#07: Am I An Alcoholic?
Heather and Zoe confront the question: Am I an alcoholic? They unpack the subtle and not-so-subtle signs of alcohol dependence—from hiding bottles in purses to needing a drink just to go on a date—and how these moments felt "normal" until sobriety changed their perspective. They reflect on how alcohol quietly took control and how their paths to recovery began with asking the hard questions.
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Am I an Alcoholic? Transcript
Heather: [00:00:00] This podcast covers sensitive topics that may be difficult for some listeners. Please take care while listening.
Hey everyone. Welcome back to Girl Un Drunk. I'm Heather, your host, and somehow we're already on episode seven this week. Zoe and I are getting into the big, very scary question: Am I an alcoholic?
We talk through the signs, both the obvious ones and the ones that felt totally normal to us until we got sober. From hiding bottles in our purses to needing a drink just to go on a date. We're reflecting on all the ways alcohol was quietly taking over our lives, and how hard it can be to see that when you're in it.
We also talk about the impact addiction can have on our friends and families. The lying, the disappearing, the emotional chaos. It doesn't just hurt us. It hurts the people we love most. Sometimes our families knew sometimes they didn't. Either way, it can leave deep marks, confusion, guilt, grief. Those relationships can take time to heal even after we get sober.
A quick [00:01:00] heads up. This episode includes some talk about suicidal ideation. That was part of our story, and I just wanna say I'm so grateful to still be here, to be sitting across from Zoe laughing and telling the truth and doing this together. Recovery is possible. It's not easy, but it is so, so worth it.
Let's get into it. You're listening to Girl and Drunk.
Welcome listeners. Welcome back to the seventh episode of Girl Undrunk. I'm your host Heather.
Zoe: And I'm Zoe.
Heather: And we back, baby.
Zoe: We're back.
Heather: How, uh, how was your week?
Zoe: My week was good. I am getting really anxious and nervous to speak at my meeting on Saturday because I'm speaker-
Heather: Okay. That's this Saturday,
Zoe: at my meeting [00:02:00] on Saturday.
So I'm very nervous for that. I feel ready and I feel like time for me to be the speaker. It's just, I'm gonna be really nervous and anxious until Saturday's done. When Saturday's done, I'm gonna feel like a weight has lifted off me 'cause I know I can do it. It's just, I'm so nervous for it.
Heather: Of course. It's so scary. You're doing a performance and it's a vulnerable performance. It's wild. And you are doing this because your friend is getting her year chip or medallion and she gets to choose who speaks at the meeting.
Zoe: Yeah, exactly. And she chose me and I said, yes.
Heather: Do you know what you're gonna say?
Zoe: You are supposed to say what it was like before what happened and what it's like now. So basically my whole story. I'm just gonna make sure, like I try to talk slowly and don't forget anything that's like important about my whole story. 'Cause I'm gonna probably have at least 20 minutes to share
Heather: Holy shit.
Zoe: Like 20 to [00:03:00] 30 minutes.
Heather: That'll go by fast.
Zoe: I hope so.
Heather: Do you want me to come?
Zoe: No. Nah. I don't know. I'm like too nervous. I am probably just gonna talk, be looking at my sponsor the whole time. Because she told me that she'll sit front row and I can just talk to her. So I might just be talking to her the whole time to make me feel comfortable.
Heather: Do you think you're gonna cry?
Zoe: Who knows?
Heather: Do you cry?
Zoe: I do cry. I might cry. Like after it's over, I feel like I'll be too nervous when I'm up there. I might go blank and like do my own thing and not realize that everyone's there until after and then cry, you know? I don't know.
Heather: Oh my God.
Zoe: I don't know what's gonna happen.
Heather: It's gonna be amazing.
Zoe: I can't wait for it to be done. So that I won't be feeling like this anymore.
Heather: Totally. But this is good. And also I had a prof recently tell me. My first year back in school, he said, your body doesn't know the difference between nervousness and excitement. So if you're feeling nervous just like tell yourself like, no, [00:04:00] I'm excited. This is this excited feeling.
Zoe: I am excited for it. As well. 'cause I'm excited to share everything to my fellow addicts and alcoholics. And hopefully like someone can relate. It's just, I've been doing a lot of firsts recently. Like, this is a first for me.
The sharing will be a first for me. I guess I'm like in a relationship now, which is like a first for me.
Heather: Zoe has a boyfriend. We actually didn't discuss if we were gonna talk about that, but we won't get too much into it. But yeah, this is good. I mean, this is cool. And you're feeling your firsts?
Zoe: Yeah, which is scary and exciting.
Heather: Yeah, I, I kind of feel that way too. Even like, I've never been like a person who takes videos of anything on the street, but even the other day we went to dinner and we were making tiktoks for the podcast and I'm like, this is new and it's nerve wracking 'cause I'm on the street.
But it's exciting.
Zoe: And also I can do anything like that with you. [00:05:00] Like I could never do that by myself. No, but we're doing tiktoks together, being silly, goofy girls on the street. I don't care if anyone thinks we're annoying and lame walking by. I'm with my best friend.
Heather: I'll just wave them by.
Zoe: So fuck off.
Heather: I have like a baseline level of anxiety, but this was such a dark winter I feel like every winter.
