#08: Cut It In The Butt
Heather and Zoe rewind to their pre-sobriety dating lives, revealing the kinds of relationships they found themselves in while navigating addiction. They share personal stories about the partners they chose, the boundaries they ignored, and the ways alcohol influenced their sense of self-worth. This is part one of a two-part series on dating, starting with the past: who they were, who they loved, and what they learned.
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Cut It In The Butt: Transcript
Heather: [00:00:00] This podcast covers sensitive topics that may be difficult for some listeners. Please take care while listening.
Hi everyone. Welcome back to Girl, Undrunk. I'm your host Heather. And today's episode might sound a little bit like a therapy session because it kind of is, we're going back in time unpacking the relationships we had before we got sober.
And as you can imagine, it gets kind of real. So much of recovery is untangling the relationships we were in while we were drinking, the people we chose, what we put up with, and the versions of ourselves we brought to the table. It's wild to look back and realize how much of that was shaped by addiction.
And the thing is, everyone's recovery looks very different. Zoe and I have taken really different paths. She's in AA, I'm not, but we've both had to relearn what love and connection even mean when you're no longer trying to disappear. This is part one of a series we're doing about dating. Today is all about relationships [00:01:00] before sobriety.
And next week we'll get into what it's like to date after sobriety, how different it feels when you're actually present, not numbing and trying to have fun without the support of liquid courage, false chemistry, or the chaos we used to mistake for connection. I love talking about this stuff with Zoe because she's one of my closest friends.
We could talk about dating and relationships forever, but this is the first time we're doing it with a mic in front of us so you might hear us feeling out just how much we wanna share. And on that note, mom and dad, maybe skip this episode. Okay? Okay, let's get into it. You're listening to Girl, Undrunk.
Hi, everyone.
Zoe: Hi.
Heather: Hey, Zoe. [00:02:00] Welcome back. This is episode eight.
Zoe: Crazy.
Heather: Crazy.
Zoe: Um, everyone's listening.
Heather: I know. It feels so good. You, you sent it to your friend in Reno.
Zoe: Yeah, my friend in Reno, she watches the stories all the time and I FaceTimed her finally last week, I think, just to catch up a bit.
And she also said that she sent it to her friend whose son is in active addiction trying to get sober and he said that he really related to it.
Heather: Nice.
Zoe: Which is great because I feel like we're not completely for the boys, but that's good that he could just relate in how no one's really talking about this, you know?
Heather: And if we're sitting here talking about shitty men and you're not a shitty man, then that's okay.
Zoe: And that's okay. And we like you. We want to like all of you boys. But it's, you guys make it hard sometimes.
Heather: You do, but you do make it easier when you're sober. That's true.
Zoe: If you're a sober boy, you get an extra five points.
Heather: It's true.
Zoe: You start at five, you don't start at zero like the rest of them.
Heather: [00:03:00] Wait, that's what I say.
Zoe: Really?
Heather: Yeah.
Zoe: Okay..
Heather: Wait. Whoa. And I don't think we've ever talked about this though.
Zoe: I've never thought about that until now.
Heather: Okay. Because you know how people like, you're supposed to like start at like a hundred and then you go up or down from there.
Not to me. Like men to me actually started at zero. And you have to like push through the pavement to get up there.
Zoe: I think that's how it should work.
Heather: But when you're sober, you do start at more of a three to a five.
Zoe: I would say you start at five.
Heather: Okay. That's really generous of you Zoe.
There's this guy that I, I, I've mentioned on the podcast before, even though we were messaging this weekend, and I specifically told him I wasn't gonna say anything about him on the podcast.
Zoe: Sorry.
Heather: Which, which I'm not. But we, we've known each other since we were little, little, but we've never spoken.
And now that he's sober and we've kind of gone back and forth . About sobriety, I'm just like ah, I just feel like you're my friend and we don't even know each other, but I care so much about you because you're sober. Which means you have some sort of story or something going on emotionally, and I like it.
Zoe: And it's also the fact that we can connect to someone who's sober, [00:04:00] like someone who says that, and like, oh, we have something in common. And it is such a community of people. We're always there for the sobers, for the addicts. Like, if you're struggling I understand completely what you're going through and I'll help you out.
So your mental health is not so great Right now.
Heather: My mental health is not so great right now. I, I just feel like I am, I can't catch up on homework. Inside my own body. . I feel like I'm an assignment behind and I'm just like, everything I do is like getting slower and slower and I, but my internal clock is moving so fucking fast, and I'm like, panicking. But that's how I've been feeling for like a week. I just feel so weird.
Zoe: I know. I didn't like hear from you for over a day. And then I was like, okay, something's off with Heather. Let me text her. And something was off with you. I know. I literally know you now, like I know. Know when something's off in you.
Well, and I even felt weird. It,
Heather: I felt weird about today. I was like, Zoes coming over. We haven't talked. I feel like I like cheated on you [00:05:00] and then like haven't spoken about it, but I'm just like, my brain is just so, like I was two days ago, I was lying in my bed, like looking at the ceiling, being like, I might as well be drunk right now because I can't move.
I was so tired. I'm getting brain shocks. You're not on, um, antidepressants, right?
Zoe: No.
Heather: If you're on an SSRI, this happens. I know this happens to other people that when you miss your medication, you get these like shocks in your body. And it literally feels like an electric shock in your brain.
And I also get it in my fingernails. And then it, it's a shock. And then it's kind of like a won like, whoa. Wonky in your brain and then you come back . It's not a good feeling and I don't know why I'm getting that. Potentially I just like have built up a tolerance to my meds and now I need more.
Or it's my period and my hormones. Like they, I feel like my period cancels out medication. It's like LOL, no.
Zoe: And maybe you just like, like I said, everyone has off weeks and I think you just like had an off week and you've had a [00:06:00] lot of stuff. Come up in your personal life this past month that maybe you really didn't deal with.
So it, it all makes sense. And like you just have to like push yourself to get outside and enjoy life and not try to, try not to rot in bed 'cause I know when I am feeling sad and I just like lay in bed all day, it doesn't make anything better.
Heather: It really doesn't. And I do feel that's what I used to do when I was drinking.
I would sit in my bed all day and drink wine and spill shit. And I did, I spillt tea in my bed the other day.
Zoe: Oh no.
Heather: I was-
Zoe: Trigger
Heather: Huge fucking trigger. And it was at night, it was like 8:00 PM which I should already be in bed, which I was, but I wasn't sleeping. I was drinking caffeine and I spilt it in my bed and I was like, oh my God, do I clean this right now or tomorrow?
And I was like whole right now. Literally right now you cannot sit in like tea milk. But it's just like, I used to do that and I would spill shit and be like, whatever. I'm already garbage. I'll just, I used to throw it sheets all the time.
Zoe: Well, I hope you like bounce back this week.
Heather: Is your mental health [00:07:00] okay?
Zoe: My mental health is crazy because I was so anxious this week because I spoke at the meeting on Saturday first.
Heather: Yes. Tell me about that. How did that go?
Zoe: Man, I was so scared I was gonna like, puke on the stage. Like I-
Heather: You were on a stage?
Zoe: Well, I was at the front of like, the room not elevated, but I was at the front and with a podium.
Heather: Oh man.
Zoe: So it was just me in that podium and a hundred people watching me. Like I was saying, I have never been this anxious before in sobriety.
Heather: Wow.
Zoe: Going on first dates, I probably was a little close to that anxious, but not as anxious as I truly was on Saturday. And I think it's because I, I cared about it more than going on a first date, you know? I cared about what I was gonna say to the newcomer way more than I. What I said to a first date, you know?
Heather: I mean, it's a huge thing. It's, it's all eyes on you. You're talking about your story. This is like the first time you're going like, you know, beginning to end. And [00:08:00] people are there to listen to you.
It's crazy. Did you write it down?
Zoe: No. I just kind of talked to myself on Saturday a lot to see what I was gonna say. But and then when I was over, I felt so vulnerable after, and so I felt like proud, but I also was like, God, I could have done a little bit better. You know?
Heather: What do you wish you would've said?
Zoe: Well, I kind of ended it very abruptly. I, uh, I saw that there was only five minutes after the meeting and I was like, oh, shit. Like that gives me note. Like I can end it now. And so I kind of just like wrapped it up super quick and I could have talked more about what life is today instead of just like ending it so abruptly. But it is what it is. And that was my first time. And I'll get better and I know that, so I can't be too hard on myself, but.
