#02: We’re Crafty B*tches
Fear plays a powerful role in addiction, sobriety, and addiction recovery—so let’s talk about it. In this episode of Girl, Undrunk, Heather and Zoe explore the anxiety that comes with getting sober, staying sober, and learning how to live without alcohol as a coping mechanism. They unpack fears around relapse, fear of missing out (FOMO), facing difficult emotions, and navigating social situations in a drinking culture. With honesty, humor, and real talk, this episode speaks to anyone who is sober, sober-curious, questioning their relationship with alcohol, or learning how to exist in a world built around drinking.
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We're Crafty B*tches: Transcript
Heather: [00:00:00] This podcast covers sensitive topics that may be difficult for some listeners. Please take care while listening.
Hey everyone, welcome back to Girl Undrunk. I'm Heather, and before we dive in, I want to talk about something that comes up a lot in sobriety. Fear. I hear it all the time. Fear of getting sober, fear of staying sober, fear of just existing as a sober person in a world that revolves around drinking.
And honestly, I get it. Even starting this podcast has brought up so many fears and insecurities for me. Putting myself out there, sharing my story, wondering if I'm saying the right things. And the tricky thing about fear is that it doesn't just sit quietly in the background, right? It sneaks into our decisions, our habits, our relationships.
For me, fear was a huge reason I drank in the first place. It was my safety and my way of avoiding the things I didn't want to face. And today, that's exactly what Zoey and I are here to talk about. Fear plays such a huge role in addiction, [00:01:00] also in recovery and just life. It can hold us back, but it can also be a sign that we're stepping into something new, something better.
Before we get into it, I also want to say, throughout this episode, we laugh about some of the things we've been through. Sometimes, that's just how we cope. But some of what we talk about, especially the dangerous situations we put ourselves in while drinking, are not things we actually take lightly. But trauma is so weird and sometimes you laugh.
If you've ever woken up and pieced together a night that doesn't sit right, or if you've ever felt that pit in your stomach realizing how vulnerable you were, We just want you to know you're not alone. We get it. And those experiences matter regardless of how much or how little you remember. So let's get into it.
Because if there's one thing I've learned, it's that talking about the scary stuff makes it a whole lot less scary. You're listening to Girl Undrunk.[00:02:00]
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Hi everyone.
Zoe: Hello.
Heather: Welcome back to the second episode of Girl, Undrunk. I'm your host Heather.
Zoe: And I'm Zoe.
Heather: And we're here to talk to you about all things addiction, sobriety, and everything in between. So let's just start with a mental health check in. How you doing, Zoe?
Zoe: I'm tired.
I'm okay. I feel like I can't sleep in anymore.
So that just sucks because I got home last night at four and I woke up at nine and I just couldn't go back to sleep.
Heather: Oh wow.
Zoe: Yeah.
Heather: And you went to Pilates.
Zoe: And I went to Pilates, yes. Um, but overall week was fine until Valentine's Day hit and then I was like, ugh. Yeah. I tried to pretend it was a Galentine's Day instead of a Valentine's Day.
I [00:03:00] really tried, but then I went on social media and saw very clearly it is not a Galentine's Day.
Heather: No.
Zoe: It's a fucking Valentine's Day and everyone was getting flowers. And, uh, You want to think it doesn't, like, upset you, but it does, and, um, I was really sad Friday night alone.
Heather: Yeah, I'm sorry.
Zoe: Did you watch a movie?
I don't remember what I watched. I probably watched something crazy. Oh, I think it's called Intrusion. Hmm. It's like a
crazy movie to watch on Valentine's Day.
Heather: Oh my god. Oh, yeah. It was like a break in, robbery. I don't know.
Zoe: I watched 500 Days of Summer.
Heather: Okay, so you're doing this to yourself.
Zoe: I'm not gonna lie, like, I really do love to just watch something and be in my feels and cry for a good ten minutes.
Heather: Do you feel like it helps?
Zoe: It does help, but on Valentine's Day, nothing can help.
Heather: No. Nothing can help.
No, because it's like a giant advertisement in your face, and then when people are getting roses, I'm like, wait, I like that. [00:04:00]
Zoe: Yeah, my week up until Friday was good, Friday sucked, and now I really want my Valentine's Day nails off of me now.
Heather: Yeah, yeah.
Zoe: But I have to wait two weeks.
Heather: Does um, does that kind of like sadness, like that heart sadness, does that fuck with your sobriety at all?
Zoe: I can see if I am in that state for a long time, yes it could fuck with my sobriety. I feel like I used to be so obsessed and jealous over boys when I was an addiction, and that jealousy If I feel that, I get triggered because that's how I used to be when I was drinking.
So I want to do anything and everything possible to not be jealous. I guess I just don't surround myself with people who could make me feel like that. I just need like chill guys in my life.
Heather: And that's the, that's so hard about dating, because like, as a sober person now, we're like, I'm in control of pretty much everything in my life.[00:05:00]
Zoe: Yeah.
Heather: The thing you can't control is other people's feelings and actions. And that's so hard when you're like, I'm not gonna let this person or this day or the lack of flowers at my doorstep bring me down. But unfortunately, it does. It does.
Zoe: The truth is, I hate that it does affect me. But what can you do?
Heather: Yeah, it is good to say it out loud, I think.
Zoe: Did you get yourself flowers?
Heather: No, I, uh, I don't keep things alive. I love to give flowers. Like, I love, love, love. I just never have them in the house, you know?
Zoe: How was your week?
Heather: Um, my week was stressful. I've been having a lot of cravings. This week kind of fucked with me a lot. I'm planning a trip, a solo girl trip, to, uh, Somewhere in Mexico.