Zoe: Well, I was saying with my friend last night actually that sometimes this in between weather makes me more depressed than the winter. Because the winter, at least we know what to expect. Like it's gonna be dark, it's gonna be cold.
This it's warm for a little bit. And then it tricks you.
Heather: It tricks you. And gives you a little bit of hope.
Zoe: It's instantly cold and you're like, what the fuck? It's almost worse in winter.
Heather: I know. How is your, how's your mental health?
Zoe: My mental health, I mean, it's good except for like I am anxious. And I think like after deciding, I'm gonna [00:06:00] be so proud of myself and I just have to keep telling myself that, that it's gonna be all worth it. It's just, for now, I'm super nervous. Super scary.
Heather: I, I guess my mental health too, I'm feeling a little bit self-critical and I'm trying to be in tune with my natural cycles. I like wear the aura ring and it like tracks my period and my menstruation and my energy and all that shit and I just, this week I've been so like, my body looks weird, I'm an idiot. Like, just things like that, I've been kind of extra critical and I'm like, hold on, what's going on here?
Like we don't need this. Like, let's look at our period tracker and see what's going on. 'Cause every month I'm a nightmare. And I'm freaking out and I'm like, should we just end this now? And then my period comes and I'm like, oh right. Right. This is a thing that happens to me every month and I cannot figure it out.
Zoe: It's good to blame it on your period. Totally. You know?
Heather: Totally.
Zoe: I think that we should just blame everything on our period.
Heather: It's just crazy how emotional I get and that's definitely been different since I got my IUD taken out. A year and a [00:07:00] half ago now I'm an emotional mess and my period's insane.
Zoza, do you wanna get into some sober news?
Zoe: I am ready for you.
Heather: Okay. So there's this influencer who is talking about, she actually asked at the end of the video for nobody to speak about it and make money off of this story. This is just for her to share. Now, I'm not gonna say her name, but if you, if you know, you know this makeup influencer, her husband has clearly been struggling with alcohol, maybe drugs or just alcohol for a while.
And she just, people were saying like, where is he? Where is he? Dah, dah, dah. And so she's come out and finally said like, he's gone to rehab.
Zoe: I think it was like the best video I've seen of someone talk about a person who's an alcoholic or an addict. I felt good about what she was saying.
Like it felt very real. I got teary-eyed watching it 'cause I'm like, fuck, that's what I put my parents through. That's what I put my friends through. It did make me cry a little bit.
Heather: It's it's pretty [00:08:00] intense. I mean to be able to talk about our addiction is one thing, but there is a whole other side to this.
All the collateral. And being married to an addict and someone who is in and out of addiction, relapsing, staying sober. It's gotta be so hard. I am so glad I didn't have a spouse.
Because that would've added so much more bullshit. Like, now I have to worry if you're gonna stay and be mad at me.
I was listening to her talk up about this, and I, I wanted so badly to just be like, oh my God, leave. Like, just leave. And, and I didn't feel that the whole way through the video, but some points I'm like, oh my God, you guys like just got married. How did you not see this before? How, you know what I mean?
Zoe: No, I think that like, she was saying that she knew what she was getting into. She knew that he was an alcoholic. She met him in a sober living. And I think she knew that this is what comes with it. [00:09:00]
And that's, she went through it and she is gonna be there when he's out of rehab and I think that if I marry an alcoholic addict, like yeah, I'm marrying you knowing that relapse is possible for you.
Same thing if someone marries me, they're marrying me, realizing that this is maybe not gonna be it forever. I could turn into a crazy person and hopefully I can get through it with you. If you think that you're marrying an alcoholic and he's gonna stay sober forever that's naive of you thinking that.
Heather: Okay. But I don't know that people know that. So I think that there is an idea that someone gets sober, they don't drink anymore, but they're fine, they don't drink anymore, and then something does happen. And that's so scary because the person who's never had an addiction seeing this person that they love in their addiction, you, you can say for better or for worse, but when it happens, it is scary.
Zoe: A hundred percent is scary. And I don't think-
Heather: I'm not saying either way, like you should leave them. It just was my first.
Zoe: Don't [00:10:00] think that you should stay with them forever, even if that addiction takes over. I think that if it was me personally, I would probably give it like a couple years. And if he can't figure it out, then I'm gonna have to leave him. But I wouldn't leave him just because he relapsed for like a year, you know? It's something that I would go into that relationship knowing, I guess, because I know because I am an alcoholic and I know that. I know that, for me at least, that's always an option that could unfortunately happen. But yeah, I guess for the regular person, if she never knew him as an alcoholic then yeah, it's, it would be really scary. But that is naive of you, of thinking that he's just gonna be sober forever.
Heather: It just needs to be a bigger conversation of like, I'm an addict. If I relapse, this is probably what it's gonna look like. Are you ready for that? Like, and you don't wanna say that because you-
Zoe: and they may have had that conversation.
Heather: Maybe. Well, for [00:11:00] them specifically, maybe. I thought she was amazing.
I thought she did a great job. Just like saying it straightforward, being like, this is a real thing that's happening. Mind you, she's been like on the internet doing her makeup and being beautiful and cool and funny and it's like all of this stuff is going on behind the scenes and like it's real. It happens all the time.
Zoe: And when she was saying that she had to kick him out, I think that was a very real thing. Like you can't enable someone, even if it's your husband forever, you can't let him live in the house with you when you aren't accepting what he's doing forever. So that was, that was really cool that she did that because like it is fine to think about yourself first.