Heather: No, of course.
Zoe: Overall I think it was good. Everyone like congratulated me after and I felt good. I just like felt very vulnerable and emotionally drained and I didn't go out with anybody after the meeting 'cause I just needed to go home and just be by [00:09:00] myself and process what the heck just happened.
Heather: Well it's so, it's, it's so vulnerable. You, you've exposed everything. You literally just got naked, like cut your body open and said hello. Here you go. Take what you want. That's crazy. You know, we do it every week, but we're sitting behind a mic.
Zoe: Exactly. And it's just me and you. I don't think of anybody else that's listening right now.
Heather: I guess like as the years go on and like the, the longer you're sober, you probably, when you do tell your story it'll probably change 'cause what you realize is most important or like most impactful for you probably will be different in five years.
Zoe: I think so too. I think it will just get better and better and I know that, but I was so proud of myself because I think that's like the hardest thing I've literally had to do in sobriety so far is do that.
I'm proud that I can push myself without needing alcohol.
Heather: Did you wanna drink like that on Saturday?
Zoe: No. No I didn't. I just was like, God, I hate feeling like this, like my stomach. Like I was, I have never been that anxious in my [00:10:00] life without alcohol.
Heather: Wow.
Zoe: Like I was anxious all the time when I was like drunk because I would feel so bad about my fucked up life, you know?
But that was crazy.
Heather: That's crazy.
Zoe: And it's done and I feel happy. . And proud and I'm excited for like what's to come. And hopefully I get to sponsor some girls soon. Hopefully they like, oh, like me.
Heather: 'cause you're done your steps.
Zoe: I'm like, done.
Heather: So now, next meeting when they say like, is there anyone looking for,
Zoe: Like I raised my hand on Saturday.
Heather: Whoa.
Zoe: This is a long time coming. I definitely took my time doing this. Like I've, I'm two and a half years sober almost, and I should have been like sponsoring women after the first year, to be honest.
Heather: So wait, it's supposed to be by who's fucking standards?
Zoe: I mean, like, I don't know if everyone takes their time as much as I did.
I'm such a procrastinator and I accept that, but-
Heather: But you're sober.
Zoe: But I'm sober and that's all that matters.
Heather: But [00:11:00] is that like the vibe, like you're supposed to after a year start?
Zoe: It's not like a rule, but it's just like, I, I think I could have been doing it by now, but everyone has like their own pace and I was never one to be like quick about anything. I just like really wanted to do it well and make sure like I was okay.
Heather: I think maybe you feel like that. 'cause that's like how I feel when I pretend to do homework, I'm like, I don't wanna do that. I'm lazy. But I think like if you weren't ready a year ago ,if you didn't want to be a sponsor-
Zoe: Well that's also true because I stopped going to meetings last year too. Like at this point last year I wasn't going to meetings. So that also break gave me more time to waste, I guess. Not to waste, but I, everything happened the way it's supposed to happen. I finally told my story and now is the next step.
Heather: Your sobriety is your own. And like the way that we stay sober is like not [00:12:00] adhering to these like strict fucking scary
things that we don't wanna do.
Zoe: No one was rushing me. I think it's just my mind being like, oh, I see other people who are sponsoring women after nine months, one year, whatever. .
And I just compare myself to that and I shouldn't, and I went at my own pace and I'm here and I'm sober and I'm proud, and
Heather: Yeah
Zoe: I'm ready.
Heather: It's such an interesting perspective because I would assume that you wouldn't be a sponsor until you're at least two to five years sober. But I guess that's, and I'm not in AA, so I don't really know.
But it's funny to be like, after nine months you're sponsoring someone. And I get that it's for you, right? It's like beneficial for the sponsor to have sponsees because it keeps you accountable. It's like you're helping giving back.
That's what Dax Shephard said he is like, as an addict or as a recovering addict, you like, you tell your story once and then you never stop telling it for the rest of your life.
Zoe: Exactly. I'm very interested in Dax though, because he always says he doesn't believe in God. I'm like, how does the [00:13:00] program work for you then?
Heather: Do you believe in God?
Zoe: Yeah, I believe in my God.
Heather: Did you believe in God before?
Zoe: I am very spiritual.
Heather: Sure.
Zoe: And my spirituality is, my God.
Heather: Did you grow up religious?
Zoe: No, but in yoga, like I did yoga off ice after figure skating every day. Like that was our off ice training was kind of like doing yoga so that spiritualness meditation that comes with yoga I think I was always intrigued with that and I kind of always believed in that.
And, um, yeah, like so having faith and believing that everything's supposed to happen the way it is, I believe in that.
Heather: But I don't know if that's- that's God to you?
Zoe: So that's, that's God to me,
Heather: That's probably the same thing. He just-
Zoe: I don't believe in religion.
Heather: No.
Zoe: And like at the meetings they say like, your God can be your friends.
You know, like your God can be love. Your God can be everybody in this room who somehow made it into this room and they're an addict. Like, that's crazy.
Heather: Well, see that's where, that's what it is for me. When I went to [00:14:00] rehab and people were like really struggling with the idea of God and like waiting to hear his voice.
I was like, wait, what? You're in rehab. You're, you made a choice. This is the fucking path. I feel like with Dax Shepherd, his God is like his ego.
Zoe: I mean I just, I don't really understand why he talks about the program and then talks about how he doesn't believe in a God. I'm like, ah, did what you need to have believe in something for the program.
Heather: Interesting.
Zoe: And it can be whatever you want it to be. I'll be interested to talk to him about it-
Heather: When, when we're on this podcast?
Zoe: Yep.
Heather: That would be, it is interesting because I'm like, does that mean that everyone's sitting in those rooms, believes in God?
Zoe: In their version of God. It's just nice to like believe in something when you're trying to get sober, I think.
Heather: Okay. Did you watch it? The James Kennedy interview, because I'm gonna tell you about it.
Zoe: Okay. Tell me. [00:15:00]
Heather: Um, okay, so James Kennedy-
Zoe: The alcoholic?
Heather: Yes. Yes. He's an alcoholic. He's on Vanderpump Rules. Yes. And he started dating Ally Lewber a few years ago. Okay. She's like-
Zoe: She went on Nick Viall's podcast. I did see some clips.
Heather: Okay. So she just went on Nick Viall's podcast and obviously like, it was like a, a dramatic one. We knew they were gonna be talking about James Kennedy because Kathy Hilton was throwing her big Christmas party. And Ally Lewbert, James's girlfriend was actually working there because she was doing Kathy Hilton's birth chart.
'cause she does astrology. She comes out, obviously like the party's going on, and James comes up to her and she's like. James can have one drink and I know 'cause he's just drunk.
So James comes up to me and I go, are you drunk? And he goes, no. Are you drunk? And she's like, okay, you're drunk.
So she tries to just like chill. Like she, she, mind you, at this point she thought that he'd been sober for two months. But she's like, nah, he's been drinking [00:16:00] the whole time behind my back. And this, I mean, everyone who's like following the whole thing on Vanderpump is like, you can tell when he's drinking and when he's on coke.
Zoe: Because he's aggressive too, right?
Heather: Yeah and Allys saying like, he can have one drink and I know immediately I'm like, no, he's had five. A few. Like he's showed up.
Zoe: You've seen one in his hand but behind closed doors, he's had a few.
Heather: I'm like, did you guys show up separately? Because he was drinking at home. Like there's no fucking way.
But so then they get into an Uber to go home. This is where it all takes place. They have a big fight. Apparently they're yelling at each other in the Uber. He's drunk. She's like saying You're drunk and he's saying he's not. Then a witness, someone close to Ally said that they saw James.
This is all in like the, the, uh, police report that he, they saw James pick up Ally. Now Allie has like a hundred pound soaking wet. She's a teeny tiny little, she's tiny squirrel. Pick her up and throw her to the ground.
Zoe: From the Uber?
Heather: No, like they were, had left the Uber and then they were fighting and then he like he, like choke, choke slammed her.
Zoe: Wow. [00:17:00] I learned that in boxing today.
Heather: Choke slam?
Zoe: No.
Heather: Oh, what?
Zoe: I did do boxing.
Heather: What did you learn in boxing?
Zoe: I actually started moving while I'm punching today I'm learning some footwork.