Zoe: Didn't last week you say like you weren't ever gonna fly again, and now you're planning a solo trip
Heather: I know well my therapist the day that like the plane crash happened or one of the three My therapist flew to [00:06:00] Amsterdam and I was like, do you feel safe or scared? And she said no, I feel fine I said, okay, so if she's going I'm going and maybe I'll just slip through without a problem, you know
Zoe: Okay, so I get it like you're scared only when People that you know in your circle aren't doing it as well.
Heather: Yeah. I like to know that other people are flying. Yeah. And it's okay before I go.
Zoe: Okay.
Heather: But I also, being here, it's a full blizzard.
Zoe: It's a full blizzard,
Heather: and it, uh, is affecting my brain and my body so much. My back hurts all the time. And last night I was lying, or two nights ago, I was lying in my bed and I was looking at resorts to go to. I'm looking for sober places. That's not really a thing. So, whatever. I can handle it myself. And I'm lying in my bed thinking about it, like, what I'm gonna do, how I'm gonna avoid alcohol. And I started to get really fucking panicky. Like, my body felt such a strong craving. Almost like, well, fuck, if you're gonna do it, just do it. I was like, Oh my God, my body, I wasn't going to get up, but my body was so uncomfortable. And I was like, Okay, hold on, [00:07:00] relax. You're not there right now. Also, I've been to weddings. I've been to a party. I can do it. It's just going to be difficult.
Zoe: But also being by yourself is the scary thing for me, at least. I think if I was ever going to relapse. It would be in a situation where I'm by myself.
Heather: I think so too. Or it would be with somebody who is like a yes man, you know, and lets me do whatever I want. I think I'm gonna be okay, but I was very stressed out about it, and then it like made me spiral into like, Wait, can I do this? How am I gonna be fucking sober forever? Everything feels like it's moving around in my head at all times, but I think, okay, this is, this is why things are hard so that we can, like, talk about them later.
Zoe: Yeah, I went to an open bar with my family for their work party in Victoria last year, and as soon as we walked in, people were, Asking me if I wanted a cocktail or wine and I'm like, no, and then I sat down and they're asking me [00:08:00] again. No Asked me halfway through dinner. No, how many times do I have to say? No, I don't want a freaking drink
Heather: I know it's annoying and it is annoying you have to be like, this is just the way that the world is
Zoe: Yeah
Heather: I have to work around it, but it's like come on. There was somebody on reddit. I'm on reddit now There was someone that was like you can call hotels Before and say like I'm sober like can you make accommodations and
Zoe: that's great. You should definitely do that
Heather: I'm wondering just because I just want to keep myself as safe as possible And like if there's alcohol like let's say I came into my room and there was a bottle of champagne. I'm fine I'm not gonna drink it, but I would love for that to not be there.
Let's get into some sober news. Shall we?
Zoe: Mm hmm
Heather: A Melbourne coroner is calling for tighter alcohol delivery laws after the tragic death of 30 year old Kathleen Arnold, who had a blood alcohol level 11 times the legal limit. The coroner stated, The circumstance in which Kathleen died tragically illustrate the consequences of convenient alcohol [00:09:00] delivery services.
She added that it undermined the tireless efforts of Kathleen's mother and clinical team who supported her. The coroner recommends a ban on alcohol deliveries from 10 p. m. to 10 a. m. and a two hour delay between ordering and delivery. So she ordered alcohol to her house and then she was found dead. Like, I guess she drank too much, drank herself to death.
Um, I just want to get your thoughts on it because I have a few.
Zoe: I think that the way that alcohol is at our fingertips at all times, especially now that it's in convenience stores, it is pretty crazy. But now that you've given it to us like this, you can't take it away.
Heather: No.
Zoe: You can't take it away.
Heather: Do you think that even taking it away would work?
Zoe: I mean, No, maybe?
Heather: Yeah.
Zoe: Like, you wouldn't be able to order another bottle of [00:10:00] wine at 10pm. That would just make me go more crazy, and then you would be able to find those illegal sites and make it more risky.
Heather: Literally, that's the whole cycle. That's the whole thing, like, putting restrictions on alcohol. On a micro level for a person that person is gonna drink in the woods. They're gonna go out at night They're gonna order it from somebody. I mean in some cases sell themselves to get alcohol When I hear restrictions around alcohol, it scares me because i'm like, oh that person is not ready to quit
Zoe: Yeah,
Heather: when I read this I in my head I was picturing her as like a 50 year old mom But it says she's 30 and I'm like, holy fuck, I'm 30. This is my story. This is me. I think the thing also that sticks out is the immediate blame game where they go, this delivery service undermined the mom and the clinical team. Hey, that's not anyone's fault, but this girl,
Zoe: this is this girl's fault.
Heather: I mean,
Zoe: it's not a fault. It's just, she had a addiction and [00:11:00] it killed her.
Heather: I think it's, I think it's really interesting that we. Or that this coroner is trying to place blame on the system. And yes, the system is a huge problem. And it really affects everybody on the street and with substance abuse. But I just feel like it's like prohibition. You take everyone's alcohol away.
They're going to do other shit.
Zoe: Yeah. Well, if it's available to us at all times right now and then you take it away, good luck.
Heather: Yeah. I mean, there were times during COVID where like I could not find alcohol where like it was. 10: 30, and this was probably before the wine rack started delivering. And so I was like going through restaurants and this and I was like in my head being like who can I call right now?
Zoe: Dial a bottle.
Heather: Yeah. Oh, I didn't know about that.
Zoe: Dial a bottle, literally, you could dial a bottle at any time, at any night. Like, it saved me from any, like, after parties I threw back in the day.
Heather: Oh, yeah.
Zoe: That's how I ordered my booze when I was 17, because I was scared to go to the LCBO with [00:12:00] my fake ID. So I would dial a bottle, and they weren't as strict about my ID. So I did that for probably a month or two, and then I got the nerve to go to LC, and then it worked. Never dialed a bottle again until it was like two, three in the morning and I needed to.
Heather: Yeah. Wow.
Zoe: Yeah.
