#05: Throw a Rock and I Hate a Man
In this laid-back episode of Girl, Undrunk, Heather and Zoe catch up on life, sobriety, and friendship, including Heather’s first-ever solo sober vacation in Tulum. They reflect on what it’s like to travel sober, navigate new experiences without alcohol, and receive early feedback on the podcast—both supportive and unexpected. Blending personal reflections with candid conversation, this episode explores sobriety, growth, and staying connected while building something new. Like any honest chat between friends, not everything gets said—but there’s plenty more to come.
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Throw a Rock and I Hate a Man: Transcript
Heather: [00:00:00] This podcast covers sensitive topics that may be difficult for some listeners. Please take care while listening.
Welcome to Girl Undrunk. I'm your host, Heather, and this week we're keeping it a little casual as Zoe and I catch up on life, including my very first solo sober vacation in Tulum. Of course, like any good chat with friends, we didn't get to everything we wanted to, but hey, that just means there's more to talk about next time.
I hope you enjoy this little peek into our world and get to know us a bit better along the way. You're listening to Girl Undrunk.
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Heather: Oh my God. Did they do this to you at the
Zoe: No,
Heather: they don't crack your toes?
Zoe: They don't.
Heather: This has become our little ritual, Zoe. We put our feet on my chair and I crack our little toes.
Zoe: Oh [00:01:00]
Heather: hi listeners. Welcome back to Girl Undrunk. I'm your host, Heather.
Zoe: And I'm Zoe.
Heather: And we're back, baby.
Zoe: Let's do it.
Heather: Let's do a-
Zoe: Welcome back, Heather from your vacation.
Heather: Thank you so much. I, I'm peeling my, you look at my skin.
Zoe: Oh, no.
Heather: But that's okay.
Zoe: It's so hard not to burn when we're white as hell. And we're stuck in Canada and then you go on vacation in Tulum. Of course you're gonna burn.
Heather: It is hard.
Zoe: It's bound to happen you're bound to get burned.
Heather: I've been in hibernation mode for eight months and I'm like, hello the sun. But that's okay. It. It's, um, a nice little reminder of that there is warmth out there.
Zoe: And the warmth will be here soon. Spring is here.
Heather: It'll,
Zoe: summer's gonna be so amazing. It's always so much fun in the summer here in Toronto.
I'm super stoked.
Heather: Well, I wanna have a more fun summer because I usually don't do anything and I just like sit here and I watch everyone go by.
Zoe: I'm pulling you outside. Yeah, we gotta go Dundas West is right
there. We'll do the street fest. We'll gonna shake ass on the [00:02:00] street.
Heather: Perfect.
Zoe: We're shaking that little booty of yours.
Yeah,
Heather: no, it's time. I need to get myself a little Red Bull or a, you know, some sort of twisted tea. Oh, no. Twisted tea is alcohol.
Zoe: Twisted tea is booze. Well, you can't get you any of those.
Heather: No, no, no, no.
Zoe: We know what we're gonna drink this summer.
Heather: What?
Zoe: Ice matcha.
Heather: With milk, obviously. Do you put regular milk in it or of the nut?
Zoe: Reg. Milk.
Heather: Of the cow?
Zoe: Of the cow.
Heather: How's your mental health Zoe?
Zoe: Mental health is good. I feel like I had a great day too with my friends. I feel, I feel good.
Heather: That's good.
Zoe: Good week. Excited for the pod. I feel inspired and I feel, man, shit was dark at work, but it doesn't matter. . That's the thing.
Work is work and it doesn't matter in my real life.
Heather: Are you able to leave work at work?
Zoe: Oh, a hundred percent.
Heather: Oh, good for you.
Zoe: I don't carry that shit with me.
Heather: Oh my God. I carry everything with me all the time. I'm so [00:03:00] tired. Literally my arms are like constantly carrying like glass bottles of Evian.
Zoe: Well, it's because work is work. It's not my business. Like I care way more about this than the work that I'm doing over there.
Heather: I was talking to my therapist about this podcast and how I'm so excited and then I'm, we were talking about school and I just feel so lazy because I've always been bad at school.
Always. I don't like it. I don't like to do the work and I just. I'm like, what is wrong with me? What is the syndrome that I have for the problem that I have where I can't do school and I don't care?
The pro, the thing is like, I love to be at school. I love to learn. I've learned so much in the past two years I've been there, but she doesn't do the work. I don't, I don't do the work.
Zoe: Yous dos the works. What accident is this?
Heather: Well, I was, it's from Julia and Julia where like they're making a cookbook and they're trying to kick out their third party.
Zoe: You're good in a group of people.
I could never picture you sitting down and studying.
Heather: Ive never done that. But [00:04:00] when I'm in class, I love it. I've never loved. The content more. It's so exciting and it's sad and it's, I'm in, I'm in school for mental health and addiction and we're also learning, like we're doing a lot of indigenous studies and all of that, so it's so interesting. I just, I wanna be able to take the education and like not actually have to-
Zoe: apply it.
Heather: Yeah, well
I'm applying it, but
Zoe: You're applying in real life.
Heather: But it's an interesting-
Zoe: You already have
the lived in experience. Okay.
Heather: I do.
Zoe: So you're fine.
Heather: I do. And listen, I have a performing arts degree.
Zoe: She's a dancer. She's a dancer.
Heather: She'll not be using that degree anytime soon.
But yeah, I feel good. My mental health is pretty good this week, honestly. And anytime my mental health is good, I'm like, uh oh. No. What's coming?
Zoe: Well, I think we're happy. I think we're excited about this. We feel good.
Heather: Yeah, I do. I feel very positive. I feel like the women's sphere right now, the women that are around me, all good things are happening and it just feels positive. I feel like we're all on the same page.
Zoe: Yeah, we all got each [00:05:00] other. . And also the sun is out longer and summer is just around the corner. I can feel it.
Heather: I can feel it too.
Zoe: I can taste it. I smell the weird smells happening on the street again.
And that's when, you know, summer's around the corner. So our mental health has never been better.
Heather: And speaking of mental health. I mean, we're both feeling very positive. How do you feel now that the podcast has come out and people are listening?