Heather: Oh, fancy. Anyways. Dun. Um, yeah, he chokes, slander, and then the cops come, whatever, separate them.
And then Ally's mom came like the next weekend and like moved her out into an Airbnb. And Ali was saying, she's like, I didn't even know if I wanted to go. If my mom wasn't coming and if I didn't have her support, I probably wouldn't have left, even though I knew I should. Fucking good for her. So it's a lot because-
Zoe: So is James now in rehab?
Heather: No.
Zoe: Okay. He's still drinking?
Heather: Yes. He's on tour right now. So he's a DJ. Ally said that when he was on tour he said he wasn't drinking. Maybe it's because she does not know what addiction is. Maybe it's 'cause she's never been with an addict. She's not an addict herself, so she doesn't know and she wants to believe him at face value.
But for two months when he was on [00:18:00] the road DJing nightclubs, you think that he's sober? Okay. And now we're at Kathy Hilton's party and you're realizing he's not sober and then he drop slams you and then Nick- so they go through this whole interview and Nick Viall at some point goes like, okay, I just wanna be like clear about the domestic abuse, like did that happen? And she just takes a giant circle around the conversation. You know, that's not even, I'm not even really mad. Right. The thing I was really mad about was like the lying and the drinking. And I was like, you're not even gonna fucking touch it. No. I don't know if she can, I don't know.
Maybe there's a lawsuit she might not be able to say, but to me I was like, you're protecting him.
Zoe: Yep. Are they broken up?
Heather: Yeah.
Zoe: Okay.
Heather: But they've also broken up before, like they've been in and out because of his drinking. And she, she told him like she gave him an ultimatum and was like, if you don't stop drinking, I'm done.
And he knew that she was done. Done.
Zoe: Well I hope she's done. Done. [00:19:00]
Heather: And then he started hiding it. And that's when it became a problem. Because he was drinking openly but not hiding it very well. And then finally when she was like, no more, 'cause you're a fucking psycho, he, that's when he had to start hiding it.
That's when it got bad.
Zoe: 'Cause he obviously can't stop 'cause he is an addict.
Heather: And when you start hiding it, that's when it gets crazy because you have to do an abundance in a short amount of time. You have to drink really hard. You have to do coke when they're not around. Then you start doing weird things like you drink a lot, like an hour before they get home and you're like, I'll be fine.
Zoe: And you're not. And you're not. Uh, stuff like this when you're just freshly out of a toxic relationship you don't fully see the full picture yet. You know, give her a few more months. Hopefully she stays out of it and she will see the full circle of how messed up it was.
Heather: The frustrating thing for me, you know, there's a bunch of things, but Ally sought out James.
She had seen the show. She knew who he was. He was a full alcoholic. He was abusing Kristen Doute. He spit at her and so she knew,
Zoe: She knew what she was getting into.
Heather: Kind of like, you never [00:20:00] really know, but like, I don't know.
Zoe: That doesn't, doesn't mean she deserves that.
Heather: Well, what it shows me is that he's really, really good at showing you-
Zoe: At manipulating.
Heather: And showing you what you wanna see. And at the beginning I'm sure he's fine. And, and, and at the beginning of every relationship-
Zoe: it's fun to be an alcoholic at the beginning, and
Heather: you often are drinking, you're going out, you're like, lubing it up. You're like having sex. So you might not notice how much someone is actually drinking if you're drinking with them.
Zoe: How long were they together?
Heather: I think like three years. Oh, wow. Okay. And Kristen Doute, this whole time has been like, he's an abuser. He's an abuser. Like, come on. And so Nick was asking her like, do you now kind of believe Rachel and Kristen? And she's like, you know, everyone has their own story. And I'm like, oh, you're protecting him. And it's so hard to watch.
Zoe: I know. It's, well, it's like when your friends are stuck in an abusive relationship too. It's so hard to watch them be stuck in it. And I feel like that's how I am interpreting this. It's just like she's just so freshly out of it that she needs more time to process what actually happened to her because [00:21:00] guys are so good at manipulating when they're abusive and a drunk. So good at it. And she she was a victim of that. And she just needs some more time to process what just happened to her. And I really hope that she does and stays away from that behavior. And James, go to rehab.
Heather: Holy shit.
And this is the thing we, the way we're talking about this, I'm so mad at him. I am. And I, I do have empathy and I do have compassion because alcoholism and addiction is no fucking joke. And no one wants to be in it. It doesn't feel good. The second- and you can't tell anyone. Like you can't tell.
Oh we always say this like you're, if you don't wanna go get clean, if you don't wanna go to rehab, or if you're not ready, it's not gonna work. The second you put someone else's life in danger, the second you hurt somebody physically or verbally, you gotta go. The second you bring someone else into that bullshit and hurt them.
Zoe: But it seems you like he's been doing this for years. If he did it to Rachel, he did it to Ally. It's been happening for [00:22:00] years and years and years. So something else is gonna happen to happen to bring him to his knees. Did you listen to Ed Sheeran's podcast? Uh, on Call Her Daddy?
Heather: No, I didn't. Was it good?
Zoe: Uh, well, he was saying that he's not drinking as much or like partying as much, and he did admit that he was drinking every single day and like partying whatever that means.
He's like, I'm not drinking every day anymore. I drink like once a week, blah, blah, blah. But I used to drink every single day and he admitted that. He didn't say like he was an alcoholic or an addict or anything, but him admitting that he was drinking every single day. This is a telltale sign that he did somewhat have a problem with it.
And he did admit that he is building a better relationship to alcohol right now.
Heather: Wow.
Zoe: Love you, Ed.
Heather: Couldn't be me.
Zoe: Couldn't be me either.
Heather: Do you think that's an addict?
Zoe: I think there's different levels to addicts, you know? I'm a type three addict. I can't control my drinking.
Heather: I've never heard that before. Is that a real thing that you've heard? Like
Zoe: Yeah, that's what they say in like the meetings.
Heather: A [00:23:00] type three addict is you just have to be done.
Zoe: Yeah.
Heather: Okay. Me too.
Okay.
Zoe: I think like there's different levels to it. Like if you can control your drinking good for you. Couldn't be me, but like if you can and if you cut it in the butt right then and there and-
Heather: Cut it in the butt?
Zoe: If you nip it in the butt, is that the expression?
Heather: I think it's nip it in the bud.
Zoe: Oh
Heather: But cut it in the butt is really fucking funny. If you can cut, if you can nip it in the bud right there yeah, then,
Zoe: Then it's like, good for you. And that's great, you know? I wish I could have done that.
Heather: If you're actively controlling your drinking and you're like, okay, I'm only drinking this, you're probably still thinking about it all day.
Zoe: And that's another thing. And like if Ed's thinking like, oh, I can't wait till Wednesday when I can go on a date with my wife and have our bottle of wine together then that's also a problem. If you're doing any everything, because like you're excited for that one thing, that's a problem. But also, who am I to say?
Because I get excited for my cigarettes every [00:24:00] five hours too.
Heather: I know. It's just a really fucking exhausting thing to like, think about all the time.
This morning I was listening to Dax Shepherd's podcast. I just like wake up and immediately start listening to podcasts. Monica Lewinsky's back. She's back in action. I fucking love her so much. And she, I mean, obviously go listen to the interview. It's so good. But she's 51. Okay. She was talking about like love and relationships and, 'cause she's just a girl at the end of the day.
Zoe: She was on Dax Shepherd's podcast like a year or two ago.
Heather: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but now she's back 'cause she has a, a new thing she's working on. She has a new podcast. She said, um, something that broke my heart. She was like, I've never been the love of anyone's life. And I was like, holy shit.
Like, that's so sad to me. And I think about it all the time when before we started this podcast and before when I first started going back to therapy after I got sober, I saw this girl, [00:25:00] this woman on TikTok, who was like 40, and she was like, I'm 40. I don't really have any friends. And I've never been in a romantic relationship.
I've never been in love. I've never, I don't know, maybe she, I dunno if she was a virgin, but like, I was like, holy fuck, is that gonna be me? Like, am I just straight up? 'cause that happens. It's like, I don't know. It's like those-
Zoe: I like seeing those tiktoks and they're like, I've just, there's one in my head and this girl's like, I believe in love because I'm traveling abroad right now, and I haven't talked to my best friend in two months, but I know that when I go home, like we're, we're right back where we left off.