Heather: That's exactly right. And I, it, it wasn't like a punishment. No. Like he had to get out because he's drinking. It's like, this is actually not good for my mental health and if I wanna help you in any way, I have to help me. Like, I have to be good on my own and you know, whether you're sober or not, like [00:12:00] your mental health does have to come first. I really do wish them the best and I hope he's getting the help that he needs. It seems as though he is so that's good. Scary though. It is scary. Like, you know, your life is going one way and then all of a sudden it's like, whoops.
Zoe: But that is what addiction is.
Heather: I know. It's so scary to think like that could happen. Like, I'm, I'm good now. I feel good, but like 10 years down the road, like it is possible to relapse. Like, it's crazy. I don't know.
Zoe: No. Any day, you know, this is like, just because I'm sober today doesn't mean I'm sober tomorrow.
Heather: I know. But I will be
Zoe: God willing.
Heather: Um. White Lotus
Zoe: White Lotie.
Heather: You're watching it.
Zoe: White Lotie.
Heather: It's so good. It's so, first of all, they do such a good casting job. It's such a good show.
Zoe: The Pill Popper, what's her name?
Heather: What is her name? The mom.
Zoe: The mom.
Heather: When she's like sitting on the bed at the end of the episode and it's like, "I'm just not built for an uncomfortable life" or whatever. Whenever she says that, I'm like, oh fuck. [00:13:00] It's about to get so bad. And I, I'm like, yeah, you just gotta keep those pills popping babe.
Zoe: Because, but she's out. And it's funny because she ran out of her pills. Like what, two episodes ago? And she hasn't been taking her pills. She's having no withdrawals. No nothing. It's just like, fine.
Heather: I know. I wonder if she's just supplementing so much with like wine and stuff. But even still,
Zoe: I think it just is showing that she never really needed them in the first place.
Heather: Maybe
Zoe: You know, I think she was just using it as a comfort thing.
Heather: And you like jump on board if everyone else is like popping a Xanax, you might as well. And also if you pop one Xanax, you're gonna eventually just pop two and then be a Xanax mom. But I do really like her.
Zoe: I love her.
Heather: Okay, let's talk about the conversation between the son and the dad when the dad is like already on his drugs and he comes out and the son is like, what is going on? And he's like, I had a few drinks. He's like, it's not about the drinks. What's wrong with you? Because their business is like, what did he do? Did he launder a bunch of money?
Zoe: Something like that. He did [00:14:00] something illegal. And now he's gonna go to jail for it and lose all his money.
Heather: What a nightmare. That is actually one of my nightmares.
Zoe: That is really scary.
Heather: It is terrifying. I don't have that kind of money, but I just worry that the IRS is coming for me, but stay away.
But the Schwarzenegger the kid, he's, "he's like my life and my career is tethered to yours," talking to his dad, "I don't have anything else. If this goes away, I don't have hobbies, I don't have interests. I'm not good at anything." And I was like, did I write this? Because that's the shit that I went through with dance. And like, if I don't have this, I don't have anything. So this better fucking workout. And that's like the rhetoric I had my whole life. Interesting. And so when it did go away, I was like, this is what I didn't wanna happen. This is what I was trying to avoid my whole fucking life. And when he was saying that, I was like, oh, oh my God, he is gonna turn to alcohol.
He's going to get so fucked up. Like his mom is like, [00:15:00] like an addict, assumingly. And I'm like, this kid has nothing. This is so dangerous. This is all the boys that I grew up with who thought they were going to the NHL and didn't go to the NHL and then did a bunch of cocaine.
Zoe: I don't think I had that ever. I don't think I had anything that like I cared about that much besides booze.
Heather: Well, and that's helpful. If I had alcohol growing up, I probably wouldn't have been so stressed. Well, I don't know.
Zoe: But then you would end up been so successful with dance because-
Heather: Yeah, that's true.
Zoe: I was very successful with figure skating until the booze came around, and then I chose the booze over skating.
Heather: Oh, really? That was like an act of choice?
Zoe: Well, obviously I wasn't like dumb thinking that the booze was helping my skating.
Heather: No.
Zoe: So I was like, I don't care anymore about skating. I'm gonna just drink.
Heather: Goggins has a conversation with that director.
Zoe: So in the one episode, he's sober and he talks about his, like [00:16:00] sexual escapades.
Heather: He also says when he's, he's talking about being sober, and he was like, A million drinks would never be satisfying. And I'm like, oh, yeah, this is like a full AA thing. The like, do you guys say this? Like one, one is too many and a thousand is never enough.
Zoe: I don't think that's like a saying that we say a lot, but
Heather: Okay. Then maybe that was just like from my rehab or whatever, but I was like, yes, first of all, this person is an addict right off the bat. And then he goes on to talk about his story and it's just like progressively getting more crazy.
And then he starts talking about wanting to be one of the Asian girls that he was fucking and he wanted to be fucked like that. And then he is getting fucked like that and he is getting fucked like that. And I just was like, this story just feels so real.
Zoe: Like I, it feel, it felt very real to me.
Heather: Right? It, to me, it didn't feel like, 'cause at first I'm listening to it, I'm like, oh, maybe he's gay. And then I was like. This isn't a [00:17:00] sexuality exploration. That's not what this feels like.