Zoe: I feel like I've never felt like I haven't had a reason to be so anxious about anything in a very long time. So the day it was coming out, obviously I wasn't used to feeling all those feelings. And, um, now that it's been a couple weeks, I feel so just excited and good about it.
Zoe: That first day though, I was like, oh my God, anyone can message me about anything that I just said. And that's crazy.
Zoe: People are actually gonna be listening to this and I forget that when I'm talking. [00:06:00]
Heather: I know. It felt a little bit like we were in the movie Gravity with Sandy B and. Georgie C and we were just like rocket launch to space and float. Like that's what it felt like to me. I was like floating around in space.
Zoe: Anything could happen. I'm just very vulnerable. I put myself completely out there. And also, yeah, it did feel like freeing. I was like, it feels good.
Heather: It feels good. It feels feels right. It feels like the point
Zoe: I felt naked and afraid, but I loved it.
Heather: Have you ever watched that?
Zoe: Probably not.
Heather: I can't imagine being outside in the nude.
Well, first of all, I hate to be outside. And imagine naked with amongst the elements and the bugs.
Zoe: That would be not your thing.
Heather: That's the opposite of my thing.
Zoe: Have you skinny dipped?
Heather: No, never. Not even in like in a pool.
Zoe: Oh.
I skinny dipped with my family when I was like 10 years old and like, I didn't need to see all of that.
Heather: What a fun dynamic.
Zoe: Not, not it.
Heather: No, I've never felt comfortable enough in my body to skinny dip around even my [00:07:00] girlfriends.
Zoe: But it's, if you were skinny, dipping dark in a lake, no one can like inspect your body. You're that afraid?
Heather: I, I always was worried that something was wrong with my vagina and it looked weird because, um, I've been watching porn since I was 12 and all of their vaginas are so perfect and so I had a lot of like fear because mine isn't like a Barbie. It's like. A little bit like, Hey,
Zoe: I can't wait to see your vagina.
Heather: I'm like, we'll just turn this into an OF. But I, I always had like shame around it and I was nervous that it wasn't perfect. That's also I think, what kept me from like having sex.
Zoe: Maybe I was fine with it 'cause that one friend of mine did say that I had a perfect vagina.
Heather: Interesting.
Zoe: Yeah
Heather: I think mine's gotten better as I've gotten older.
Zoe: Okay. Interesting.
Heather: Were you a naked family?
Zoe: No.
Heather: Okay. No weren't either. No. No. I don't think.
Zoe: Just that one time, I don't know why we were skinny to being at my mom's friend's house.
Heather: You all let your freak flag flies flag.
Zoe: Just that one time.
My parents must've been drunk. That must've been it.
Heather: I mean,
that is just the answer to everything. If we [00:08:00] can't figure out why, oh-
Zoe: someone's drunk.
Heather: That's what I say all the time. I'm like, maybe people here are drunk. There's a lot of drunk people around. In whatever.
Zoe: I feel like I can't even tell sometimes when people are drunk though, because when I was drunk, I was so obviously drunk that, um, I forget that people can hide it better than I could.
Heather: Some people can. So there's a woman at the park who cannot hide it, and she is,
Zoe: Does she smell?
Heather: And she like is so thrilled to be there when she's drinking and like. She speaks really loud and really slow and just,
Zoe: That sounds like a great time. Being drunk and walking a dog.
Heather: Oh my god, I used to do that shit all the time.
Like, oh I couldn't do anything without drinking, but I would go to the dog park drunk. Did I tell you that one time?
Heather: And I fell down.
Zoe: No
Heather: I was at the dog park and I bent down to tie my shoe, and as I was down there I was like-
Zoe: I can't get up.
Heather: I can't get up, and none of these people know I'm drunk.
And I was like, you got one shot at this, you gotta stand. I stood up on a complete diagonal. I just like fell onto the rocks like all the pebbles. And I was like, [00:09:00] oh, oopsie. Like lost my balance there. It's probably just 'cause I'm not eating and I'm dizzy.
Zoe: I'm so skinny.
Heather: I had like two bottles of wine already and it was like 2:00 PM
I also wanna say to our listeners. . Thank you so much for listening and the feedback we've gotten has been so nice and appreciated all around. We didn't know what was gonna happen. We were very nervous on that day, but I mean, my heart is like so warm and it's just so nice. I've gotten some great feedback, like some people just reaching out from like high school and the woodwork and all that.
And it's, it's so lovely. And. I was talking to one of my friends, Owen, he's a naturopathic doctor and he was like, um, I said something, I think the first episode where I said something about you can't get healthy where you got sick in regards to like moving. And he's like, I like that and I'm gonna start saying that to my patients.
And I was like,
Zoe: Like you were literally changing people's eyes.
Heather: No. Like literally, I'm a doctor. Obviously, like my [00:10:00] girlfriends reached out and they were like, this is great. And a lot of the feedback is that like we sound so good together and I'm like, okay, good. That's what I wanted. Because when we go out to dinner and like chat about sober stuff, it's my favorite.
And I just always wanna bring people into the fold. But did you get any-
Zoe: I'm glad that people validated that we're a good pairing for this. Which was nice. Everyone has been saying really positive things. I haven't gotten anything like negative really yet. Um, and I want people to give me negative notes.
I wanna learn how to make, make this-
Heather: Not me
Zoe: better. No, I'm, I'm good with constructive criticism.
Heather: Sure, yeah, of course.
Zoe: As long as people still think that I'm smart while they're listening to this
Heather: Smart and fun, and sexy and cool.
Zoe: I would say a lot of people I expected. Reached out. Reached out, and a lot of people that I didn't expect to reach out reached out and just, they reached out just saying like, Hey, I am sober this many months and this is an amazing thing.
Thank you for doing that. And it was so cool that I'm just a someone to come to if [00:11:00] you're sober, you know? I love, I love that. And, um, my aunt was saying she, my aunt works at the mental illness department of the hospital in Oakville and she was telling her coworkers that I put out a podcast about sobriety and they listened to it and they would love for us to come in and talk to the youth.
Talk to the mentally ill.
