
Zoe: it's a distraction.
Heather: It's a [00:49:00] distraction and yeah, it is a product of the patriarchy they did this. Women have to do everything we have to be everything and then
Zoe: It's like a reward, the drink at the end of the day.
Heather: It is a reward, but we can't have too much. Or we're not classy women. But we have to have a little bit or we're not fun. And now you put all this pressure on the day and you're allowed to come home and drink because you worked. This is so binary, but like, you came home, you work, you get to have a drink. But if I drink, has everything been done already? And I'm not even married and I know that all of this is like societal pressure.
Zoe: Yeah.
Heather: It makes sense that there's a coping mechanism for it. But wine's a drug. Wine culture. Going out for wine with the girls. You're just drugging yourself and it is no different than taking a Xanax or like getting a lobotomy if you're drinking every day I just think that that's like it's a little bit of a stretch, but I think it's important [00:50:00] to note that like Self medication or self medicating has to do with alcohol as well.
Zoe: Yeah
Heather: it really really does
Zoe: I just want people to be intentional and know what they're doing and not being in an everyday cycle of repetitiveness.
I went to an event maybe three months ago And it was sponsored by White Claw. Okay. And I went to the bar and I was like, Oh, what sober drinks do you have? And they said, Water.
Heather: Come on.
Zoe: Yeah. And I explained to them, Oh my god, I'm sober, You don't have any pop or anything like that? And they said, Oh no, we didn't think about that.
Heather: They only had White Claw?
Zoe: White Claw only.
Heather: It's stupidity. It really is. And not just for the alcoholics of the world, but like there's so many people that don't want to drink or like they're on medication or they're pregnant or whatever. We do live in an alcoholic world. We really do.
Zoe: We do. It's ingrained in every Aspect of living and you do have to make an active [00:51:00] choice to say no on a daily basis
Heather: Yeah, and it gets easier to navigate it does i'm able to but it is nice to go back and acknowledge these things every now And then because you start to feel a little crazy sometimes. You're not crazy look around you every billboard every restaurant Everything is alcohol. You feel like that for a reason and you're going against the grain.
Zoe: Exactly
Heather: it's gonna feel like
Zoe: you're actually so cool and you're going against the grain, And you're going to be okay for that.
Heather: Yeah. When I look at my TikTok, my TikTok and my Instagram are pretty sober. Is yours?
Zoe: I would say some of it, not all of it. I'm not following sober accounts like you are. I don't think, yeah.
Heather: Hmm. Yeah. Well, you can follow our sober account.
Zoe: Yes.
Heather: I do follow sober people cause that was my thing. When I got out of rehab, I was like, let's make everything sobriety. And this is a good point. If you start following sober things or liking mocktails or mocktail recipes, it changes your algorithm [00:52:00] and it is nice. It's nice to feel like you're surrounded by sober things or you've put things in place to keep yourself sober. And now I like looking at sober mocktails. I like thinking about making them and never actually making them.
Zoe: Hmm. It's way too much work to make them.
Heather: Yeah, I would never do that.
Zoe: I mean, we will. For like a YouTube or something.
Heather: For content.
Zoe: For content.
Heather: For content. We will do it.
But yeah, you can't navigate the world. You can't get rid of all the alcohol around you, but you can
Zoe: live with it.
Heather: You can live with it. You can do your best to keep yourself safe in that way. And I think like setting up an algorithm for yourself, you know, getting sober books around your house is a really good thing. It's just little reminders when we're in a world of like Huge reminders of alcohol, you know, it's nice to create things in your life that are sober.
Zoe: Yeah, I like that
Heather: Mm hmm.
Zoe: I like that a lot.
Heather: Well after all of that media stuff and watching everything we've watched for the past 26 and 30 years I'm proud of you.
Zoe: I'm proud of you too.
Heather: All right, see you.[00:53:00]
Thanks for listening to Girl, Undrunk. You can follow us on Instagram and TikTok at girlundrunkpodcast and or send me an email at heatheratgirlundrunk. com And before we go, thank you to our amazing producer, Ariane Michaud, and support from her team at Consciously Produced, Martin Nunez-Bonilla for the graphics, Ian Sitt for setting up our sound, and Daniel James for the music and final edits. This podcast would not be possible without you.