And that's like love to me, you know? And like, love to me isn't even like necessarily thinking about relationships romantically all the time. Like that is what I cherish the most right now in my life is my female friendships. That's what's most important to me right now.
Heather: No, I think it's really good.
I, I do, I feel like I'm in the era of female friendships and it's really fucking nice.
Zoe: You're sober, you have your girlfriends now. Like, that's what [00:26:00] you should focus on. And the guys will come in as they do, you know?
Heather: And when they do come in, I'm kind of like, you're not as good as my girls.
Zoe: Like, and that's how it should be. We need to have a high standard for these men. And that's how I find-
Heather: I mean, I do, I I have high, I don't have five standards for many. Are you kidding me? I like, I'm the worst. But, but we need to, I have very,
Zoe: We'll start getting there and I feel like I started to somehow get there and that's how I found my man.
Did you love how the, they wrapped up the girlfriend group in White Lotus? I thought it was nice.
Heather: Yeah, I did.
Zoe: I like teared up a bit honestly.
Heather: I, I did think it was nice and I, I just, that made me really nervous. That also was another thing where I was like, okay, you guys are friends, but you don't communicate.
And like that's a hard one. And I think that you don't realize you have to communicate until there's a conflict. You are like, our friendship has no basis of good, solid conversation, but I,
Zoe: I did, make me proud of my, myself and my friends. But like I was [00:27:00] gonna say, there's so many friends like that probably in the world.
And yeah, it's just like, you do love them even though you treat them like shit. I don't know. It's like, I liked how they wrapped that up.
Heather: I really don't have this thing anymore. I used to probably 'cause I was drunk and depressed, but I really don't have this thing anymore where like, if something good happens to a girlfriend, I feel immediately evil towards them.
Like, I used to feel so jealous and be like, I would find the one thing about them that I like. Oh, this person got this opportunity. That's like, yeah, but she's ugly. Like that's, I dunno, just for example's sake, but like my friend Paige is moving to New York. . And when she got that opportunity, I was like, I told her straight up.
I was like, I'm gonna be very jealous. This might be hard for me. Um, but I wanna be there for you as your best friend, but just so you know-
Zoe: You recognized what you were feeling and that's great.
Heather: But I feel like those girls watching White Lotus, it triggered me 'cause I was like, Ooh, you guys think you're best friends, but you're so insecure that every time one of you is away, you [00:28:00] have to talk shit about each other to like figure out who's the . You know, the bully in all of this. I did not like that. I don't want friends like that. I can't.
Zoe: I don't want friends like that either but it's just like, it shows that like, I don't know. They like make it work somehow. And they recognized it at the end, like that's what they're doing. I don't know.
Heather: And all friendships come in different sizes. I think that's also important to learn too. It's like some friends are like your emotional friends. Some friends are your, you hang out with them and some of them just start to
Zoe: Such a wease away.
Heather: I was gonna say wease away too. And that's not a word.
Zoe: It's a Zoe word, okay.
Heather: I know, but I was gonna say it too. I don't know where that was coming from. So, speaking of not ever being the love of anybody's life, um, let's get into, I wanna get into a little bit, we're gonna go back in time. We're gonna talk about relationships.
Zoe: Finally we talk about the boys.
Heather: We're finally getting into it. Let's do some pre sobriety relationships.
Zoe: [00:29:00] BS is what I say
Heather: Before. Sobriety. BSB, Before Sobriety Boys. Does that even count these relationships? Pre sobriety?
Zoe: I don't really count them that much because I don't know if I really liked any of them.
Heather: Well, what about when you were little, little?
Zoe: When I was little, little? I had crushes.
Heather: You did? I, I actually don't know this about you. Like I am a very romantic person. Are you? Like, when you were a kid, when you were like six years old? Were you like, now I have a crush on someone at school?
Zoe: I definitely had crushes, but I was never a lover girl, to be honest.
I never like believed in the, um, fall in love with the first guy, you know? Love of your life thing. No, I was never,
Heather: Why?
Zoe: I don't know why
Heather: That's so, like, it's so like neutral and like objective. How were you objective at a young age? I don't have that.
Zoe: Maybe 'cause I had like multiple crushes even when I was in elementary school. Like I could never pick.
Heather: That's true. You're like, we're gonna have to [00:30:00] set a schedule here. Yeah, yeah, I want all of them.
Zoe: I, I probably had a crush on like three boys in elementary school.
Heather: Did you have a boyfriend in elementary school?
Zoe: No.
Heather: Really? Okay. I had two boyfriends.
Zoe: Oh, okay.
Heather: My first boyfriend was Christopher.
I was stealing from him though. Ooh. In grade one, actually, actually, I was in love with him in kindergarten. Then we were in grade one together, Mrs. Weisman's class, and she used to pull people by the ear. She was a real twat. Um, don't know why you're teaching kids if you hate them, by the way.
Zoe: Yeah, and that's don't like abused kids if you're teaching them.
Heather: That's a, that's a fun theme. That'll come up again, won't it? If you, we'll talk about that later. If you don't like kids, don't teach them.
So, when I grew up, I was, I was at an elementary school, public school, and I was in love with Christopher, and then I was stealing his chits. We had these things called chits, which were like little coupons, like little tickets. And at the end of the week, you could like trade it in for like, I [00:31:00] don't know, a prize.
Zoe: Did you ever get the chits taken away?
Heather: No. And no one ever took my chits because I never got any. I couldn't read or write.
Zoe: So they only gave you a chit if you did good in school?
Heather: Yeah and this was in grade one. So I had already started my, like not doing well in school streak. Like I was a C student. I could write a story though.
I could write a story. But yeah, I was stealing from Christopher so that I could like get prizes. And so that was like a very toxic relationship.
Zoe: Did did he know that?
Heather: No, he didn't know. He is really, really sweet and I never spoke to him again. But when I got back to high school and I went back into the public stream, I saw him and I was like, oh my God, that's my first love.
Zoe: And did he like stay as cute as you remembered?
Heather: No.
Zoe: No. They never do.
Heather: No, no, no, no. Well, you can't really beat six years old. That's the cutest you're ever gonna be. And then I was in love with Jordan. Now Jordan came into my life when I was in first grade.
Jordan was adopted.
And that was so fucking exhilarating to me. [00:32:00] Now, if this was me talking at 30 years old, you'd be like, well that feels like a, a white savior situation. No. I just loved the fact that something had happened and Jordan's parents weren't his parents. And I just thought that was so cool. So I wanted to be with him.
Zoe: It was interesting and new. It was like you wanted to see what that was like.
Heather: Well, before I knew about trauma, I was really attracted to trauma. I still am. But like even before then, I was like, something must have happened here. Your parents are not your own. Tell me. And so I was in love with him. We used to hold hands.
Zoe: Aw. That's really sweet.
Heather: I know. Very cute.
Zoe: Um, one of my first, um, I don't know if we were ever dating in grade seven or grade eight, but I think we like had a thing, whatever that meant. He stole my phone. Criminal.
Heather: What do you mean he stole your phone?
Zoe: I mean, like, I think Well, okay. I'll tell you the whole lore. Maybe grade seven. Um, we had this like flirtatious thing. I lost my phone. I'm like, where's my phone everybody? No one knew where my phone was. And I went home from school without my phone. I didn't have a phone for- [00:33:00]
Heather: Were you drinking?
Zoe: a couple weeks. No, I wasn't drinking. And that's the crazy part. Remember VSCO?
Heather: VSCO cam? Yeah.
Zoe: I'm like on my friend's phone 'cause I still, still haven't found my phone. Maybe a month later I am like stalking this guy. And he had a selfie, a mirror selfie, and the phone was my phone. So the next day I'm in grade seven, I confront him. I'm like, oh, I saw your VSCO. You have my phone.
Heather: You little fuck.
Zoe: And I was so angry at him. Um, and he's like, yeah, like, I'm so sorry. It was just supposed to be a joke, but then you got really, really upset and I didn't know how to tell you. And I'm like, uh, you stole my phone. And I was so mad, and I don't think I talked to him for the rest of that year because I'm like, you screwed me over.
Why did you take, that? Doesn't make any sense. Don't take what's mine.
Heather: You, you tricked me into thinking that you liked me and then you stole from me.
Zoe: No, but he liked me so much that he couldn't like admit that he stole it because he took it too [00:34:00] far, you know? Anyways, in grade eight, I think he like apologized to me and I was like, yeah, sorry, I haven't talked to you.