Heather: We love the mentally ill,
Zoe: We love our favorite people. Um, and just talk about our stories. And. Promote the pod. Honestly,
Heather: I, I mean, listen. If you're gonna be in a mental institution and you have your phone, you might as well listen to some podcasts. No, I, I think that's so cool and like that makes me excited.
Zoe: Well, it's because no one's doing this you know, it comes from a positive place and people are liking the vulnerability, I think. Yeah, because not, they're not used to this.
Heather: No. And we were talking about this a bit before, but there are some things that I've said already on the podcast that I've been like, Ooh, Ariane.
Like, should I say [00:12:00] that? And even yesterday I was listening to episode four and I said something sexual that was a little like jarring even to me.
Zoe: But you only think that because of the other comment that you got.
Heather: Okay. So
speaking of feedback. I wanna bring something up and I, I wasn't sure if we were gonna talk about this, but I got some feedback from somebody, a man who I don't really know, and I just think that it is of note to talk about.
Zoe: I hate that he started off his comment by saying I know this is gonna sound like I'm mansplaining. Yeah, but I don't care. I'm gonna mansplain this to you.
Heather: Okay. So I guess it's important to note that I'll tell you the whole story. So I was in Tulum and I was not talking to anybody. I was not meeting anyone, and I was horny.
Okay. And so there's this guy, he's a friend of a friend. He was listening to the podcast. We were chatting and then somehow within the conversation I made [00:13:00] it like I did, I brought it up, I made it sexual. And he followed my lead and whatever we were sexting for just all like texting for like two days.
And that was fun. Whatever. It was all consensual, it was all cool. And then he listened to the podcast and he messaged me. This is in the morning, I get this Instagram message. I'm just gonna read the highlights.
"One other thing was I noticed you called yourself slutty on the podcast. I'm gonna mansplain something while fully recognizing that I'm doing it. I don't give a fuck. I've noticed that a lot of women struggle with the shame of their own sexuality. It's something that is baked into our culture and women are aware of it, but it's almost thought of that's just the way it is." He also goes on to say, um, "I also think promiscuity is a symptom of something bigger."
Goes onto his little story about like how he feels about sex. Um, then he says, "Wait, I have to work and then I wanna [00:14:00] finish my point." Like I'm in the lurch waiting to hear his point. Then he kind of explains to me why people use sex and physical intimacy as a way to cope. Um.
"Either way. Slut is an awfully judgmental word to use as an adult, especially when you are describing yourself such negative talk after all the hard work you've put into exploring yourself.
Anyways, that's my opinion. You can tell me to go fuck myself and that's okay. "
Zoe: Yeah, go fuck yourself.
Heather: Go fuck yourself.
Zoe: Literally go. We don't need that. Yes, slut is usually a derogatory term, but if we call ourselves slutty. Fuck. That's empowering. It's taking back the term.
Heather: He said, "You can call yourself a slut all you want. I'm not telling you what to do. Just giving an opinion" and then goes on to say, "you are an awesome person and you are allowed to have whatever sex rev you want." And then I said, 'cause I'm being cheeky, I said. "Well, I'm only a slut for special people." And then he said, "ha ha. I love [00:15:00] when you're slutty with me."
Zoe: Ugh.
Heather: That's the kicker.
Zoe: Literally it. You want. You want her to be a slut only for you.
Heather: It's okay-
Zoe: But it's not to, she doesn't wanna be slutty.
Only a slut for you.
Heather: Oh my God. When I got this message, I was infuriated at first. Actually. At first I was like, oh shit, should I not call myself a slut on my podcast?
And then I was like, hold on.
Zoe: It's my podcast.
Heather: It's my fucking podcast. And context clues, babe. I wasn't like, and I've had sex with this person and this person and this person, and therefore I'm a whore.
I was like, being facetious about having a co-ed rehab. And like not only that-
Zoe: It's not like I fucked everyone in the rehab
Heather: And even if I did,
Zoe: None of your business.
Heather: Yes I started this sexing conversation. You went along with it, and then you came to me and then reprimanded me for calling myself what you already know I am.
Zoe: And what you liked me because I was doing
Heather: Yes.
Yes.
Zoe: Ah, no. It makes me so furious.
Heather: It's okay when he tells me it's [00:16:00] okay. And by the way, I don't know this person.
We've never spoken in person. And also like tell me I can't call myself something and I will up that empty so hard.
Zoe: I hate when people tell me what not to do.
Heather: He went on to tell me about his promiscuity and like how he was using sex to cope and like, I'm sorry, did I make you feel bad I called myself a slut?
Zoe: We don't feel bad for our sexual ways.
Heather: Nothing.
Zoe: I don't feel bad. Do you feel bad?
Heather: Not in-
Zoe: He must feel bad.
Heather: Well, that's what I think.
I know that like my whole lore is like throw a rock and I hate a man. Like I will find a problem with a man. But this is why. And now that I'm sober, my eyes are open and I, yes, constructive criticism is one thing, but I was like, this is a lot of shame coming at me. And he's like, putting this stuff on me.
I feel like he has a, a bad relationship with sex. I don't know. I don't know. [00:17:00] His relationship stuff
Zoe: Sounds like it.
Zoe: Sounds like he just needs to put other people down to make himself feel better, which most guys do.
Um, it's an ego thing. It's a man thing.
Heather: Sometimes men make it so obvious that like they're proving my point and I just let them go.
Zoe: So that is. That's constructive feedback that we don't need.
Heather: It's not constructive. It's also like, it's not even, it's not for me. It's not for me.
Zoe: No. But don't let him infiltrate your mind. And he kind of was if he wa if you were thinking about not putting in something for yesterday's podcast.
Heather: Yeah, because I'm just like, I, I wanna present myself a certain way, but then I have to think like the way that men perceive me is none of my business, to be honest. I love how the women perceive me. I wanna be here for the girls.
Zoe: I'm here for the girls. That's it.
Heather: And listen, I am here for the men too.
That is true.
Zoe: If you're a good man, I'm here for you.
Heather: Addiction doesn't discriminate. It doesn't. And I get that. And so I [00:18:00] totally understand that. Shitty things happen when you're drinking or you're a shitty person. And when you get sober, a lot of people get better. Some people don't.
Zoe: Some people present that they're better behind closed doors.