Heather: That's so crafty. You're crafty, but you're an alcoholic. So we're fucking crafty bitches. I have a friend who her husband had to call the delivery service in their small town because they're in a small town. They only had like one person that delivers alcohol. He had to call that person and say, no more. You can't deliver to this house, but I feel sorry for this girl and R. I. P. Kathleen, but this is
Zoe: R. I. P. She was one of us.
Heather: She was one of us.
Zoe: That's what I always think when I hear, like, alcoholics die or, well, someone that I know dies. It's like, they were just one of us. Like, it's so, it's so sad.
Heather: And I'd like to guess that this girl probably didn't want to die.
Zoe: No, I don't think anyone [00:13:00] ever wants to die. It just happens.
Heather: I think when you're drinking and you're ordering alcohol in the morning, you can't get through the morning. So if you want to survive you have to drink and that's hard for other people to understand. But when I read this article, that's what it sounds like to me because that's what I did.
Zoe: Yeah, she was actually just trying to live.
Heather: Yeah. And get through the day.
Zoe: Yeah.
Heather: Oh, so sad. Okay. On to something a little more fun. Celebrity sober news. Paris Jackson shared on Instagram recently this past week that she is five years sober from heroin. Congratulations Paris Jackson. Very sober congratulations. I think if Your dad is Michael Jackson, and he dies, and then the whole world thinks that they know your pain, and then everyone starts to be like, well, you're probably not even his kid, and then they start to be like, well, also, he's a criminal. I think at that point, you can do heroin.
Zoe: A hundred percent. A [00:14:00] hundred percent. Yeah, she obviously had lots of trauma, shit to figure out, and it's amazing that she got sober.
Heather: It's amazing.
Zoe: Like, heroin's a really Gnarly substance, so I can't imagine like how hard that would be. I think, fuck yeah, Paris.
Heather: The next story, we're gonna play a little game Zoe.
Zoe: Oh no, I'm scared.
Heather: It's called two truths and a lie about this next celeb. He's back from rehab. He's got a collaboration with popular fashion brand Reformation, and he just bought a fish tank. Just kidding, Zoe. These are all truths, our boy petey.
Zoe: Pete Davidson.
Heather: Our boy Pete Davidson.
Zoe: He bought the fish tank before he went to rehab.
Heather: Yeah. Yeah. Four months he went to rehab.
Zoe: Four months. I really want to know how much that rehab was.
Heather: Me too. Yeah. Do you know where he went?
Zoe: No idea.
Heather: Me either. I'm sure he's bumped around.
Zoe: Yeah.
Heather: He's been to rehab. Multiple times.
Zoe: I met a guy in rehab, and he went [00:15:00] to rehab in India, and I want to say it was nine months. Yeah. Yeah.
Heather: Whoa.
Zoe: I know, and then he came back to mine. He's, yeah, that didn't help him.
Heather: Wow, that's intense.
Zoe: I hope he's doing good.
Heather: I hope he's doing good too. There's a girl that I met at the dog park, obviously, and her ex, they were in Mexico, and her ex had been smoking meth. For years, and she didn't know about it, which we'll get into that, but he went nuts one night, had like some trip, and so she called the cops, and they took him to a rehab, and he's there for something like six months, like he has to be there, and apparently it's like a prison.
Whoa.
Zoe: Not a good rehab, I bet. No. But sometimes it's what you need.
Heather: It is. And I would like to talk about this back and forth with Pete Davidson because we've had this conversation where Pete Davidson is very open, love that, about his mental health struggles, but has been in and out of rehab many, many times. What's the point and is it going to [00:16:00] take?
Zoe: Yeah. I just have a theory that these celebrities go to rehab, fix their life a little bit, and then come back, everyone is okay with them again, and they've rebuilt their relationships because they're sober for four months, and then they're allowed to do movies again, and then they're allowed to go off and have a hiatus again, and then the cycle continues, and then they have to go back to rehab five years later. I really hope that Pete Davidson wants to be sober forever, but I can't fathom that that's what he's trying to do.
Heather: Right. If you knew, That you had the money, like for reference, our respective rehabs were around 30, 000. If you knew that you had $30, 000 to spend on rehab, you could go next month. Do you think that that would derail your sobriety? Like, if you knew that you could just go and get sober again every year.
Zoe: No, I hated the fact that my parents had to spend [00:17:00] that much money on me to get better. Like, that's why I feel bad even going to get a therapist now. Obviously, I would pay for a portion of it, but like, they would pay for the majority of it, and that would be another thing that they're fucking paying for, for me.
Heather: I know, but it is your life.
Zoe: Yeah.
Heather: You know, I think that's hard when you think about your mental health as a burden.
Zoe: Yeah.
Heather: And especially when there's money involved. I think it is so fucking important, and I think guys, we're just gonna This is the goal of 2025 to get Zoe into therapy.
Zoe: Yeah, I feel like ,I really would want to, but I also am just so fine to go to meetings and have my support there, um, that I don't feel like I necessarily really need therapy because my mental health is good with my yeah with my fellow addicts
Heather: And I do forget how much a a does for people in that respect community is so helpful I don't have that and so my therapist is basically on speed dial. I do [00:18:00] wonder if there are a lot of celebrities that we hear about that are Working in more of a harm reduction model. I don't think that we're playing the same game here like for you and me Rehab was the last option. For us, that was the last resort. But if it's not for you, like these celebrities, if you can go every year, Maybe that's not so bad.
Zoe: Yeah,
Heather: I don't know. I don't like it. That to me is a loophole and I'll take it and I'll run but It is interesting to think maybe people's sobriety Really is based on their privilege.
Zoe: Yeah
Heather: right ? And I mean we know that
Zoe: 100 percent because we were privileged enough to go to rehab and thank God that we got sober that way Right a lot of people like don't get into rehabs and they're on a waiting list for six months and all this Stuff and it's so... the system is not correct in any sort of way.