Whatever. We like made amends in grade eight, I go off to Sarnia for high school. I come back in grade like nine and we go to the high school that he went to in Oakville. And we do molly, and we smoke weed and we drink, and we end up fucking on the, um, elementary school playground where we went to elementary school together,
Heather: Where it all started.
Zoe: Where it all started.
Heather: Oh. So that's a fun full circle moment. I love it. When you were in high school and you were starting to date, Well, I didn't have sex, I guess.
Zoe: I didn't really date anyone until the end of high school.
Heather: Okay. What were you, but you were having crushes on people dating? Yeah, dating at the end of high school. What were you looking for from boys?
Zoe: I was looking for them to supply me alcohol and weed.
Heather: Okay. That's what I thought you were gonna say. I was looking for someone to like me. That's it.
Zoe: I wasn't looking for that at all. I was always just looking for like a drinking buddy or like someone to like, keep [00:35:00] me fucked up.
Heather: Did you, did boys just like you were, were you like, was it easy?
Like did you have a-
Zoe: Not necessarily because I was, I wasn't known when I went to high school in Sarnia. I was like the one from out of town that no one really knew. Everyone in Sarnia grew up together. And so everyone knew everybody except for me. So I was kinda like the odd one out.
Heather: When I went to high school, I was coming from private school. So similar, but the differences that, like I knew a lot of those people already from like four years ago. From like grade three. So that was a really fucking weird thing to come back in and I actually have no friends and they know me and they know I don't have any friends.
That was really fun. I was in love with everybody though. I was always in love with a boy. Any anything like I
Zoe: Did it change like every year? Did the boy change every year?
Heather: Every, every year? Every month. I was like new boy.
Zoe: And what did you like have fantasies about them and like make up storylines that they were like, your boyfriend?
Heather: Oh my God. I was gonna marry every single one of these dumb kids. I just, and I never spoke to any of them, by the way. [00:36:00] Like nobody, I was weird, and I've said this before, but I would be on MSN just professing my love to these boys and never speaking to them like I would be.
Zoe: You would message them?
Heather: Yeah.
Zoe: You would say, Hey, I like you.
Heather: Well, we would just be like messaging on MSN all the time and you'd be like, love you, love you. L-U-V-L-U-V two, you know, Uhhuh and like that was with everybody. I had boyfriends on MSN. Never spoke to them in person.
Zoe: Crazy.
Heather: Were you having MSN relationships?
Zoe: I was not having relationships. I was crushing on anybody who gave me attention and that attention looked like giving me alcohol and weed and like hanging out with me like that.
Heather: Was that feeling of them liking you, consuming to you at all? Like were you thinking about it in your bed at night?
Zoe: I don't know. I was thinking, I was just like thinking about like getting fucked up with them and like having sex.
Like I like to the act. The act, the physical act instead of like the emotional love, whatever that is.
Heather: Are you still like that?
Zoe: I think [00:37:00] so.
Heather: Interesting.
Zoe: We're trying to break me down a little bit guys. We're trying to like. Make me a little bit more emotional.
Heather: It's an, it's so interesting to me. The first time you had sex, were you drinking?
Zoe: I wasn't drunk. I was super duper high though.
Heather: On weed?
Zoe: Yes.
Heather: Okay. How was it?
Zoe: It was both of our first times. It was like, I don't know. I was very stoned. He was very stoned. It wasn't great. It was mid, I think.
Heather: You weren't scared?
Zoe: No, I just wanted it to be over with because all of the cool kids in my grade and grade nine in high school were just talking about like having sex and wanting to have sex and blah, blah, blah, and I was like-
Heather: In grade nine? God, you're so fucking cool about shit.
Zoe: I don't, I think it's like cool. I think it's just like I was kind of, I am a little bit blocked off by love.
Heather: Why?
Zoe: I don't know. Maybe. 'cause my parents were never in love.
Heather: You don't think they're, you don't think they were in love?
Zoe: They never showed it to me. They, uh, they never really [00:38:00] kissed. They, I've seen them kiss once.
Heather: My parents definitely kissed. Like, I feel like they kissed every day when he got home from work. I feel like it was like, hi, hi, muah, muah. But I was about to say, but I never saw a passionate kiss. That would be insane.
To watch your parents passionately kiss.
Zoe: I think I wanna passionately kiss in front of my kids.
Heather: You want to?
Zoe: I do. Is that weird?
Heather: No, I don't think it's weird.
Zoe: I think it's just like you should show your kids love. I think, and maybe that's why I never really like, knew what love was. And understood it really.
And I just liked the physical part of it and liked the being fucked up with someone else and had that comfort in being fucked up with someone.
Heather: It's interesting.
Zoe: That was love to me, like being fucked up with a significant other and just hanging out.
Heather: Did that feel like love?
Zoe: I think so.
Heather: Okay. So it wasn't like something that he did for you or like a way he made you feel?
It was like in those moments of like fucking, and drugs and shit. You're like, this is comfy. This is love.
Zoe: I think so.
Heather: Wow. This is so interesting.[00:39:00]
Zoe: Your first boyfriend.
Heather: My first boyfriend, were we boyfriend and girlfriend? I don't know, but this kid I was in love with. In eighth grade I was still at a private school, had a-
Zoe: Did you kiss him?
Heather: No.
Zoe: Okay. Did you hold his hand?
Heather: No.
Zoe: Whoa.
Heather: Nothing. Nothing, nothing. But I met Jake. Let's call him Jake. Jake. I met Jake at.
A fair at the fairgrounds. I know.
Zoe: Oh, I love that. Little Notebook.
Heather: My friend actually liked him and so I was like hanging out with his other friend. Let's call him Will. That's his real name. And um, we were going on like the grinder together, so we were together. But then I, the other guy, Jake, messaged me after and was like, Hey, you're really cute. And I was like, oh, he is in love with me and this is gonna be my husband. And then we had like a Facebook relationship. We were married on Facebook at one point. MSN, I love you so much. Then one time we hung out with his friend and my [00:40:00] dance friend. It was like the dancers and the hockey guys.
We hung out at the ODR, the outdoor rink, and I didn't speak one word to him the whole time.
Zoe: But you guys were madly in love?
Heather: Yes. And then we went back to my friend's house and we watched a movie. I didn't speak to him once. Oh, I was so weird. I was so awkward. Awkward,
Zoe: So scared, so weird.
Heather: Terrified. I'd never even really touched a boy and I knew that he had been like fingering, so that was never gonna happen with me. I was never gonna let a boy touch my vagina. Are you fucking kidding? That's insane. And then I was like really worried that that's how relationships were gonna go. Like I would have good rapport with them online and then we'd meet each other.
And then, so I started drinking because it was easier to like date, but not yet.
Zoe: So you were too online. You were too online when you were young and you didn't know how to act in real life.
Heather: No, and I also didn't have time 'cause I was so fucking busy. I was like at school all day and then dance till 10:00 PM so I didn't have any friends and except for dance.
Was peer pressure a big thing for you in terms of like who you were dating or like hooking up with? Like would you only do it if like your friend said it [00:41:00] was cool or like,
Zoe: I think so. I think like that's what made me like the peer pressure, I was peer pressured for sure to like have sex because everyone said that was cool.
So that's why I was like, okay, like let's do it. Let's have sex. Wow. And then, yeah, like I slept with like a few people throughout high school and didn't fall in love with him, but they also like, didn't really fall in love with me either. Um, but I just like did it because they were steamed hot. And my friends thought it would be cool for me to like hook up with them.
Heather: Were your friends also having sex?
Zoe: Yes.
Heather: Okay.
Zoe: A hookup in high school even was like smoke weed with them, drink with them, hook up, you know, it wasn't sober.
Heather: And then was the entire school talking about it the next day? Because that's how my school was.
Zoe: Um, yes and no. I don't know. 'cause I don't know if I really like-
Heather: gave a fuck?
Zoe: Gave a fuck because I was like so involved with like my [00:42:00] addiction already, you know?
Heather: Wow. Wow.
Zoe: Like I, in gym class, I was like smoking weed in the, like, where they kept the balls in the gym court. Like I, me and this kid named Moose, his nickname was Moose.
So everyone will know that, like, yeah, we would just smoke weed together in like the gym hallway thing.
Heather: Such a bad girl.
Zoe: And then we'd like run away.