They're the same shit person as they were when they're drinking. I'm finding this a lot out when I'm talking to more guys at the meetings like, oh,
Heather: Hey, this is an interesting point. I do think this idea of getting sober and becoming a better person, yeah, it is a thing. I'm a better person. You're a better person.
I actively want to be a better person. I actively have always wanted to be a good person and I am one,
Zoe: and it's cool to see like I am even more evolving every six months I look back and I'm like, oh, I can't believe I did that six months ago. I would never do that now, which proves to me that I am still getting better each day with my sobriety.
Heather: Yeah, I, I would just say-
Zoe: Making better decisions,
Heather: I think for the girls you have to protect yourself, especially when you meet someone that's sober. If you meet like a man, I'm gonna be binary about it but if [00:19:00] you're a girl and you're, you just got sober and you meet a man who's sober, he's gonna try and guide you.
And it's just not his journey. Like you're on your own
Zoe: if he's newly sober as well. sure try to figure it out together. If he has years over you and you're young and freshly sober.
Heather: I feel like I'm always gonna be hard on those things, and that's just like also my trauma. Like I really worry about the women and like the young vulnerable sobers it for me when things are like, oh, can you date in AA? And the same thing with like at work, like, can you date a colleague? Like for me, I'm like, hard, no. Only because I've seen things go so crazy and like lines are blurred and like it doesn't keep people safe.
And I'm like, no, no dating, don't shit where you eat.
Zoe: So some of the people at the meetings, all they know is the people from the meetings because they go to so many. You know? So they're not really exposing themselves as much as I would be to the outside world. They're, they go to meetings a lot, so [00:20:00] that makes sense why they would date someone from the meetings.
Heather: Um, it does, it makes sense.
Zoe: You meet people where you hang out.
Heather: Oh. It just makes me nervous. It makes me nervous.
Zoe: It makes me nervous too.
And it's not for me. I can't believe I haven't hooked up with the guy from the meeting.
That's, I've only made
out with one.
Heather: Oh, that's nice. How did, why did it not go any further?
Zoe: I don't know, honestly.
Heather: Were you outside?
Zoe: Yeah, we were making out in a library.
Heather: Oh my God. I like that.
Zoe: It was hot actually.
Heather: Where's like the most public place, or like the most like dangerous place you've had sex most public or weirdest?
Zoe: Um, I would say the best answer I have for this is I had sex on a floaty.
Not too far off the beach and there was like families on the beach and I was just having sex in the floaty out there a little bit.
Heather: Do you think people saw?
Zoe: Probably,
Heather: Oh my god, that makes me nervous.
Zoe: Yeah, it was one of the floaties that had a bottom, so it was kind of like a little boat.
Heather: So [00:21:00] you could kind of hide yourself a little bit.
Zoe: It was hidden a bit. I'm sure people saw his ass on top of me.
Heather: I had sex at this bar called Sweet Chick in Brooklyn.
Zoe: Nice.
Heather: In the bathroom. Brooklyn sitting on the toilet seat.
Zoe: Oh yes.
Heather: Hot.
Zoe: Yes. Was um, was anyone like knocking on the door, like saying, you're taking too long?
Heather: Nope.
Zoe: Cool,
Heather: Zoe, should we get into some sober news?
Zoe: Let's do it.
Heather: Now that I've stopped yelling at the men,
Zoe: Gimme the news.
Heather: Okay. This is just what we're gonna be watching. Lucy Hale and Harry Jowsey. You know them?
Zoe: Yes. Yes.
Heather: They are together now.
Zoe: They're together now and they're both not drinking.
Heather: They're both not drinking. Lucy's been sober for a while. Yeah, I remember her like maybe during Covid on a podcast talking about her sobriety.
Zoe: Yeah, I do remember that too.
Heather: Harry Jowsey, for those of you who don't know Mr. Jowsey, he started on what? Temptation Island Or Too Hot to handle.
Zoe: Too Hot to handle first season.
Heather: And he was a real [00:22:00] dickhead. For lack of a better term. And then he went on to like a next season of something.
Zoe: He always says that he's gonna be better and then he's not. And then he says he's gonna be better and then he is. A dickhead even more.
Heather: He's a real sociopath, to be honest with you. We shouldn't be diagnosing people, but he is.
Zoe: We shouldn't trust him.
Heather: No, don't trust Don.
Zoe: Don't trust him.
Heather: That's a person who like goes on camera and then like he does something wrong gets caught and then cries. And says like, everyone always thinks that I'm a bad person, but I'm actually got a big heart.
Zoe: Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, this happened five times.
Heather: Lucy Hale seems lovely. I don't know anything about her really, but I did just watch that movie that she's in, it's a new movie on Prime. It's about a serial killer and it's so bad.
Zoe: Okay. I'm not watching it.
Heather: Yeah, don't watch it. But the headline that like caught my interest was just like they are together now bonding over their sobriety. And I'm like, okay,
Zoe: Seems dangerous.
Heather: Here's the thing, I know that she's sober. He is an asshole. And I [00:23:00] don't trust him. And I don't trust when men are dickheads and then they say that they-
Zoe: Use sobriety.
Heather: Yes. I have a problem with my substances.
I have a problem with my drinking or cocaine or whatever the fuck.
Zoe: And the thing is we don't use that to seem better, but the guys use that to seem better
Heather: And I see it. Often. Over and over again. Especially when we see it in media.
It's like the Jax Taylor's, Jax Taylor. That's the girl, that's the guy that we listened to last week. Jax Taylor and Brittany Cartwright. They have a podcast together and Brittany just announced she's gonna be doing it on her own. Because they, they've been splitting up forever. But Jax came out and said like, on that hot mic podcast and was like.
Smiling like,
Zoe: This is really hard for me to say
Heather: This is, this is the hardest time in my life. Goes on to tell stories with like an actually really dangerous plot, but kind of washes smiling over it, as if like him screaming,
Zoe: But saying that it's really hard for him to say that.
Well, it sounds really easy for you to say that actually you're not tearing up, [00:24:00] you know, it doesn't seem like you're hurting right now.