Zoe: It's, it's just like, when is it enough?
Heather: It feels like you're drinking, you're doing drugs, you're fucking, you're, you're getting yourself into precarious situations and it's never satisfying enough.
And so you have to be fucked like an Asian girl to feel something 'cause you've already desensitized yourself. This is how I feel about the Diddy situation. When people are like, oh my God, they have this many bottles of baby oil and they were freak offs and they were having sex with donkeys and all this shit.
I'm like, yeah, this is disgusting. This is horrendous. It's not surprising to me because if you have so much money, so much power, you can fuck whoever you want. Well, that 20-year-old girl isn't super interesting to me because I fucked every single person like her.
Zoe: Exactly.
Heather: And so now I need to go to like my, my producing partners or children or animals 'cause you're just pushing the fucking limit. It's like, get sober, relax.
Zoe: Did P Diddy have a [00:18:00] drug problem?
Heather: I don't know if P Diddy is an addict, but he does a fuck ton of drugs. Like they were doing like massive amounts of cocaine.
Zoe: I didn't know if he was doing it or if he was just giving it to everybody.
Heather: No, I'm sure he was doing it.
I think to stay up for that long and to fuck like that you have to be doing something. Cocaine makes you really horny. I just don't know if you can-
Zoe: I could never like, whenever I was hooking up with guys and they were on coke, it would always be a mission to get that thing up. Let's just say that.
Heather: I imagine it was like I imagine for all of them,
Zoe: But then they just like take Viagra, I guess. And then it's fine.
Heather: Oh my god. They're disgusting.
But that's just how I feel. I'm like, you get to this point in your life, in your drug use and your alcoholism, where you're just like, I, you know, I have friends who are like, oh like I had sex workers come to the house when my wife was away, or when my wife was at dinner with her friends. Men have said this to my face. You can't really control what you do when you're on cocaine. You're [00:19:00] just super fucking horny.
Zoe: Yeah, no, I believe it. My boyfriends would get super fucking horny on coke and then not get hard, and I'm like, well then what do you want?
Heather: This is so useless. Like what is the point?
Zoe: When I was listening to him doing that speech about his sex life at first I was like wow, this is weird. And then I was like, oh, I love this and no one's gonna understand this, but I understand this 'cause I am an alcoholic. And I didn't do everything like that but like I, my sex definitely got weirder throughout my alcoholism.
Heather: That's interesting. And you liked it?
Zoe: Yeah.
Heather: You wanted to be pushing the limits?
Zoe: Yes.
Heather: I didn't really want to be, I definitely did because I was trying to like keep men happy or like be useful but there were definitely some things that I did because I was wasted that I'm like, oh God. Like that's not for me.
Zoe: Thinking back on it now, no, I wouldn't do half the things I did, but-
Heather: But at the time.
Zoe: At the time [00:20:00] then that's what I wanted. A hundred percent.
Heather: And it, it doesn't feel crazy at the time. I mean it's like doing drugs in general. Some people look at drugs and they're like, huh, I would never, that's terrifying. And then some people like us are like, it's fine.
He said this thing too, where he is like, I was trying to fuck my way to happiness. And I was like, yeah, I know. That's what you're trying to do. You really-
Zoe: That's so relatable.
Heather: Yes. And in a weird way, and I can't fully even figure out how that relates to me, but I'm like, you are doing a thing that probably doesn't feel good anymore. Right? Like, you fucked so many people. It's probably not doing what you think it's doing, it doesn't make you feel better. And that's the same with like drugs and alcohol. It's like, you know, you're gonna wake up with a hangover and it's like, I know. But the thing, I can't stop doing the thing because it's for a reason.
And it's for happiness. It's too dissociate.
Zoe: It's, it's for like that two minutes of happiness. That's what we're chasing. That two minutes of happiness after the first sip.
Heather: You're not gonna fuck your way to [00:21:00] happiness.
Zoe: I mean, you can try.
Heather: You could try.
Zoe: And then the next episode he gets drunk.
Heather: Well, and, and Goggins is like, aren't you sober? And he's like, ah, it's Bangkok one night. I'm like, mm. Anything I know about Bangkok from the movie, The Hangover is that one drink is going to get you-
Zoe: Well, that was an excuse. That's what we would say too. That's what we would say too.
Heather: And I mean, the thing about traveling and being in a place where like everything is centered around alcohol, it probably does make you feel like, I can do this. It's fine. It's not even really my real life.
Zoe: So he ordered a drink because he had to fake being a director. I could see him like getting anxious about lying and it comes back to the lying. If you are starting to lie and not telling the truth. You could tell he was anxious and that's when he ordered the drink because he couldn't handle the lying. The pressure that [00:22:00] it took from him.
Heather: And it's the same with the dad, right? He's taking all the lorazepam. It's like he's doing all these lies. And I'm sure they started with micro lying and like his wife has never understood what's happening in his business. To me that feels very much like she's over here. He runs the money. She has nothing to do with his finances. And that is terrifying. Ladies-
Zoe: Don't do that.
Heather: You gotta take a business class. You gotta know where your money is going.
Zoe: Yes.