Heather: Was there anybody in your school that you were like in love with though? Like was there a, an untouchable, was there somebody ever that you were like, I'm in love with that person, but you never,
Zoe: Honestly, I really thought that the guy ended up dating when I went back to Sarnia for Covid, I thought he was so hot.
I mean, he was an alcoholic. He, I mean, he's cute. Yes.
Heather: Who cares?
Zoe: Who cares? He was, he provided me booze. He was cute. Well, like, these guys would have like a sesh tent in their backyard that we would all just like hang out when, for hours and like just drink and [00:43:00] smoke weed with them.
Heather: Were you the only girl?
Zoe: No, me and my, like I had different, I had like a couple different groups of friends in high school. Um, but there was always like at least two other girls with me.
Heather: Interesting.
Wow. I would've never been invited to those hangouts. You would've been like, she's a baby. Wow.
Zoe: People would like puke because they were so fucked up and, and then like make out and like we'd hear them fucking like, you know, it would just-
Heather: In high school?
Zoe: Yeah.
Heather: I wanted to be one of the boys always because I wasn't really fitting in with the girls. And that's also because I was not that mature, so that was hard for me.
Zoe: No, like me fitting in with the girls looked like in high school, us all drinking. Us all smoking weed and then we all had a knife to our legs or, and, or wrists.
Like we all had like a cutting circle at one point. I did it once or twice and I was like, Hey, this isn't for me and then just chugged a bottle of wine.
Heather: This is for me.
Zoe: This is for me. [00:44:00] So I did end up having a high school boyfriend at the end.
Heather: Who?
Zoe: His name will not be named, he.
It was like two years older than me. He lived on the worst street of Sarnia, like the poorest neighborhood In Sarnia with his mother, like living on welfare with his mother and his like five siblings. And I only was dating him because he provided me that house. I could smoke weed inside that house. In the other houses, like we had to hide it more.
But in that house, his mom really didn't give a shit. My mom at one point found out that I was smoking weed and like made me piss test to have my car back. I asked his mother to pee in a baby bottle for me to bring home for my mother, and she did it. Like this mother was crazy.
Heather: Holy fuck. Would you do that for your kids friend?
Zoe: For my kid's friend? No. [00:45:00] No, I don't think so. That's just not right.
Heather: It would have to be such a specific situation where like, I knew that kid was gonna get like beat or something. But no.
Zoe: No.
Heather: That's crazy. But that's also like,
Zoe: I don't, I don't know, I was just like, I, in, in 12th grade, I was already like four years into my addiction.
Right. So I was like bad, bad. Like I was already down bad. Um, I was doing whatever I needed to, to keep drinking and or smoking weed. And that meant asking my boyfriend's mom to pee in a cup for me so I could have my car.
Heather: Learning these survival skills so early. It's crazy. Did um, I was gonna ask you when you first started talking about him being like, he lived on welfare, he had all these fucking siblings in my head I was like, did you wanna save him?
Zoe: Yeah.
Heather: But then you did.
Zoe: I think so.
Heather: Okay. 'cause I, I was wondering what was more of a priority, like that's where you could go to drink.
Zoe: I think it was both.
Heather: Being someone that you, being a person that can save someone else did you like having men put you on a pedestal?
Zoe: I don't know [00:46:00] about the pedestal thing, but I also know that I think I liked him because like him and his mom had such a good relationship and they like had so much love, even though they lived in this shit ass house and I don't think I had that at all in high school because my parents were hating me because I was a drunk.
Heather: Wow.
Zoe: Um, so I think that's another reason why I liked him.
Heather: It must have felt weird to, to be like, if I did this at home, I get yelled at. But when we do it here this looks like love to me. And so why?
Zoe: Yeah.
Heather: You know?,
Zoe: Man, I feel like I'm in therapy right now. I've never really talked this deep about that before.
Heather: Well, it's interesting. It's super interesting and I, I, I feel like we flock to people who either like make us. Well, we flock to people who make us feel better about ourselves.
Zoe: Yeah.
Heather: We do. And like, you know, you can go there and like feel free. But it is confusing because now you know that his mom was probably quite wrong in that and yours was right [00:47:00] regardless of how anyone went about anything. But yeah, it's kind of a nice setup to go and not no one, no one gives a fuck.
Zoe: Because like at that point, I don't think I was spending like any time at home, I was just spending all my time at his house because I was free to do whatever I wanted.
And I think like that was just me rebelling against my parents. That was me like going somewhere. That allowed me to be an alcoholic and an addict. I think back on that and I'm like, oh my God, that's insane. Like this guy was, not a good guy at all.
Heather: But you were also a kid.
Zoe: I was also 16 years old.
Heather: You're a child.
Zoe: Yeah,
Heather: I know. I always forget you have a late birthday, so you came here when you were 17. Like that's young.
Zoe: I came here when I was 17.
Heather: It's really young. My whole life I've changed my life. I've made decisions based on boys and what they were doing and I've fucked up my life to do so.
Uh, when I went to high school in ninth grade, I decided to go to the public high [00:48:00] school when I had also auditioned for the Arts High school um, that all of like my favorite dancers went to.
Zoe: Right.
Heather: And I was like, yeah, I'm gonna do that. And then I met that fucking kid that Jake, right in eighth grade we met.
We met in eighth grade and I was like, I got into the arts school and I was like, I just wanna go to public school and be a normal kid.
Zoe: Oh, wow. Oh my God. I've never went there for him.
Heather: Literally have never said that out loud. And I'm, wow. Holy shit. That feels so weird to say. 'cause I, I really, that was my entire high school where my life would've been different if I, I mean, I don't know.
Ariane went to that school and then we also both ended up in Boston together so maybe, but no, it's-
Zoe: Everything happens for a reason. And I'm not saying that it's bad to do that, but like, yeah, a lot of, a lot of young girls do change their whole trajectory for a man, I think actually. And that's, and that's so normal, you know?
Heather: But I think it's not good. It's not good sitting here now. I've done it. I like gave up. I gave up my life in New York because I was in such a toxic, [00:49:00] codependent relationship, long distance. And New York just wasn't fitting into it. And so I was like, yeah, okay, I'll fucking leave. And like I did, and it ruined my life for a long time.
Then I started drinking real fucking hard 'cause I lost everything. And that was because I wanted to like, make him happy and be closer to him and it's like I can never, ever, ever put someone else's happiness before mine.
Zoe: No.
Heather: Or someone else's wants or needs. Even if it's a relationship, it's like, fuck that.
Zoe: And now we know that 'cause we're sober.
Heather: But I almost, I almost left rehab early than I was meant to because I was dating somebody at the time. We'll get into that. But like I, and then I remember in rehab, I was like, no, you're not gonna leave early just so you can go see him.
This is a thing that you're doing for you. If he's not there when you leave, if you like need extra time here and he's gone, then he's gone.
Zoe: And you only could [00:50:00] realize that because you had some brain cells reforming again.
Heather: And not to fucking mention, I've ruined my life over boys my whole fucking life.
Like, I was a very talented dancer and I was like, just ready to give it up for like a fairytale life I had planned in my head. And it just like, it do don't, it doesn't do that. It doesn't work like that. Like make yourself happy. First, prioritize yourself and then when you're happy, then you can invite other happiness into your life.
Zoe: I need a little bit of like your love energy because like, I'm so like not love. It's like it's so new to me, you know?
Heather: I know. It's so weird. Like, are you, um,
Zoe: And you need more of like my don't care about at the middle.
Heather: I do. I really, really do.
Zoe: And I need to like care about them a little bit more.
I do care about 'em. It's just like, it's so new that-
Heather: You're also so independent.
Zoe: I'm too independent almost and it's like-
Heather: I don't, I don't know about too. You're just so good at like doing [00:51:00] your life and like doing what you need to do and being a good friend. Like you, you've got your thing figured out.
It's kind of like, I don't need to figure, like just jump in.
Zoe: I didn't realize that you chose such big life decisions for boys.
Heather: I dunno what it is. It's like when I was in high school, nobody liked me. . And I was getting bullied by the boys. I didn't know what to do. And then I went to college and I was like, this is where you meet your husband or your partner, whatever the fuck. And. At that time I was as straight as could get. And I was like, all the men here are gay, so that's not gonna happen for me. And then I just never, it never happened for me. I was a virgin forever. And it just like never happened. And I was like, oh, I'm not, I'm not good enough for any of these people.