Heather: Jax Taylor, a person that's on reality TV-
Zoe: That's why you're on reality, because you're a bad actor.
Heather: You haven't told anyone about your addiction. You've talked about everything all the time.
You never shut up. I just feel like something happened in there. Well, obviously something's happening, but I bet you there's like a custody agreement or a custody battle, and Jax is now being like he's trying to get the, the court of popular opinion to like him. And this is what I mean about watching the men, you have to be careful because men more than women, use sobriety as a cop out.
Zoe: Well, also, Lucy's probably like, oh, like I can fix him like he's sober now and he's gonna be better and I can fix him. Let him fix himself. Come on girls. I'm over us trying to fix these men. I'm over it.
Heather: It is such a thing and it's such a theme in my life. And probably your life and my sisters and every woman I know. We love a project and obviously like I'm being, again binary, but women. But we are more empathetic. We [00:25:00] nurture, we care, we love, we're looking for love.
Zoe: And even that we're sober now. Like we still want to help people. Like that isn't my nature.
When I see someone struggling, I'm like, even if it's a man, I'm like, let me save him. Let me help.
Heather: I think also too now in sobriety, we know the struggle. We know how hard it is, and so when you meet somebody, when you meet like a another person you're attracted to and they are struggling, you're like I've never related more to a person. Whoa, whoa, whoa. That doesn't mean you need to start a relationship with this person. Yeah, I, I. Yes. Like it's, it's great to watch people go through their transformations, but like girls, we can't pick up the pieces. You've picked up your own pieces. Now fly.
Don't go backwards. I know he's hot. I know he's tatted. Tip to tail. Don't. You can have sex with them, but like, that's it.
Okay. Well, Zoza, this is something I saw on TikTok and I, I looked it up because I saw another TikToker talking about it, and I was like, [00:26:00] Ooh, what is this? Mm, I looked it up. This girl, they're calling her like the consumerism girl. Basically, this girl is like, she's blonde, she's white, she's on the phone with her mom, and she's screaming at her mother, everyone.
Zoe: How young is she?
Heather: I would say she's either like in high school, 17, 18, or like really early college. Like she looks of that demographic. She's on the phone screaming at her mom and she's like trying to buy. The Rhoad lip glosses. She needs two, but she doesn't have enough money in her account.
And she's, oh my god, mom, I got like freaking out. She's like, I need $30. I need $30. I'm like, wait, wait, wait, wait. Oh my God, it's not going. And her mom's like, I'm trying, what do you need? And she's like, I'll tell you after it's an emergency. Like not telling her what it is. So her mom is on the phone being like, oh my fucking God, what does this girl need?
Is like she dying. Does she need $30 this is crazy. And she's not telling her. And then finally she's just like, oh my god, my God. It's the lip glosses. I need that. I need that. And then she finally like hits and she's like, I got it. I got it. She's vibrating Zoe, if you thought that was [00:27:00] annoying listening to me do it. It was so concerning.
Zoe: I feel like that was me when I was like, needed more money for booze when I was first year of university from my mom.
Heather: Just like finding any excuse to get alcohol. But this girl, I was watching her and I was like, yes, this is so cringey and embarrassing but more than that, this is a full epidemic.
This is a mental illness that she's experiencing. It's like a shopaholic or just like an, like a dopamine junkie?
Zoe: Well, it's also like the Rhoad is what she was wanting to buy.
Heather: The Hailey Bieber lip gloss,
Zoe: The Hailey Bieber. I'm sure that's only a thing that she needs because social media is telling her that she needs that to fit in with her friends.
She needs the Rhoad lip gloss. I feel like to fit in when I was that young it was just drinking. I don't know.
Heather: It just feels so out of hand and like to have that like body reaction where she's like clearly outside her window of [00:28:00] tolerance, she's like freaking out.
Zoe: Do you think, did it seem at all fake?
Heather: No.
Zoe: No. Okay.
Heather: No. And you know what? I've also had this feeling and I wonder if, because I don't drink anymore when I shop online, I do, my body feels crazy.
Zoe: I definitely felt that a lot when I was newly sober. I felt like I wanted to buy so many things, but I didn't have the capacity to buy them all. But I wanted everything right now.
Heather: Like distracting yourself a little bit. You know, it's gonna make you feel better. . I can like open this Amazon box and not open a bottle of wine.
Zoe: I love just shopping with friends. I, it's such like a date thing to do with my friends. Instead of going out to drink, I go out and shop.
Heather: Interesting. I like to shop by myself. Like when I go to Reformation, I like to go alone.
Zoe: Do you talk to the sales employees and make them your friends ?
Heather: Best friends.
Zoe: Anyways. So your vacation.
Heather: My vacation.
Zoe: Did you end up telling the management that you were
sober?
Heather: Okay, so I just got back from Tulum.
And I did say on the podcast I was gonna contact them and tell them that I'm sober, but I didn't. Okay. And [00:29:00] here's why.
Zoe: Were you scared?
Heather: Yeah, I felt kind of like embarrassed and I know now like reflecting on it, I'm like, okay, no, no, no, no, no. I just didn't wanna be annoying.
Zoe: A nuisance. Is that the word?
Heather: A nuisance? Annoying. However, I was like, oh, I spent so much fucking money, but.
Zoe: So, was there booze in the room when you got in?
Heather: Yes. So when I got there, there was a bucket of champagne and two glasses. Okay. And I was like, how dare you? The guy, the bellhop who brought my bag in, he was like, oh, do you wanna cheers? And I was like, oh, first of all, you were gonna,
Zoe: So the second glass was for him?
Heather: I was like, are you gonna drink my champagne, you Psycho? I was like, oh, I'm sober. Like I don't. And he's like, oh. And I was like, oh, I was going to email about it, but I just didn't. And he's like, oh, okay. I'm so sorry.
And I was like, no, I'm so sorry
Zoe: I didn't tell you it. My apologies.
Heather: But it doesn't matter. I wasn't expecting there to be, you know, an $80 bottle of champagne there. Like, that feels crazy.
Zoe: But maybe they could have put like a, a non-alcoholic champagne for you if you had said [00:30:00] something.
Heather: And I was more concerned that there was gonna be like those little alcohol bottles in the mini fridge.