Heather: But she's gonna be fucked when this whole thing comes crashing down. But he's doing the same thing. He's lying and he's taking drugs to mask how stressed out he is. If you had just been open and honest from the get go with your family about probably everything-
Zoe: But you can see the difference of drug, right? Like the Lorazepam, he's just like mellowing out, not doing anything. Yeah, right.
Heather: He just wants to dissociate.
Zoe: He wants to dissociate. And then with the alcohol, he's loud. He's obnoxious. Yeah, he's dangerous.
Heather: It is dangerous. I'll be watching it tomorrow because I'm asleep by nine [00:23:00] o'clock. I'm actually watching it actually recently, I've been falling asleep at like 11 and I'm-
Zoe: That is so good for you.
Heather: No, I don't like it because I like-
Zoe: Are you still phoning him at 7:00 AM?
Heather: Okay, so this is another little mental health check.
I have a sober companion who I deeply, deeply care for and we, we speak every single day, twice a day, sometimes more than that. He calls me every single morning at 6:00 AM and then every day at like 3:30. That's how I start my day. He calls me- we went to rehab together. He calls me, we chat, whether it's about sober stuff or not, it sets up my day as like a sober day.
We've been doing this for two years. Like we really haven't missed a day and recently he's been going through some personal stuff where he just was like, I need to take a break from our friendship for a little bit and like figure some stuff out on my own. And that's fine, I get it. But I've really, really come to expect and appreciate my morning phone calls, [00:24:00] because again, my whole life is sober.
Everything I do is to be sober. And I like it like that. And it's like, I love my sober calls in the morning. We're both awake at 6:00 AM. Neither of us are hungover. We're just talking about the day. It's only been like four days and I'm like, Ugh, I miss my sober friend. Like, it's so nice.
Zoe: That's interesting because I feel like I had this transition happen to me when I was what like three months sober after my rehab guy relapsed. And then obviously I stopped talking to him and I felt weird too, because I didn't have my sober companion anymore. But I don't know, you get over it.
It's like, it almost feels better after to be like, oh, I can do this on my own. I don't need him to, I don't make me sober.
Heather: And definitely the first year, maybe even the year and a half of my sobriety, I needed it.
Zoe: You needed him.
Heather: I really did.
Zoe: I feel the same way about my guy. Like I needed him in that first pivotal time to transition from rehab to real life. And [00:25:00] I respect everything that he taught me, and I'm so thankful for him but I also realize it it couldn't keep happening.
Heather: Yeah
Zoe: That's not inevitable. You need to do it for yourself.
Heather: Well, and that's true too, because like he could, he's fine, but like what if that person died? That's my sober companion. And that does happen in recovery.
Zoe: Your sober companion has to be yourself. Like you have to be the one that self sober.
Heather: For sure. But I like it. I like those morning phone calls and I'm just like, it's like a missing part of me now and I'm like, oh, come back.
Zoe: Maybe this is for the best though. Low key.
Heather: It probably is. I think we've needed some like space. It's been pretty codependent,
Zoe: But I think calling each other every day, Heather is so codependent and I didn't wanna say that, but
Heather: No, no, it, it is. But I also know that I don't need him. I just like it. I had this conversation with my mom. A few days ago, and she had listened to one of the podcasts and she was like, man, it's hard for me to listen to sometimes 'cause [00:26:00] just like the stuff that you went through. And then she was talking about like, me walking home from work with wine and that's not crazy to me, but it is crazy to her. Like so much stuff that we say, I'm like, that's normal. And she, she was like, how did I not see it? All this stuff you were going through.
She's like, I knew you were drinking a lot, but I didn't know how bad it was and she wasn't doing this, but I felt like, oh, I feel bad. I feel bad that she feels bad that she didn't see it. But I was never gonna let her see it. We're not gonna let anybody see how bad it is.
Zoe: You don't wanna put it on someone else when you're in it.
Heather: Did you ever have anyone that was like, after you left rehab or we're going to rehab, did you have people being like, oh, I did not know.
Zoe: Everyone knew in my life that I was an alcoholic.
Heather: Okay. Were you hiding it at all? Like were there times where you were hiding your alcohol?
Zoe: Yeah, I was definitely hiding it still, even though people knew I wanted to present that I was getting better, but
Heather: Oh, you did? Oh. [00:27:00] Okay. 'cause you like-
Zoe: Like I would try to hide it until like I was noticeably drunk. Right. You know? I know. It's so hard to do.
Heather: It's so hard to do. That is one of the things that I think when we get sober and you do a lot of apologizing. At some point I'm like, I can't feel guilty for this anymore. Like, you didn't see it. My mom didn't see it. She feels bad because I'm her daughter, but I'm like,
Zoe: But that's like not up to you to fix that.
Heather: No, it's not. You know, but it just feels like there's so much apologizing I need to do around my addiction and now that the podcast is out and I'm so open about things, I forget that like other people have gone through stuff too with me and I'm like, mom, no, it's fine. My life was about hiding my alcoholism from you because if you knew you would take it and you can't take it from me, you know? I would be like wasted at their house, like in the middle of the day and they were just like, Jesus fucking Christ. What are we gonna do?
The lying. The lying and the lying. And then it just explodes [00:28:00] eventually and you can't hide it. And you're throwing up cran-raz vodka all over your mom's carpet.
Zoe: Oh, yikes.
Heather: I know.
Zoe: And then do you have to clean it up?
Heather: Yeah, of course. I was gonna ask you, what did you do to keep people from finding out your addiction was so bad?