I'm never gonna be enough. And then, so I just-
Zoe: So when finally someone liked you, you were like clung onto that.
Heather: And I was like, if this person loves me, this is the one. And it's a fluke. And [00:52:00] so I have to do everything in my power to keep him, and that means sacrificing my whole life.
Zoe: Interesting.
Heather: And then you gotta say, if you've sacrificed everything about yourself, why do they even like you anymore? Right. He didn't, it was just a toxic, abusive, controlling thing. You couldn't have liked me. I had literally nothing anymore. I was like done. And all I was doing was like kissing the ground he fucking walked on. Bullshit. I took him to the doctor because he had something, a rash on his penis and he told me that he cheated on me and 'cause he was so fucking nervous that he had a rash on his penis and he didn't really speak English, so I helped, I went to the doctor with him.
Zoe: This is the one from Guatemala?
Heather: Yes.
Alcohol wasn't really in my dating relationships until my Guatemalan boyfriend and then I remember that when we were drinking a lot, but it was also like wonderlust and it was like, we're in Guatemala and like nothing can happen and this relationship sucks, but like we're drinking and we're partying and we're dancing and it's,
Zoe: We're acting like everything's okay.
Heather: I also like would do a thing where I was like, [00:53:00] oh well he is, you know, Guatemalan and he's just like that. And when he was like mean to me and I'm like, oh, it's a different culture. That's a crazy.
Zoe: Would he only be mean to you when he was drinking or like all the time?
Heather: He was great. When we were together.
It was when we were, it was when we were apart. When we would be texting, like when we were long distance. I was in Boston or New York. It was horrible. He would just like accuse me of cheating on him all the time. When he knew that he was the only boy I'd ever had sex with.
I went to dance school and he was hanging out with my gay male friends in New York in the middle of the day getting coffee and he accused me of fucking them all. And anytime I would be like, oh yeah, my friend, he's gay. Oh, all of your friends are gay? All of my friends are gay. I'm a dancer. You dick.
But it was very, it was all jealousy. It was so much manipulation.
It was so much breaking up with me all the time, telling me I was a slut. Telling me,
Zoe: God exhausting,
Heather: Exhausting.
Zoe: Exhausting. I think the pattern with my boyfriend's BS was they would like me because I was [00:54:00] cool and drunk and then like six months into the relationship I would keep getting too drunk and they didn't like me as much anymore because I, I was drinking so much and then I could feel them pull back and then I got like, so crazy and would message 'em all the time and show up at their house and be like, why do you love me anymore?
Heather: Oh no.
Zoe: Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Heather: Oh no.
Zoe: And that's how it would end.
Heather: Oh, fucking hell. Okay. So you were like a jealous and jealous girl.
Zoe: 'Cause they didn't love me anymore because of my drinking. I'm like, this is why I thought we hung out. Because of my drinking.
Heather: That's a confusing one. When you start dating somebody. My ex, after the Guatemalan, we met at Aritzia and when we started dating we were drinking a lot.
We were gonna the wine rack and getting like a big bottle of wine. And then like drinking at his house or like going out for dinner, get drinking there and then going home, drinking, having sex, whatever. And like the first time I slept at his house, I was, I got there wasted because I [00:55:00] was at a Hanukkah party and got really drunk and then got dropped off at his house.
Zoe: Interesting.
Heather: And and I was so drunk, but we he didn't care at that time for some reason. He didn't really know me, I guess. And he wasn't grossed out by that. I think he was just like, oh, someone likes me. And then I remember one day we were at his house and I was like, do you wanna go get some wine?
And he's like, I just don't think I wanna drink tonight. I don't really drink this much.
Zoe: Do you think he saw how you were acting and was like, okay, I can't act like that?
Heather: I think in the beginning he was a little naive to stuff. And I think that that's why it worked for a while. No, I think genuinely he just was like, I can't function if I'm drinking every single night.
And didn't realize that I needed to drink every night. Because by that time I was already drinking every day. Like when I worked at Aritzia, I was leaving work, I would come home and get a bottle of wine. So I was drinking every day already, but it was still tame. Like, so I really bamboozled him after like three months he moved in with me and then I think he was like, oh [00:56:00] fuck,
Zoe: What did I do?
Heather: This bitch is drinking hard after spin class. With him, that was my like big relationship where I realized like, okay, like the drinking is bad but I'm not gonna do anything about it. I was choosing alcohol over him all the time. He would ask me to stop, he would ask me to go out.
Hang out with his family. And I would just get so fucked up. I remember even during Covid, we would play these like family party online games. I don't know, with his family. He has 1000 family members, he's Filipino and they love playing games and I would just be on there drinking hard and like going into the bathroom and drinking at like 9:00 AM 'cause I was like, I can't play this game with your fucking family full family if I'm sober, I don't wanna play games. But that was really hard for him. Really hard. And I just was like, I know I feel bad, but I'm choosing alcohol over you. And that was like the demise of our relationship. It just was.
Zoe: I think all of my [00:57:00] boyfriends asked me to stop and I didn't. I couldn't.
Heather: Were they stopping?
Zoe: No, I first year boyfriend, he was kind of like, I think he made the toxicity like normal for me because like he would say all the time like, oh, I'm just gonna go home and kill myself. And I'm like, wait, what? Um, he started like, he made that seem to be like an okay statement to say all the time and to use that against me.
And then I started to use that against him.
Heather: Okay. Okay. And like a, now if you leave me, I'll kill myself.
Zoe: Yeah, exactly.
Heather: Classic.
Zoe: And then I think that projected me to like use that against my other relationships and against him.
Heather: I don't remember saying it, but I know in my heart I used to text it. I'm gonna fucking kill myself. I mean, it does feel like death when [00:58:00] someone breaks up with you. It literally feels like death. To me anyway. Horrible. Have you ever had any bad breakups?
Zoe: I mean, like, I thought they were like all bad at the, when they happened, I guess.
Heather: Like you cried?
Zoe: Yeah.
Heather: Okay. Okay. I've just never seen an ounce of you crying, so I just don't believe that you did.
Zoe: But like, I was like a hysterical drunk crying. You know, like was it a performance? Maybe a bit. 'cause I was a drunk. I don't know. Did I actually care about any of these men? I don't know. I was just a drunk.
Heather: Oh my God, you're so right. The performances that I would put on to like get men to stay-
Zoe: Exactly.
Heather: Is nuts.
Zoe: And I don't think I wanted them to stay as a person. I just wanted the company. I didn't like them. I liked the company of a man drinking with me
Heather: And thinking I'm pretty, honestly. I didn't wanna do that shit by myself. It was so nice. But I, I never really found a good drinking buddy in any man.
Which is a bummer.
Zoe: Well, my last one was like, the best probably 'cause we would get [00:59:00] fucked up together
Heather: Is that the last one before rehab?
Zoe: Yeah.
Heather: Okay. Tell me about him.
Zoe: Well, he's the ex footballer.
Heather: Oh, this one. Okay. And then when did you guys break up?
Zoe: We broke up probably like maybe a year before I went to rehab, but we were still sleeping with each other, like on and off while we were broken up. It was very toxic.
Heather: Have you texted him since rehab?
Zoe: Yep.
Heather: Whoa. And?
Zoe: We like texted a lot right after rehab. He came over to my house the summer after rehab.
So I was like, what? Eight months sober. And he came over, he was drinking throughout the whole time. I obviously wanted to have sex 24/7 because I'm sober and I'm a little freak.
He could only have sex twice because he's a drunk and an addict. He told, he promised me that he wasn't gonna do coke while he stayed with me. He, he did coke while I was at work and lied to me about it and told me,
Heather: Yeah, we can, we can tell. 'cause your dick doesn't get hard.
Zoe: [01:00:00] Literally like, no, but like, I can't believe I invited him to my house when I was sober.
Like, that's what I mean. Like I have so much growth even in sobriety. Like I can't imagine me inviting him ever to my house ever again. But no. Like, he still will Snapchat me out of the blue,
Heather: That's 'cause when you get sober, you like, learn a lot of things, but your self worth has to catch up, right?
Zoe: That's so true.
Heather: It's a slow process. You can like-
Zoe: Well, and I think I wanted to prove to him like, Hey, I'm normal now if you want, and I wanna see you see that I'm normal. And also, like I'd said, I, I did my research and I fucked everyone who I slept with before sobriety, after sobriety. I had to see how they were.