But next time I will, for sure. Just to make sure. And also like, even if they're like, no, there's no alcohol in the room, I'll be like, oh, perfect. Just checking. It's not embarrassing.
Zoe: So did anyone ask you for if you wanted a drink?
Heather: The whole time.
Zoe: The whole time?
Heather: Well, the whole time there-
Zoe: Everyone was asking you if you wanted to.
Heather: Yeah, I mean at the airport. Right. Like I was sitting at the front of the plane. I'm such a brat, but I was sitting at the front of the plane and they bring their little drink cart. You know what's funny? I'm sitting on the plane, they bring their little cart around and I heard my own voice go.
"No one would know." That is just my addiction. And it's like ready at any- it's my bulldog. It's ready to party.
Zoe: It's ready at any time.
Heather: And then, yeah, when I was at the hotel, it was like anytime anyone would come by they'd be like, you wanna drink? And there was champagne going by the whole time.
Zoe: And I don't know if I was saying it like a nice place I would hope that after one [00:31:00] time of being like, oh, I'm sober, that no one else would offer me any champagne or alcohol, you know? I think that seems like an inconvenience.
Heather: Maybe being like, "oh, I'm sober' maybe that doesn't hold the same weight of like I am, am absolutely sober forever.
Zoe: But your massage therapist was sober.
Heather: Okay.
Zoe: We'll get into that. Yeah, we'll get into that.
So you went alone on this vacation? . Why did you wanna go on vacation alone? Were you hoping that someone would join you?
Heather: No. I, you know, it's funny, before I left, my mom asked me if I was bringing someone, and I was like, no, I'm going alone.
And then she asked me a second time and I was like, no. I already said, what is going on? Is she worried I'm gonna get taken by the cartel? And then I told my sister that, and she was like, no, you idiot. She thinks you're lying to her. She thinks you're bringing a man. And I was like, why? I told her I wasn't.
And then she-
Zoe: I wish I was bringing a man.
Heather: I was like, why does she think that? I told her no. And she's like, oh. You're a liar. You're a huge liar and you always have been. And I was like, oh oh oh it's like, right. I forget that sometimes that like my, my words [00:32:00] don't hold any weight.
Zoe: It's easy for us to be like, no, we've changed because I, I can see myself changing but they aren't that aware of it.
Heather: I know there are. They're also in recovery from me. And they have to like deal with their own trauma around it, build that trust back. But I just wanted to go alone because I felt like, I don't know, turning 30 has felt like so significant to me, and I'm like, I can do hard things.
It was definitely kind of a test.
Zoe: Was it kind of like a test?
Heather: Yeah, yeah. I was like, I, I know I can do it. But I wanna do it and I just, you know what? Since I've met you to and like you post things on your story or you do like a, a galentine's thing or a roundup of the year and I, if I were to do the roundup of my year, it wouldn't be that much. It would be a lot of like me here. Or like at dinner once a week with you guys, which I love, but I'm like, you know what, when I look back at the timeline or like the archives of my life, I wanna be like, oh I was-
Zoe: Oh yeah, we did that.
Heather: Like I went to Tulum by myself once and it was really great for me to be alone and [00:33:00] quiet and by myself and reflective, especially when the podcast was coming out. But yeah, I, I really liked it and I do think that I might do it every year.
Zoe: Take me through the morning of how you prepped for your sober vacay.
Heather: Okay. I'm very crazy. So here's the thing. I am the most unorganized person until it comes to a vacation and I will pack
Zoe: You were very excited to pack.
Heather: It gives me so much dopamine to pack. I'm like, this is the version of myself that I love the most. Like, everything has a label. Everything is good. I really just like woke up.
I went to the airport. It was like a midday flight. I did have Lorazepam.
Zoe: Right. I forgot that you,
Heather: The Lorazepam,
Zoe: You are the Lorazepam.
Heather: I'm on the Lorazepam.
Zoe: You're just like the Lorazepam mom in The White Lotus.
Heather: I really was. I, so I don't,
Zoe: She only had one single Lorazepam. Okay. There was one single one.
Heather: I, and I usually don't take anything on a plane. I used to when I was younger, 'cause I was very nervous and then I went through all my drinking. So once I started drinking on planes, I was good to go. And then after the drinking I was like, oh, this is fine. But [00:34:00] all the planes started crashing and flipping upside down.
And so I was like your boy, a little nervy boy, your boy's a little nervy.
Zoe: Nervy of the ellys,
Heather: Nervy of the ellys. And when I'm talking about the ellys, this is what I'm talking about. Okay.
Zoe: The elements.
Heather: The elements on the way back took another Lorazepam, and then I was texting my sister on the plane and I was like, so this thing happens to me I would say now, once every two months where I have like a full anxiety episode and I wake up in the middle of the night and I just am like nauseous. I'm immediately gonna throw up. I go to the-
Zoe: Is it around your period that this happens?
Heather: No, it's just random and I go to the bathroom and then I start to pass out and I go to the floor, and then I throw up all over the floor.
This happens to me more than you would think. It's like very dramatic. And I usually call my dad
Zoe: And it's anxiety based.
Heather: It's anxiety, it's all anxiety, and I never see it coming. But I was telling my sister, I'm like, whoa, maybe I should talk to my doctor about these like an emergency anxiety [00:35:00] pill because I don't wanna be having these anxiety attacks.
They're horrible.
Zoe: Does your doctor know about these anxiety attacks?
Heather: Yeah, but I'm gonna be honest with you, I don't know that my doctor knows a lot about anything.
Zoe: Got it. Did you have any cravings while you were down there?
Heather: Yeah. Fuck.
Zoe: What Like triggered those cravings?
Heather: Okay. The smell of Mexico is a trigger all off.
Zoe: Was there like tequila smells everywhere?
Heather: There wasn't tequila-
Zoe: But tequila wasn't your really thing so,
Heather: Well, I would take anything to be honest with you. Yeah, but I had cravings at night around like 5:00 PM which is like when my cravings are. During the day, I was okay. I was like, I would love to be drinking right now.
And I, I was thinking that a lot. I was like on the beach and I wasn't doing anything and I was like, Ugh.