Heather: No And I think when we talk about harm reduction on the street It's like that is the option right like Pete Davidson He [00:19:00] can go in and out of rehab as much as he wants you and me We got one shot at this people that live on the street and are using substances Why would you get sober?
Zoe: Mm-hmm . Yeah.
Heather: Harm reduction works makes more sense if you don't have a place to go.
Zoe: Right.
Heather: Or a roof over your head and then you have us in the middle.
Zoe: Yeah.
Heather: And then you have the celebrity. So everyone's sobriety. It's weird.
Zoe: Yeah.
Heather: I'd imagine the goal is completely sober, but I don't know.
Zoe: Yeah. I do always think like if anything were to happen
Heather: mm-hmm .
Zoe: I could go to the rehab again.
Heather: Yeah.
Zoe: You know, like it is a possibility in both of our lives that like we could, could...
Heather: totally.
Zoe: We could go.
Heather: Rehab's the best.
Zoe: Rehab was really fun.
Heather: But we don't need to go back.
Zoe: I don't want to go back.
Heather: You can't afford to go back.
Zoe: I don't want to go back and forth and back and forth. Like, this is what I want, sobriety is what I want, and now I feel very content and free with my life.
Heather: Me too. It does make me happy that Pete Davidson and other celebrities are [00:20:00] opening up about their mental health struggles and their substance abuse. Going back and forth to rehab probably takes some of the fear out of it.
I mean, honestly, speaking of which, today we want to talk about fear. Do you have any fear putting your addiction out there on blast.
Zoe: Honestly, no. I think that I'm pretty used to talking about my addiction because I go to meetings quite Frequently and I've had to do the steps and like me and you talk about it 24 7 even if we're not podcasting
Heather: Yeah
Zoe: and I do love talking about it when we get into like the nitty gritty shit that I've done in the past I won't be so excited to share all my dirty laundry online. But like, it's something that all of us alcoholics addicts have done, so I don't feel like I'm disgusting or anything. I just feel like I'm an alcoholic. And that's that.
Heather: And that's exactly true.
Zoe: Yeah.
Heather: I go back and forth. I I have [00:21:00] not stopped talking about sobriety for the almost two years I've been out of rehab. Um, it is my favorite thing to talk about. I do have this little fear that comes upon me at night. And I'm like, what if I relapse? And now I have to tell you, I have to tell listeners, that does scare me, the thought of that does scare me, but I also think that in putting myself out here, in putting ourselves out here, I think whatever happens, happens, and that is sobriety.
Zoe: Exactly. And it's like accountability, and the truest form, and everyone's sobriety is different, and their journeys are different, and Unfortunately, relapse happens, but we're gonna try not to relapse.
Heather: We're gonna try not to relapse. Overwhelmingly, when I tell people that I'm sober, they're like, oh, tell me more, or, or a little, like, shocked that I'm so open about it.
Zoe: Yeah. Well, I think a lot of people are like, oh, like, you are an alcoholic? They're like, you [00:22:00] don't look like one.
Heather: Yeah.
Zoe: I'm like, oh, like, what does an alcoholic look like to you? And maybe if you seen me three years ago, you would say, oh, yeah, for sure you're an alcoholic.
Heather: Yeah. Yeah. My dad asked me this, he's like, if you go on dates, if, LOL .
If you go on dates, will you tell people? And I'm like, yeah. And I don't even think that's like a plan. It's just like who I am. And also like, yeah, I need to keep myself fucking safe. And if you're afraid of me being sober, well then look at your own drinking baby. Were you afraid to get sober?
Zoe: I I honestly didn't even know what sobriety meant when I was going into rehab.
All I knew was that I didn't want to die and I didn't want to keep living the way that I was living. I was not looking ahead in the future being like, Oh, I'm going to be sober now because I'm going to rehab. I wasn't looking that far into the future at all. I was just focused on trying to make it the next 30 seconds of my life.
I think I called. My rehab being like I need to come in [00:23:00] Listen, you guys gotta have me please And they said no you have to go to the hospital first.
Heather: Oh to detox.
Zoe: I went to the hospital But the hospital was taking so long to do anything. I think I was in there for five hours. So I Left.
Heather: Yeah
Zoe: didn't have my phone and I went and knocked on a random person's doorbell Saying I don't know how to get home.
Like, can you please help me get home? They called me a taxi To my house. I think I might have been in Etobicoke.
Heather: okay,
Zoe: they ordered me a taxi all the way home to my downtown address.
Heather: Why did you go to the hospital in Etobicoke?
Zoe: Because my rehab was by Etobicoke.
Heather: Oh, okay.
Zoe: And I think I was like trying to knock on the doorstep of rehab and they're like, no, like we don't want you here. Go to the hospital.
Heather: Were you drunk?
Zoe: Yeah, 100%. Wow. But moral of the story was like I was just trying to get there. I didn't know what it was gonna be at all. I just gave up. On everything and I surrendered to whatever this next [00:24:00] chapter was going to be. I didn't know it was going to be long term sobriety until like two weeks in.
Heather: Yeah, I think I was, I was scared to go because I knew that that meant I can't drink anymore. And I was forward thinking. I was very much like, if I stop drinking today, there's no champagne on my wedding. There's no celebration of like, bachelorette parties or weddings or whatever. But I was much more scared to stay drunk.
Zoe: Yeah.
Heather: I was like, As I'm forward thinking, no champagne on my wedding, I'm like, I could be 45, with a kid, fucked out of my mind, and then I'm gonna be drunk for the rest of my life? Holy shit. That scared me way more than getting sober. So I was like, you know what? Let's just do it.
Zoe: Yeah, obviously it's scary, but like I couldn't be scared because I was just like so caught up in the chaos of my life.
Heather: Yeah, you were like numbed.
Zoe: I was so just numb and
Heather: Ready to go.