Were there things that you would do?
Zoe: I mean, like, yeah, I would try to hide it. Like I would have bottles in my purse and after a certain point, I couldn't hide it anymore.
Heather: Bottles in your purse when?
Zoe: I don't know, like on a day to day.
Heather: Okay. With like the mini bottles? Okay. So yours were always packing.
Zoe: I was always packed and I would drink everything, so it didn't matter to me what I was drinking. It just in certain situations, it mattered how small the bottle was and if it was gonna get me drunk fast enough.
Heather: I don't know why I didn't do that. I think I just liked the slow burn of getting fucked up on my couch. I don't know.
Zoe: Well, I did keep going out, like I was out and about all the time. So I had to keep it on me.
Heather: That's true.[00:29:00]
Now that we're seven episodes in, it's obviously not a medical list, but I do wanna kind of go over the things that make you an alcoholic or make me an alcoholic, make you an alcoholic. And of course everyone's addiction is different, but these are like the things that probably doctors don't tell you to look for.
And then also what your family and friends should be looking out for. Writing that down, being like, what should other people look for? I feel like such a fucking snitch.
Like when I, when my friend relapsed and I went to her house and I found her bottles in the sneakiest fucking places, there was a part of me that like didn't wanna tell her husband where those bottles were. Because I felt like I was betraying her. I did. I was like, I get it. We both have this disease. I know what you need right now and it's your alcohol. So I like obviously had to tell him. But I do feel like a narc. I'm like, I'm sorry I'm about to out you.
Zoe: I know. [00:30:00] But I think that she would understand after it's for the bus. And she could always find other spots, you know.
Heather: Oh she's a real sneaky weasel that one.
Zoe: We're all sneaky weasels.
Heather: True.
Zoe: If you rat me out on one spot, I'm gonna just find another spot.
Heather: She's actually, the reason I say sneaky weasel.
Zoe: Oh, is she?
Heather: 'Cause when we were in rehab. That's what she would say. 'cause her husband would call her a sneaky weasel because she would like climb out the bathroom window and like army crawl around her house to avoid the cameras, to like get to the alcohol.
Zoe: I love that.
Heather: I know.
Zoe: Good for her.
Heather: I say addicts are not lazy people. They are the hardest working hustlers in the world. There are literally always figuring out how to survive.
Zoe: Am I An Alcoholic 101? With Heather and Zoe.
Heather: With Heather and Zoe. And if you have all any of these, you're an alcoholic and you should put your pen down and go to rehab.
Zoe: And we're diagnosing you right now.
Heather: Number one.
Zoe: Okay. Number one let's go on a list.
Heather: Am I an alcoholic: quantity and time spent drinking. I think that that is obviously a [00:31:00] dead giveaway for yourself.
Zoe: I think when you start drinking alone is an iffy battle because even if you're drinking alone, having like one glass of wine to celebrate the end of the day it's iffy. 'Cause I feel it can turn into multiple real quick or you can just be relying on that and thinking about that glass of wine at the end of the day for the whole day. And everything you're doing is for that.
Heather: Yes.
Zoe: You shouldn't be living your life for a glass of wine for something that's going to ease your pain temporarily.
Heather: That's actually a great point, Zoza 'cause I think that's how I started drinking. It was like the art thing to do at the end of the day. We danced all day. We came home, we got drunk, or they had wine. And then even when I started drinking on my own, I was like, this is an art thing to do.
Zoe: It's just gonna be one. It's not gonna be a problem until one day you wake up and you're like, oh wait. It is a problem.
Heather: But you're right, you're right. When you say that, like you're, even if you're [00:32:00] having one glass of wine at the end of the day, it's like, yeah, but what have you been thinking about all day?
Zoe: Yeah, exactly. And that's the point. If you're thinking about it all day then you have the problem. If you're not thinking about it all day and you just happen to have a glass of wine every day, then I think you're fine.
Heather: I do too. And I think it also brings up your rising tolerance.
Zoe: And that, and that's why having one a day can quickly lead to two to five a day.
Heather: 'Cause you always hear people too, saying like, oh my God, when I started drinking like this, like vodka would make me throw up. Or like now I have like three glasses of wine and I don't get drunk. Or I can drink one and drive home. Like, there's always more that you can do. Or like you'll, again, you'll push your limits even in weird ways.
Do you think that people have an awareness of their relationship with alcohol on average?
Zoe: I don't think so. And I think that if you're not an alcoholic and you're listening to this, like maybe that's just what you're gonna get out of it. You're gonna be able to look at your own drinking and recognize the patterns that you see and if they're healthy or [00:33:00] not.
Because I think that a lot of people just go to their day-to-day lives, not thinking their relationship with alcohol and it can be really unhealthy and sometimes people don't even know it.
Heather: I think that's a big thing. Like reflecting, we have to reflect because we're sober. But you don't have to do that until you get sick or something happens.
Zoe: If you can reflect now and you're not an alcoholic, then that's gonna be easier for you in the future and you can continue to drink.
Heather: But when the whole world and media tells you to go home at the end of the day and have a glass of wine and put your feet up and relax, it's like I'm now supposed to switch my mentality to be like, no, that's actually problematic.
That's a bad message.
Zoe: It is problematic and it is a bad message. Okay. Gimme another.