Heather: I love that. And how was it?
Zoe: The sex? Mid.
Heather: Mid. God damnit.
Before I went to rehab, I was dating this guy and I [01:01:00] genuinely forget about this relationship all the time. And that's not because of him. I was so drunk. He lived in Ottawa. He was my friend's brother-in-law. We met on New Year's. I was so depressed. It was the New Year's before, so the new, that was January.
And then in March I went to rehab. So January to March we were dating. And I was like, I visited him in Ottawa. We were fucked the whole time. I liked him a lot, but I think I liked that he liked me and I think I liked that he didn't really get how big of a piece of fucking shit I was.
Zoe: Because it was new.
Heather: It was new.
Zoe: You could lie to him.
Heather: And he's also what, not a judgmental person. He is a very kind, very sweet person. Didn't see how fucking drunk I was though. And I was like drinking three bottles of wine a night at his house. And like smoking weed. And he was like surprised when I said I had to go to rehab.
I was like, okay.
Zoe: That's crazy. Like some people just like don't see it, I guess.
Heather: I [01:02:00] think people sometimes don't wanna see it.
Zoe: That's also true.
Heather: But it is disgusting. What I was doing. Oh, so it, it's weird to me like you start with a new girlfriend and she comes to visit you and she's laid out drunk all the time.
Mind you, I was drunk, so I was having a lot of sex with him.
Zoe: So, and that's all he cared about probably.
Heather: I mean, I think he's like a pretty romantic person and he did really like me, but I just, and I do feel bad about that because I went to rehab and he was my boyfriend, I guess, and we were talking all the time.
But then I met someone else. But that's okay. But it was a weird one. It's like we never should have been together. I was drunk the whole time. We had nothing in common really.
Zoe: Exactly. It just like happened upon you. I don't think you chose him to be your boyfriend.
Heather: Well, I, he asked me to be his girlfriend when I was wasted, and I said, yeah,
Zoe: Exactly. I don't think that counts.
Heather: No, it doesn't really count. Mind you, he was so lovely. So I got lucky that he was like a really a good guy. Really nice. But we had nothing in common. He was never gonna come to the city. He was never [01:03:00] gonna, we just were so different, but
Zoe: Going into rehab, I was single.
Heather: You were?
Zoe: Yeah.
Heather: But you had boys in the-
Zoe: I had boys in the roster.
Heather: Did you have to tell anyone, any other roster you were going?
Zoe: I don't think they cared about me that much.
Heather: But you also didn't have your phone in rehab. I keep thinking about that.
Zoe: No, I didn't have my phone in rehab, so I think like, I just like went ghost to a lot of the guys that I was seeing before rehab, before bs. Bs. I just like everyone that I was talking to fell off the roster really because I wasn't, I didn't have my phone.
Heather: I didn't have a roster. I was just on hinge all the time. And there's only one person that I'm still friends with and it's that guy that came over here the other night.
Which good, because all the other guys, I just don't, I don't even know them. One time I went over to someone's h Oh God, I'm sorry mom. I went over to someone's house, just I was on hinge, super drunk, [01:04:00] and I was like, do you want me to, do you want me to come over and suck your dick? Holy shit.
Zoe: No. I've had that experience at least 10 times.
Heather: It's crazy.
Zoe: It's, it's what we did like.
Heather: Yes. It's what we did.
Zoe: I definitely equate sex to love but like, I don't need it. Like, I like to feel that for a second and then I like, I wanna step back, you know?
Heather: From the love of it?
Zoe: From the love of it. Like I like to have it and then like leave it. If that makes sense.
Heather: Yeah, it, it does. I just wonder why.
Zoe: I guess I'm like just too afraid of it for some reason.
Heather: Does it scare you?
Zoe: I guess I'm really scared to get hurt.
Heather: To get hurt? That is fucking terrifying. You don't seem like the kind of person that's scared to get hurt.
Zoe: I am though. And maybe that's like why I like want to be in an open relationship because then they can never cheat on me and I can never get hurt.
Heather: It's like how do I keep myself feeling good and feeling safe and like not alone ever? Like if I'm in an open, there's other people that care about me.
I would love to be in an [01:05:00] open relationship. I think I just, I would really have to get over some hurdles.
Zoe: I think that you are a lover girl though.
Heather: Holy shit. I know.
Zoe: And it's fine. Like I need some of that, like I said, like I want to be more like giving and like more receiving to love.
Heather: Yeah, but it doesn't just happen. You can't just like make that switch. It's like a feeling in your body. You have to be more open, open to it or like feel safe.
And maybe that's what it is. Maybe it just like, it takes you a little longer with men to feel not physically safe but emotionally safe. It's a lot. Also, 'cause you're sex is like, you like it. You're like, I'm down for it. And you know how to take care of yourself in that way. Love is different.
It's like in someone else's hands how your emotions are.
Zoe: That's it. I don't, that scares me.
Heather: It's fucking terrifying. When you get into a relationship, are you thinking about the future? Like, are you thinking about like,
Zoe: I'm trying not to right now.
Heather: Okay. Like, do you like, does that I'm not like the [01:06:00] specific one.
But like, let's say when you first started talking to this guy were you like, oh, like down the line and like, future and kids and like,
Zoe: No.
Heather: You don't do that?
Zoe: No.
Heather: You don't future trip?
No.
Whoa.
Zoe: You know that I don't Future trip babe.
Heather: I know, but it's so, it's like part of me. I can't meet anybody and not future trip.
Like every single anyone I'm on hinge with, I look at them and I'm like, I wonder what our faces would look like together. Like I'm a freak like that. And you don't do that?
Zoe: No.
Heather: Wow. I mean, I, I, that's nice.
Zoe: I try not to like, and the more that you start dating guys, the more I hope, like, I think that this will not be a thing in your life.
Heather: Sober dating is hard.
Zoe: Sober dating is hard.
Heather: It's hard. I also don't know what I'm looking for. I don't know if I'm looking for something that,
Zoe: And you don't need to know what you're looking for. This is why you're gonna be dating guys to figure out what you want to figure out. What type of guys do you like? To [01:07:00] figure out what you like in bed to figure out what what you want in a man. Or a woman.
Heather: When I was drinking. I was looking for love. For sure. I know I was, even though I knew I was not in a place where I could get it.
Zoe: Do you think that they would save you from your drinking?
Heather: I was never looking to be saved from my drinking. I was-
Zoe: Then why were you looking for love?
Heather: Because I wanted to be loved and I just, I knew I wasn't going to get love because of like how I was and the way I looked and like all the drinking I was doing.
But I, I needed to feel some semblance of love. Like I told you, I used to like tell them to tell me they love me while they were fucking me because I needed to feel it. I just didn't think I was ever gonna get it. I was very fucking sad. That's like why I was drinking. I was so sad all the time.
So it was nice. It was nice to like be useful for somebody, and then I would hope that they would fall in [01:08:00] love with me and they never did.
Zoe: Well, like RuPaul says, you can't love yourself-
Heather: How the hell you gonna love somebody else?
Zoe: Period.
Heather: Well, I feel like that was it.
Zoe: I think so too.
Heather: BS boys.
Zoe: BS boys.
Heather: This is exciting. 'cause then next week we're gonna talk about post Sobriety Boys, which is
Zoe: PS.
Heather: Which is so exciting. I have one that I guess I can't, well no, I can talk about him. Yeah, I just can't talk about the whole situation.
Zoe: The specifics of it. Yeah, I'll talk about them all. Beware.
Heather: And I'll have a new one to talk about.
Zoe: Yes.
Heather: Oh my God, I'm so nervous.
Proud of you.
Zoe: Proud of you.
Heather: Thanks for listening to Girl, Undrunk. You can follow us on Instagram and TikTok @girlundrunkpodcast or send me an email at heather@girlundrunk.com. Before we go, thank you to our amazing producer, Ariane Michaud and support from her team at Consciously Produced. Martin Nunez Bonilla for the [01:09:00] graphics.
Ian Sit for setting up our sound, Daniel James for the music and final edits, and Chelsea Neilan for the transcript and show notes. This podcast would not be possible without you.
Hey listeners, if you're enjoying Girl, Undrunk please do us a favor like, subscribe, and most importantly, share this episode with someone you think might need it or just love it. Your support means everything and it helps keep these conversations going.
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