Zoe: Ready.
Heather: Yeah
Zoe: I guess.
Heather: That's ready to go. Did [00:25:00] rehab scare you? Because for me, the idea of rehab, I was like, what is that? It's going to be a bunch of junkies, detoxing, shivering, throwing up.
Zoe: I don't know, at that point, I was like, yeah, I'm a junkie. Like, I, I'm fine. Like, I don't know. It can't be worse than this, bro.
Heather: Like, I guess that was at the point where I was like, I just drink alcohol. Like, I'm not like the rest of them. Yes, you are.
Zoe: Yeah. No, we're all the same. I really thought in my head. I was like, okay, so am I going to scan my way out of this? What can we do to like, not go?
Heather: I'm so proud of you sitting here being just telling your story. It's so much, you know
Zoe: it is so crazy.
Heather: It really is.
Zoe: No, it's like, we're literally super human, but also like if we can do it. Anyone can fucking do it. We're not special in any way possible. Maybe yes We're very fortunate people that got sent to rehab.
Heather: Yeah
Zoe: um, and especially that my rehab took me in in 24 hours But it's because I was banging on their door. Let's be real
Heather: You were like mary being turned away at the end Like no room get out of [00:26:00] your junkie back to the bridge under the bridge you go Take your needles.
Zoe: I want to find that family who I knocked on the door and they like called the cab for me
Heather: It's a netflix movie
Zoe: No, I have no idea who they are, but if you're listening, thank you so much.
Heather: Aww. I have this image of myself leaving rehab. It's like such a visceral memory. I was leaving, I had my like goodbye graduation, and I cried the whole time. And then I was leaving, and I was like, this feeling in my body, I was like, Oh, I can't go. I'm not ready to go. What are you talking about? I just got sober. I've been drinking for 10 years. I got sober. I've been here for six weeks, and now you're sending me. Back? Are you fucking crazy? Like, I am a baby. I didn't know anything. There's no world I felt so fragile. I was like, I'm gonna go out there and drink. I was like, pretty sure I didn't want to, but I was pretty sure I wasn't gonna be able to handle it. So, so scary, and I feel like the early sober days, ugh, they make me so [00:27:00] nervous for her. Like, I was so nervous for little Heather. She was so scared. And I'm wondering, like, early sober Zoe. What was that like for you? Because now, the way I look at you, I'm like, you're so confident, you're going to raves, you have all these friends.
Zoe: I mean, I think a level of it is the fact that I do go to meetings and I've done the steps and like it is like you're supposed to be free after and like you can go any place anytime and like be confident and okay with it.
Heather: Did you feel that?
Zoe: If you do the steps, early stages, I was super nervous to leave rehab. Obviously, and I had like this guy I was seeing from rehab, and he was out already, and so as soon as I got out, he just immediately started texting me.
Heather: Oh, because you didn't have your phone in rehab?
Zoe: No.
Heather: Okay.
Zoe: So as soon as I got out, he was like, you need to get a sponsor, you need to get the steps.
Heather: Yeah.
Zoe: And We would go to meetings together all the time. I eventually got a sponsor through his sponsor, and then he relapsed.
Heather: Wow.
Zoe: [00:28:00] But, like, he did teach me a lot of what I needed to know in those early stages. After that is when I really found myself.
Heather: I It's funny that you say that, and I also wonder, other listeners who have been to rehab Mm hmm. The rehab relationships that you make are really intense
Zoe: very intense.
Heather: They're very fast. They're very intense. It's like when you're a kid and you go on a school field trip overnight for the first time and you're immediately in love with like a boy or a girl or you have like you make friends with people you'd never really friends with because you like are in survival mode a little bit. It's trauma bonding.
Zoe: Looking back, I don't think I actually liked him. If I'm being honest, the counselors I found more attractive.
Heather: Because they're telling you what to do. That is why.
Zoe: That's hot.
Heather: Well, and that's how things get dangerous, right? So like addicts often are the ones who open these private rehabs, which is amazing because you can relate. You know what people are going through. You're fighting for your own cause. But that responsibility comes [00:29:00] with a lot of pressure and when you're the head of it, I think that people, that goes to their head. And when you know that all of these, like, sad addicts are coming in for help, especially the little girls, come, and by girls I mean, like, women.
Zoe: Yeah.
Heather: Coming in there and you know that anything you say, they're gonna eat it up like chocolate, like alcohol.
Zoe: Mm hmm.
Heather: That leads to some dangerous dynamics. But I think the rehab relationships are great. I loved my rehab boyfriend. What am I talking about? I still love my rehab boyfriend. Um, I have like great friends from there.
But I would like to know other people's rehab boyfriend stories. Because you, I don't know any, anyone I've talked to that's been to rehab is like, yeah, my, I got in trouble for like, he was massaging my feet or we sat too close on the couch. Because there are rules. I liked that it was co ed because I'm, slutty and I love having crushes and I just I like the dynamic of boys and girls. I think that's fun. If I did it again, for sure, I would just do [00:30:00] just, just female exclusive.
Zoe: A hundred percent.
Heather: I know that that's good for me. When you were thinking about getting sober, when you were in rehab, and we've talked about the amends and I wonder, was there anything you were like, Oh God, now I'm sober and I have to confront these specific things.
Zoe: I didn't forward think at all. And that's like the way to do it, to be honest. Just live in the moment.
Heather: This is great.
Zoe: I read a lot of books in rehab saying like, to live in the moment and like, that is a big reason why everything has worked out for me so far. I haven't rushed anything. I, I never thought too much into it.
Heather: Hmm. That's so interesting. Interesting. Because. I am such an overthinker.
Zoe: That surprises me though. Like it does seem like you're so confident.
Heather: Wow. That's really nice because that is like not how I feel. I overthink everything. So I think to hear you be like, no, I took it one day at a time. That's the work. That to me is so [00:31:00] important. There's no right way to get sober. There's no right way to do it. But like, I think having you sit here and be like, I took my time. It's a really important thing. It's cliche, but it works.