Heather: Emotional drinking. This goes back. A lot of these like connect to each other, but being reflective about your drinking. When are you drinking? Why are you drinking? If you're often drinking because you're sad. If you're often sad because of your drinking.
If you're often depressed, [00:34:00] it is a cycle. Alcohol is a depressant. It's a very serious depressant. And when you feel, like when you're drinking, it's like validating your feelings. You wanna drink more. So I would just urge people to really think about when and why. And if you're in a situation where you are sad or anxious or nervous and you're like, I wanna drink-
Zoe: Sit with those feelings instead.
Heather: Yeah. For a sec. Maybe push yourself, try an hour. Be like, if in an hour from now I still really need a drink- 'cause I bet you, I bet you a lot of times you're drinking because you think you're supposed to, or you think you have to, or it's the only thing you have, or it's the only thing you've been thinking about.
When you get cravings and you pick up another drink, like a non-alcoholic drink, sometimes it really helps. You just need to be doing the ritual of it.
Zoe: Exactly. And it is just a fleeting thought too. If you think of it as a fleeting thought, then it will go away. If you marinate on it, it's gonna stick.[00:35:00]
Heather: I mean, it's fleeting for me now, 'cause I'm two years sober. It definitely wouldn't have been fleeting for me back then. But I was already way too far in it. I never reflected on drinking before, so I didn't know.
Zoe: And at that point in my time, I was just accepting that I was an alcoholic and I was gonna die. So it didn't really matter for me to be reflective.
Heather: That's really what you were thinking? You were like, I, this will kill me one day?
Zoe: Yeah.
Heather: Really? How did you think you were gonna die?
Zoe: Just like wake up one morning, dead.
Heather: Wake up dead?
Zoe: Waking up, dead in my puke.
Heather: What a phenomenon. Just wake up and look at yourself.
You're dead.
Zoe: No, literally I thought that that would happen. I, my ghost would be like, oh shit, you did it. Even now I wake up sometimes and I'm like, oh, wait, am I alive? Like I, I, I really do sometimes think that this is all a dream and I did die three years ago.
Heather: Oh my God. That is so scary Zoe.
Zoe: Yeah, I know that.
Heather: But that's how I feel when I think that I'm worried that I'm insane, I'm in an [00:36:00] institu. Dragging around a, a tissue box. And I think it's my dog, Nike, and I'm talking to you having a podcast, but you're just a social worker. Like that's my fear.
Zoe: I a hundred percent.
Heather: This is a big one everybody. Thinking about your next drink before you're done, your first one. For me, that's huge. That was like, I couldn't be drinking a glass of wine if I knew that there wasn't any more alcohol in the fridge. Can't do it. I need there to be an abundance of alcohol around me. Did you have that panic?
Did you get the one drink panic where you're like, oh my God, where's my next one?
Zoe: Even when like I was at a bar and I was done, my first one, I would be so anxious that the server wasn't coming around instantly. You know?
Heather: Yes.
Zoe: Or if it was taking forever for them to notice me at the bar, like it was almost like we remember that video we were talking about the TikTok, or like I was shaking until I got my next drink and [00:37:00] that's why I did like carrying around my own booze because I could drink whenever I wanted to.
Heather: Well, it makes you feel safer because you don't have to wait on anybody else.
Zoe: Exactly.
Heather: Also, that would happen at restaurants. I was worried that they would cut me off. Or like when I was flying, think about flying is they like really liquor you up. But I was always worried that the flight attendants were gonna come around and be like, that's plenty dear.
Zoe: No, I almost didn't make it to Australia. They almost didn't let me on the flight.
Heather: Oh my.
Zoe: So I was so drunk.
Guest: Oh my god. Okay. Tell that story.
Zoe: So I was drinking at the airport in Toronto and I was going on a flight to Vancouver and then from Vancouver I was gonna go to Australia by the time I got to Vancouver, ooh, I was. Wasted. I probably had a couple drinks before I left for the airport. I probably had a few drinks at the airport. I actually couldn't even pay my bill at the airport restaurant.
Heather: Oh my God.
Zoe: Because none of my cards were working. I was such a drunk mess.
Heather: And you were on your way to Australia? And your cards weren't working.
Zoe: And my cards weren't working.
Heather: Oh my God. [00:38:00]
Zoe: And some random guy paid for my bill. It was like $90 of booze.
Heather: Nice.
Zoe: And thank God for that man.
Heather: Did you ask someone to pay?
Zoe: I was literally having a full mental breakdown in that restaurant.
Heather: Oh my God.
Zoe: And that guy just saved my life. Horrible. Horrible. And then I go on the plane, I'm like chatting with this fucking guy sitting beside me being an obnoxious freak. I keep drinking on the flight with him.
Heather: He was drinking?
Zoe: I think so. Okay. I must have passed out. Knocked out. Woke up in Vancouver and they were like, you need to sober up, or You're not allowed on the next flight.
Like, we're bringing you to the gate and you're not allowed to drink anymore. You don't agree to this, then you're kicked off.
Heather: Did something happen on the plane?
Zoe: I don't know. Maybe.
Heather: Okay.
Zoe: Maybe.
Heather: Because were you, did you wake up in your chair and they were saying that?
Zoe: Yeah.
Heather: Holy fuck.