Zoe: Was everybody drinking around you?
Heather: Everybody.
And every hotel like had a little beach club, so like they were bringing out alcohol to everyone all the time. And I was like, yeah, that feels nice.
But then around like 5:00 PM I would get a craving. I would order dinner, get like a ginger ale, and then go to bed at like 7:30. I was [00:36:00] asleep early.
Zoe: What time did the sunset down there?
Heather: Like seven. And then I was waking up at like 4:00 AM and taking baths.
Zoe: That sounds so peaceful.
Heather: It was so peaceful and serene.
Zoe: And the weather was good?
Heather: Yeah, the weather was great. I think like also with the cravings, it was a true test to be like, no, I'm good because I'd have a craving. I would think about it. I would either like say it out loud or just like grab a ginger. I was drinking a lot of Coca-Cola too.
Zoe: It is like the ultimate test to do. Is to do a sober vacation at a resort where alcohol is all around you, and I'm so proud of you. You passed.
Heather: Thank you.
Zoe: I'm so proud of myself too. Would you, so you would do the sober vacation by yourself again?
Heather: Fuck yeah. I can do it. It was, it was good. The only thing was like I was bored and boredom is a big trigger for me, and I know it's a big trigger for a lot of people.
And so like being bored, the smell of Mexico is like very, I don't know what it is. It's like the cars and the air. It smells like Guatemala. When I used to go to Guatemala all the time, I was young. [00:37:00] And drinking like crazy. So immediately I stepped off the plane and I was like, whoop. Love a glass of wine.
When I was leaving Tulum, I was at the airport. I was in the gift shop, which is great. Any, like a Mexican gift shop is the best. They have so much stuff. And, um, this woman wasn't wearing her backpack, rookie, and she turned around, smashed a bottle of tequila on the floor, and I was like six feet away and the tequila smell went right to the back of my throat.
I was like, oh. Like it smelled so strong. It made me nauseous. I was like, okay, I can't do this.
Zoe: So you didn't go on any excursions, you didn't really meet any sober friends or-
Heather: No, no one
Zoe: interactions?
Heather: Ugh. I met nobody except, um, the first day I was walking on the beach in my bikini. And I haven't done that ever in my life.
Zoe: You're feeling confident.
Heather: I was feeling confident. I Was feeling good. I was excited. I was happy to be there. It was warm and I walked past these two guys and they smelled like the Le Labo. I was like, you don't [00:38:00] wear Le Labo perfume on the beach. Okay. Unless you're looking to be complimented.
So I walked past them and I turned around and I was like, you guys smell so good. Just trying to be like fun and flirty. And they looked at me for so long, Zoey, and one of the guys was like, okay,
Zoe: Hate that.
Heather: Oh my God. It stabbed me in the heart. I literally looked at them and went, okay. And then I went back to my room, had like a small cry 'cause I was like rejected publicly and then I was like fuck this. Not a whisper of a man is gonna ruin my vacation.
Zoe: No, guys are just like, maybe they're not used to girls approaching them like that. I don't know. Maybe they did have girlfriends, but regardless if someone compliments you you just say thank you. That's all you need to say.
Heather: It's so confusing sometimes, like men have been mean to me often in my life, and I just don't get it. Like, it was really weird. I was trying to think like what that was. I'm like, do they think I'm crazy? Are their wives watching?
Zoe: Who knows? [00:39:00] Bottom line is they just weren't nice guys and good. They, you steer clear of them anyways.
Heather: You know, but it did like upset me for a second.
Like, I went back to the room and I was like, I'm in Mexico. I'm sober. I'm alone. I'm such a fucking loser. I don't have a boyfriend. All these people are with couples then-
Zoe: No, it would bring me down too, because like you that you put yourself out there. Which is really a brave thing to do.
Heather: This is the conversation I had with my therapist all the time.
I'm like, something went wrong in my day. Why am I sober? She's like, well that was a jump, wasn't it? I don't know. Everything, it feels, it feels real connected to me. Like one thing goes wrong and I'm like, honestly, what is the point actually, but that is also being an addict. That's being in recovery.
That's like knowing that when you freak out about something, we can't go to our substance. So you have to just sit with your feelings, control those feelings. And I think it's easier to deal with your feelings when you know that you can numb it later. Even if it's later. But now I'm like, oh, I'll be sitting with this one, won't I?
Zoe: It did [00:40:00] affect you.
Heather: Yeah, it did know. It did. Men affect me, they affect me,
Zoe: And that's why we are so mad at them for affecting us
Heather: All the time. Next question, please.
Zoe: We were talking about switching your location-
Heather: I did do that
Zoe: on your hinge. Did you do that the day of or did you do that when you got there.
Heather: I did it. No, I think I did it on the plane. I like switched my raya. I couldn't figure out how to switch my hinge.
Zoe: Oh, and that's where you matched with that DJ.
Heather: I matched with this dj and he was like, Hey, we should hang out. And I was like, I mean, I've got nothing going on. But then I looked through his Instagram and he was like popping and everything was like drinking and dj, he's a DJ in Tulum. So we didn't end up hanging out. He never messaged me.
Zoe: And probably for the best.
Heather: Well I also posted that thing on Instagram that was like a bathing suit photo. And I was like, body bi, anorexia, bulimia, like all that shit, all of my trauma.
He did see it. And I, and then I bet you he was like, oh, I'm not looking for a girl who's on a spiritual journey here. This is crazy. I want someone to be drunk.
Zoe: No, a dJ just wants someone to get drunk with. For sure. [00:41:00]
Heather: And that was just not gonna happen, so that was fine.
Zoe: But you had your sexting fun.
Heather: Yeah, I had my sexting fun.
Zoe: And you enjoyed the sun.
Heather: And I feel better. I feel like more powerful that I've like gone on a trip by myself.
Zoe: And you feel proud of yourself?
Heather: I do. I can do things sober. Like that's fine. But you're going to Nashville?
Zoe: I'm going to Nashville in May. Unfortunately, I'm going to the States.
Yeah, we planned this before the whole state's thing blew up, so we are still going.
Heather: Yeah, that'll be, I mean, it'll be good. It'll be exciting. Nashville's like its own little bubble. I've never been.