Zoe: It's so cliche, but it's literally the only thing that you can do. And like, I love at the meetings when people say like, happy 24. Like, I think that's the cutest thing ever.
Heather: Wait, what's that?
Zoe: Like happy 24 hours, like one day.
Heather: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I have a 24 hour chip. Yeah. I have a 24 hour and a one month, I think.
Zoe: Yeah.
Heather: Love that.
Zoe: Love it.
Heather: For me, the fear, the reason I didn't want to get sober was because I was going to get sober and realize how much weight I'd gained, how unpretty I'd become, the things that I had done to my body that I was able to block out. By drinking. I knew that nothing fit.
Zoe: Did you look at yourself in rehab?
Heather: Yes, but we didn't have that many mirrors. The only mirror we had [00:32:00] in rehab was like the one circle one. In my bathroom. So there wasn't any full body mirrors except for the gym and I wasn't going to the gym. I did make a pact. I was like, you're gonna go to the gym every single day and after six weeks you're gonna be so fit. No. No, which is dumb. And by the way, if you go to rehab and you like think you're gonna like work on yourself, you can do that too, but I focused all of my energy on not drinking and that was enough for me.
Zoe: Yeah,
Heather: but I think the body stuff was really hard. That scared the shit out of me because I was like, I don't know what I'm gonna do if I get sober and have to leave the house and have friends in this body that I'm in that I absolutely fucking hated.
It was the reason I was drinking, one of the reasons. You know what, though? I took six weeks in rehab to focus on anything but my body. Nobody in rehab knew what I had looked like before. They didn't know any of my struggles, not really. They had never seen me in a smaller body, in a body that I deemed, like, you know, um, allowed [00:33:00] to exist. So I was able to show up just as myself in the body that I was in, and people liked me, and we were friends, and you know, I had a boyfriend in rehab, and like, It showed me, and this is still hard for me now, but it showed me that a very important thing for me is to realize that my body's not the most important thing about me.
So when I ended up leaving rehab, I did have panic attacks when I was going out with the girls for the first time and my jeans didn't fit. And I was like, I just went to rehab for six fucking weeks. Why isn't everything perfect? Why don't my jeans fit? Why isn't my body t?
Zoe: It's not gonna happen in six weeks, babe.
Heather: It's not. But those stints of, like, hatred towards myself were Shorter lived
Zoe: yeah,
Heather: because I just had priorities in different spaces I could go out and be like my priority is to not drink tonight And so like the fears that I had leaving rehab and also the relapse I was so afraid I was gonna relapse but now I'm like grateful for those fears because I can look back and be like Yeah, bitch, you did
that.
Yeah. You didn't have a
choice, but you [00:34:00] did it.
Zoe: Yeah, I know. Fears can like really hold you back and it is important just to recognize them.
Heather: Um, and I think too, I was saying this to somebody recently where, Oh. Maybe my sister where I texted her and I was like, I'm good, but I'm thinking about alcohol, like I'm having serious cravings because once I text it, I feel so much better.
And I think there's also a thing of being like, I'm having a craving. I don't want to say it because it's going to freak out. Everybody around me. Yeah, so I'm really grateful that I didn't have a husband. I don't have a husband my family I love them, but they don't live with me I don't have anyone around me to freak out Whereas my other friends I wonder if you feel this as well who have Spouses and children and family members that are very like up their asses about everything I find that their sobriety seems fucking harder because they're so worried about everyone else's emotions like oh, are you going to a.
a? Are you making sure like, you know, I mean because then i'll drink
Zoe: I think That's a hundred percent true. I think [00:35:00] it's way easier for me right now to be sober and not have to rely on anybody else. All I have is myself and I can handle that.
Heather: You can handle yourself. Yes. I find when the other emotions start to come in. That's where I'm like
Zoe: Yeah, I can't handle everyone else's business because I used to try to control it so much and addiction Like I used to control everything in addiction and now like if I'm trying to control anything It does trigger me like all the old habits that I had when I was drinking like the jealousy the manipulation the lying the fear all of that is Potential triggers for me now if I feel any of those Yeah,
Heather: it's hard because we go through life and life is scary. I mean like this whole fucking year has been Insane with like war and politics in the world and all of those things are scary then we talk about dating boys the future it's very hard to try and Stay [00:36:00] away from fear when it is in everyday life and fear is your trigger for drinking
Zoe: Yeah
Heather: like my safe space was to come home grab a bottle of wine sit on the couch crack it and then just like Drink knowing that there's two more bottles in the fridge. That is the most safe I can feel as a person, as a woman, as anything. I don't have that anymore. So do I feel as safe? Not really. Because I don't have like a thing to fall back on or a thing to numb out my brain if I get scared. But the work is always going. Yeah, the work is always going.
Zoe: Yeah. I like saying that it's never Easy, it just gets easier.
Heather: Yeah
Zoe: with time one of my friends is coming up on one year and she's like I feel like I haven't done enough like I feel like there's more I should be doing And I'm like, babe, this is only your one year. You have so much more time to do the things that you're like pushing yourself towards.
Heather: Also, not to mention, actively not drinking for [00:37:00] one year is so much work. It's, it's like building a house. It's so much work. It's almost impossible to do. You're also fighting cravings, fighting relapse, fighting all these things. One year's the hardest?
Zoe: Yeah. People usually say that 18 months is the hardest chip to get because that's like a year and a half and 18 month chip. You made it through 18 months.
Heather: Yeah. Well, I remember feeling this around my first year and now that I'm coming up on my second year, I am feeling like do I need to be sober? You know, I don't actually think that but those thoughts come into my brain where I'm like, was it really that bad? Two years is so long. Some people do that where they're just like they don't drink for a while because they were really depressed and then they have a new mindset and then they can go back and drink and I'm like, why are you doing that? Oh, because you're coming up on your two years and you're trying to figure out your why.
Zoe: Yeah,
Heather: you know?
Zoe: Do you actually look at people who are drinking and are like, Oh, fuck, I want to drink.
Heather: Um, Only, sometimes, the cold pinot [00:38:00] grigio after trying to park in this goddamn city. Sitting down and having a pinot grigio would, like, really make me feel good. But then, after that moment, I'm good.
Zoe: I honestly don't even think that I'm, like, looking at people who are drinking. I'm like, oh, I wish I could do that because I don't want a glass. I want a lake of wine, you know?
Heather: Oh, that's the thing.
Zoe: Like, it's not, like, I don't crave socializing and having a glass of wine. That's not what I crave. I crave. You want to get fucked. I crave being fucked up.
Heather: Yeah, I that's something I say to myself out loud when I'm like, oh, I really want a glass of wine and I'm like no I don't want one. I want three bottles and I want the party to never end.
Zoe: I think fears are also very important in recovery It's a part of one of the steps that you have to write out all your fears so you can confront them and look at Them and then like say goodbye to them and then you move on.
Heather: Oh, I like that.
Zoe: Yeah, maybe you should do the steps
Heather: Ugh, maybe I should do the steps.
Zoe: I'll get a therapist and you'll do the steps. And then we [00:39:00] can report back.
Heather: I mean, yeah, we could do that. I mean, I have made all my amends. I've done that and it actually wasn't as hard as I think it is for other people because I was like pretty good at staying away from everyone.
Zoe: Yeah.
Heather: You know?
Zoe: Anyone that you had like you would consistently like call that you had to make amends with? Like drunk call?
Heather: Drunk calling? Nah.
Zoe: Any like guys that you would?
Heather: No, they were calling me. Also, I don't know that I want to make amends to men, to be honest with you.
Zoe: Yeah.
Heather: For what, for what? Letting me come into your house when I was wasted and you had sex with me?
Zoe: Yeah.
Heather: Literally, for what? Like, you get better. You apologize to me. When I just got out of rehab, this guy texted me if I wanted to go and like, hang out and drink. And I was like
Zoe: I hate that so much.
Heather: I'm in, I was, I just, I told you that I went to rehab. Yeah. So,
Zoe: I don't think I've had someone Say like, oh, you're sober. Let's get a drink. That is the most fucked up shit I've ever heard.
Heather: Oh my god. Yeah [00:40:00] I went to a wedding and someone was like, oh, well if you they knew I was so I said I'm sober and they're like Oh, well, you know if you did drink tonight, I would make sure you got home safe. Why?
Zoe: Disgusting and also like what makes you think I would relapse with you
Heather: for you
Zoe: for you Disgusting.
Heather: And I think that's also the thing about getting sober is that, like, I'm listening to everything. I hear everything you say, bullshit. You know? It's such a crazy thing to be like, hey, do you want me to, like, drive you home when you get drunk and then I'll fuck you and then I'm not gonna be there for your, like, relapse panic after.
Zoe: Ugh.
Heather: It's crazy.
Zoe: No, I hate that.
Heather: But that's also just, like, managing men and managing partnership and
Zoe: Well, that's a, I think that's a fear of mine, is like, when I'm getting into a relationship next, like how I'm, how I'm gonna show up in that relationship. And we talk a lot about, like, if we'll be in monogamous relationships or what our [00:41:00] relationships will look like in the future with men or women. That's, like, the next step of my life that I need to really come to terms with and figure out how I'm gonna deal with when I'm, like, looking for a relationship.
Heather: And do you feel like that has to do with your sobriety or more just, like, Generally what you want out of
Zoe: Generally what I want, like I think that I've been single now for almost two and a half years, like however long I've been sober. Um, and I've just really been trying to navigate, like, what I like in a guy, what I want in a partner, and trying to vocalize that and, like, talk about it with men who are still drinking. It's, they don't get it.
Heather: No.
Zoe: They don't get it, and it's so frustrating to try to explain. And I love that you get it, but I guess it's just, like, something I'm gonna have to accept that my partner will never understand.
Heather: And I guess that's true unless they are an addict. Do you know, do you want someone [00:42:00] that's sober? I, I don't know.
Zoe: I think that I would be open to it, um, because it would obviously mean that I'm more in common with them.
Heather: Yeah.
Zoe: And that they would be able to understand when I'm going through weird cravings or emotions. They understand because I'm sure that they're going to be going through it too, and then I'm going to have to understand on their behalf of what that is. Um, and I know my biggest fear is relapsing, personally, and then I would have a fear of them relapsing, so that just add, it's added fear, but on the opposite side, I don't want a partner who has, Beer every night, that doesn't seem appealing to me. Sure, Once every couple weekends when you're going out and you're drinking, that's totally fine.
Heather: Yeah,
Zoe: but I think that I'm open to either but not like a regular drinker. I can't be with a regular drinker. No, absolutely not.
Heather: No, [00:43:00] I can't either. I think it would be nice to be with someone that's sober.
Zoe: I think so too.
Heather: Part of the like managing their relapse or their addiction, it does scare me. Because, yeah, like I, I judge myself. I know what I do. I'm a sneaky fucking weasel. So if I'm also with a sneaky weasel, I'm gonna be like, what are you doing?
Zoe: Yeah, but it is better to, like, have someone who does understand you and
Heather: Pros and cons.
Zoe: And who, like, will make you a mocktail and just cuddle with you without pissing the bed. I don't know.
Heather: Well, totally. And I think there's a lot of people who say, like, well, what do you do? What do you go out? When you go out, what do you, you don't drink. What do you do?
Zoe: I love a first date ice cream date. Personally, in the summer, that's a great first date. Dinner sometimes can be a lot of pressure.
Heather: Yeah.