Zoe: I'm going with my family. My cousin is turning 21 and she's big into country. I'm excited to go and wear my cowboy boots.
And I really wanna go line dancing. I wanna go to a bar and learn how to line and dance. I haven't gone on a solo sober vacation. I've only been on sober vacations with my friends and or family.
Heather: Well, you're, you're amongst your friends who do drink here in the city so [00:42:00] you're used to it.
Zoe: I am used to it, but it's always different when my family drinks around me. Also, when you're traveling, yeah, it's, it's different because my parents, when they're traveling, they're gonna be drinking every single night. When I'm with my friends in the city, I'm with my friends who drink like maybe once a week.
So when I'm on vacation, I'm around people drinking every single day for a week. That gets to be a lot. Um, and I just go to bed early. And sometimes my family gets like upset that I'm gonna bed at 8:00 AM 8:00 PM 8:00 AM
Heather: Goodbye.
Zoe: My parents sometimes are like, why don't you stay up with us longer? But it's because I can't watch you guys drink every single night.
Heather: But do they get that?
Zoe: They understand it now. Okay. But I think they thought that, they thought that it was the same because I'm with my friends who drink in the city. But like I said, I'm with them once a week. Not every single night like a vacation is
Heather: Also a vacation is weird too, because I feel like a little [00:43:00] more no rules. Like I, I can, I could do things and no one would know. Like there's just something about a vacation where you feel like you're invincible in a way. And that's where like my, my addiction comes in and it's like, hello, would you like to drink now? Or on the plane?
Zoe: I'm gonna just like live vicariously through my cousin. And I'm gonna get her as drunk as possible.
Heather: Oh good.
Zoe: And take care of her.
Heather: Is that a bummer for her, that she's gonna bring you and you're not drinking?
Zoe: I think she knows that I'm still fun.
Heather: Well, yeah, of course.
But do you think that she'll feel like weird about drinking around you?
Zoe: I don't think so.
Heather: A lot of drinking around you all the time, eh?
Zoe: A lot of drinking around me all the time.
Heather: I'm really grateful for the non-drinkers in my life. I'm, I went to dinner with my sister, it was her birthday. Shout out Karen.
And she, uh, and we were sitting across from each other and she goes "I think I'm gonna give this whole sobriety thing a try". Shut the fuck up. Shut the fuck up. Karen does not drink. Yeah, Karen drinks like once a month maybe. Maybe when she like goes out with her friends and she has a [00:44:00] cocktail with like the egg white stuff on top.
Karen doesn't drink and-
Zoe: Doesn't qualify.
Heather: No. And she was like. Really thinking about it. And she was like, you know, I just think it's crazy. Like I don't drink and then I drink like once a month and I feel like it shocks my body. And I'm like, okay. The way people, the way that non drunks talk about alcohol it's, you guys are. It's such squares sometimes.
Zoe: But then just like, don't drink. If it bothers you that much and you clearly can go without drinking, just don't drink.
Heather: No, and I love it. Like, I love when people are like, like Ariane is the same way. She isn't an addict, but she just like didn't find alcohol was beneficial in her life.
And she is like, I just don't drink anymore. And neither does her husband. But I, uh, yeah, of course I'm like thrilled that like Karen doesn't wanna drink, but I'm just like when people do that, when they're like, I don't really drink, but I think I'm like done. I'm like, cool. It must be nice.
Zoe: Must be nice to have a choice.
Heather: I'm like, I'm over here dying.
Zoe: I could tell that it was hard for my one friend not to drink today, but I'm glad that she didn't drink [00:45:00] because usually if we would go out for lunch and be shopping around, she would've had like at least one or two.
Heather: Why didn't she?
Zoe: I don't know. I think my other friend wasn't. So since my other friend wasn't drinking, she felt like she shouldn't either.
Heather: You don't wanna be like the odd one out. You don't want to be the only one drinking. I loved when I would, I mean, I was like looking for friends who would definitely drink at lunch with me.
So God, you and me would've drank at lunch together and then we would've ended up probably screaming at each other on the street.
Zoe: I don't think I would like you when we were drinking.
Heather: Definitely not.
Zoe: We would've got, we would've been friends, but we would've like fought all the time.
Heather: I know we just had very diff different drinking styles. And like my drinking style didn't support yours. And yours didn't mine.
Zoe: I would like be trying to pressure you to come out all the time and you'd be like screaming at me.
Heather: Not always screaming. I would just be like, I'm not going. Or I would say, yeah, I'll go and then I'd never go.
Zoe: Yeah, you'd always bail on me. And that would,
Heather: That's how our friendship would end. Oh my God, I love having this like hypothetical fight with you.
Zoe: I know.
Heather: I feel like this was really good for us.
Zoe: This was really good for us.
Heather: I mean, listen, Zoe-
Zoe: Let's [00:46:00] keep it hypothetical forever, but hypothetically we start drinking and then we have to go to therapy together. Couples therapy.
Heather: Honestly, that's the goal. That's the whole reason I'm doing this podcast with you is so that we will eventually just go to couples therapy together, I guess
Zoe: You want me to go to therapy that bad?
Heather: No, I just like to do things with a partner. I like to do things with you. Now that you're in my life, I'm like, what else can we do together?
Zoe: We already started a podcast.
Heather: I know.
Zoe: What else? Can we do?
Heather: The Oscars?
Zoe: Bring me to the Oscars,
Heather: Or we can go on vacation.
Zoe: Okay, let's go on vacation.
Heather: We have a lot to do this year.
Zoe: I think we're going to try to plan something for us to do on Easter weekend.
Heather: Yeah, baby.
Zoe: So stay tuned for that.
Well, I'm proud of you.
Heather: I'm proud of you. Woo. Bye
Zoe: Bye.
Thanks for listening to Girl Undrunk. You can follow us on Instagram and TikTok at girlundrunkpodcast, or send me an email at heather@girlundrunk.com. And before we go, thank you to our amazing producer, Ariane Michaud, and support from her team at Consciously Produced Martin Nuñez-Bonilla for the graphics. Ian Sitt for setting up our sound, Daniel James for the music. This podcast would not be possible without you. See you next week!