Zoe: Even going to a restaurant, like a fancy restaurant, and ordering the creme brulee, like, I don't know.
Heather: Yeah, that's true.
Zoe: Getting a dessert.
Heather: I also love to get a mocktail at a restaurant. I love an N. A. [00:44:00] beer. I was worried at first. I was like, is this going to trigger me? It doesn't. I just like the ritual of drinking something. But the taste of it bothers you, right?
Zoe: Well, they say, at the meetings, they say that you shouldn't drink, like, non alcoholic beer, or non alcoholic wine. I think mocktails is fine because it's just juice, unless it's, like, a non alcoholic margarita.
Heather: Like a seed lip
Zoe: yeah.
Heather: Yeah.
Zoe: Yeah, a gin thing. Because it's, like, too close to the real thing, and then you can easily manipulate your mind to be like, oh, This is basically alcoholic. Let's order an alcoholic one.
Heather: Yeah, or my brain will be like, oh, well, what if they had brought me a real one and I didn't know?
Does that technically count?
Now, if you can look into the future, I'm sorry to do that to you.
Zoe: Oh my god.
Heather: But is there anything that, that makes you nervous or that you're maybe not even scared, but [00:45:00] maybe sad you won't be able to do with drinking? Like I mentioned before, the wedding thing, if I ever were to get married, You know, it's a little bit sad, or that I can't go on vacation with my partner and like, have a nice glass of wine under the stars, like, does anything like that make you sad, or?
Zoe: Yeah, at the beginning I'm sure it did, now I'm like, it's the society just like instilling in our brains that we need to be drunk for every occasion. Yeah. Absolutely not, it's to feed these alcohol companies, and no, I'm not gonna do that.
Heather: I think, I think there are things when I look forward, like, Oh, when I, if I ever have a baby and that baby is screaming and won't shut up, will I want to have a drink? Probably. I am like able to look at things like that and be like, this will probably be a trigger for me. That will probably be a trigger for me, but there isn't anything. There were things in the beginning where I was scared. Feels like the right word because I. It was scary to be like, how am I supposed to live a life and not go to a bachelor party and drink? How am I supposed to be [00:46:00] sober on my wedding? How am I supposed to have kids and not drink with the other moms and fucking complain about our kids? I don't know now that I've been through two years of this. I'm like bitch. I complain just like the rest of them
Zoe: Yeah,
Heather: like I talk shit at dinner whether I'm drinking or not.
Zoe: I know we're we're a good time
Heather: We are a good sober.
Zoe: We weren't a good time drunk. Let's be real I mean
Heather: and that was scary. That shit was scary
Zoe: like thinking back on the Situations I put myself in scary scary scary scary scary. Yeah fear fear fear fear like
Heather: but were you scared?
Zoe: No, because I had alcohol.
Heather: Yeah, I'm gonna ask you one final question. This one I'm actually, I didn't write this down, but I'm really interested in this. Was there ever a point in your addiction where you're drinking and you scared yourself enough to be like, oh, I'm not doing that again.
Zoe: Well, I think the time that I ended up in that guy's car and everyone was smoking meth and people were falling asleep at the wheel.[00:47:00]
Heather: Expecting like, yeah, like once I was like really throwing up in my bathroom. It's like, no, I was on my way to bed. Brooklyn. With a meth head.
Zoe: I had no idea how I ended up in that car, but I did, and I kept having to wake up this guy who was falling asleep at the wheel so we wouldn't die. So yeah, at that point I'm like, what the fuck, how did we end up in this situation? But there's multiple stories of that kind where I am like, oh god.
Heather: Well yeah, because then that is met with. Alcohol resilience and risk resilience and fear resilience which you have when you're an addict because again the only thing scarier Than what you're doing is to not be able to drink
Zoe: and yeah, like I got through that So I can get through anything.
Heather: Yeah,
Zoe: like I'm fine.
Heather: Oh my god. Yeah.
Zoe: I didn't get killed or raped or kidnapped
Heather: Yeah, you don't think
Zoe: probably got raped though
Heather: and maybe kidnapped.
Zoe: I might have been kidnapped
Heather: Yeah, I was ripe for [00:48:00] the kidnapping mind you I did send my location around but I think There were times in my sobriety for sure where I, especially at the end where I was having heart palpitations and I was having chest and arm pains. There were times before too where yeah, I was roofied twice in New York. Things that should have scared me enough to make me stop drinking.
Zoe: Nothing was gonna stop us.
Heather: Don't care.
Zoe: No like the lowest lows where people would be like Oh, yeah, and then you got sober, right? Like when I help tell people I got a DUI They're like, oh and then you stopped and then you went to rehab after your DUI. Absolutely not. That wasn't my lowest point
Heather: Yeah
Zoe: like it just gets slower and I think yeah when you're in addiction like Everything's happening to you and you playing the victim and everything like you can get through anything with booze and it is scary to break that cut because alcohol is all you know, like the substance that you're addicted to is all you know, and that is [00:49:00] what causes you this relief and to say goodbye to that is like totally the hardest thing to do. But if you don't look at it too long term, like, and if you just do focus on like, okay, today, let's maybe not rely on alcohol for every single thing I'm doing in my life. It will get there eventually.
Heather: Yeah. I think that's a great way to end it. I love that.
Zoe: Wow. Am I a spokesperson ?
Heather: Spokesperson and honestly, Zoe... So proud of you.
Zoe: Honestly, i'm proud of you, baby.
Heather: Thank you
Thanks for listening to Girl, Undrunk you can follow us on instagram and tiktok at girl undrunk podcast And or send me an email at heather at girl undrunk dot com And before we go, thank you to our amazing producer Ariane Michaud and support from her team at Consciously Produced, Martin Nuñez- [00:50:00] Bonilla for the graphics, Ian Sitt for setting up our sound, and Daniel James for the music and final edits.This podcast would not be possible without you.