Zoe: I don't think I did anything crazy. I think I was just a noticeable drunk mess. They had to like walk me to the gate and I had to promise them that [00:39:00] I wasn't gonna drink anymore. And then on the flight from Vancouver to Australia, I literally slept the whole entire time.
Heather: Really? And you didn't drink on that plane?
Zoe: It's like 11 hours. No, I couldn't, 'cause I was not allowed and I was asleep the whole time.
Heather: Yeah, but did the new flight attendants know you couldn't
Zoe: No. They spoke to the new flight attendants. No, it was very serious.
Heather: Oh my God. That's so crazy, Zoe.
Zoe: I know.
Heather: Whoa. I think to go along with this for other people on the outside, if you notice that your friends or family members can't do something or go somewhere without a drink, like can't go to dinner. That's a hard one 'cause a lot of people, but no, no, actually it's normal to go to dinner without a drink, by the way. That's something new that I've learned. But not everybody drinks at dinner.
Zoe: But you can also like test them to like take them out for brunch and see if they'll still want a mimosa then. You know?
Heather: But testing of it all. I always think of Kristen Doute from Vanderpump Rules. If you watch the seasons back, it makes my heart beat really fast because it gives me that anxious, like internal clock is moving. Anytime she goes to someone's [00:40:00] house, she's like, are we drinking? Or she'll like wait for someone to ask if, if we're drinking and she'll be the first one to stand up.
Like you can see it in her body. Not even in her eyes. Just her body. She like needs to be drinking. And if like someone says something about not drinking or feeling too hungover or like, oh, I have to do something today, I can't drink. You can see her be like, oh fuck. Like how am I gonna, 'cause that would've been me if we went to brunch and you guys were like, I'm not drinking I'd be like, so I'll be drinking in the bathroom with a stranger? Like, or I'll be at the bar like, I don't know.
Zoe: I think I would just still like order mimosa and don't care if they judge me or not.
Heather: The next one is, are you constantly telling yourself to cut back?
Zoe: Yes.
Heather: For me, I tried to quit every single morning and was drinking by 8:00 AM.
Zoe: I don't think I had ever wanted to quit, quit. I would always just be like, Hey, I need to be sober for today to like apologize to everybody and then I can be drunk tomorrow.
Heather: So many excuses. So many like-
Zoe: Or [00:41:00] like, it's gonna be different next time I drink. I'm not gonna drink like that ever again.
Heather: Did you believe yourself?
Zoe: No.
Heather: No. I sometimes I really, no, because even when I was in New York with my ex and he had kind of, well, no, he didn't think I had slowed down by that point, but he was like telling me to quit, and I was looking at him in the eyes earnestly being like, I'm so sorry. I, I'm so sorry for what I did. But I knew I was like, I'm not gonna stop. Like, I'm not gonna fucking stop. He is crying right now telling me to stop drinking. And I am looking at him being like, I'm so sorry that this is happening to you but I am going downstairs after this conversation to pretend to work on real estate and I'm going to get a full bottle of wine.
Zoe: No, I feel, I feel that. When I was still in school at uni, at Ryerson I definitely was trying more to stop drinking the way that I was. I [00:42:00] was trying to kind of like do the harm reduction model.
Heather: And what did that mean? Did that mean like, were at that point, were you drinking during the day?
Zoe: Well, yeah, and I was like going to therapy and I was going to CAMH and I was trying to manage my drinking.
Heather: What were you doing at CAMH?
Zoe: Like seeing psychologists or whatever they do.
Heather: Okay. Were you in group classes or anything there?
Zoe: No, I just did individual. I only did it for like maybe a few months and like I saw a therapist at school, my friend got me a therapist. I was trying to control my drinking at that point. And then I think when Covid happened, I kind of embraced it more to be like, I tried for a couple years to slow back.
It didn't work. Let's go all in on this.
Heather: And this is such an interesting conversation because at CAMH were they kind of modeling a harm reduction?
Zoe: I think they were. I never remember being like, I'm gonna be try to be sober. It was always like, I'm gonna try to control my drinking.
Heather: See, and this is what I find so interesting. You're a person [00:43:00] who is like, I'm fully an alcoholic. I wanna control my, or maybe not at that point, but like-
Zoe: I don't think I could. I think I was lying to the therapist at CAMH.
Heather: Sure.
Zoe: I don't know what I was saying, but they should have been able to tell like, yo, you're an alcoholic. You need to stop.
Heather: But I don't think that that is what people wanna say. People are never gonna force you to be sober. If they're pushing a harm reduction model that makes sense to me for some people. But what's funny is that you're sitting here saying, I'm fully an alcoholic. I couldn't control my drinking, but I was trying to control my drinking.
So that makes me feel like someone would set you up for a harm reduction model, even though you can't do that.
Zoe: But maybe I was telling them, yo, I can't live without this. You know? I don't wanna be sober. I wanna control it. So maybe that's when they were like, okay, let's try to do it.
Heather: Do you think that there was any possible way of you controlling your alcohol?
Zoe: No.
Heather: Okay.
Zoe: If there was, I would've figured it out because-
Heather: Fuck, yeah.
Zoe: I don't wanna give it [00:44:00] up.
Heather: No.
Zoe: That was the last thing I wanted to do.
Heather: I really loved that.
Zoe: Trust me, I tried so hard to control my drinking.
Heather: And what would happen?
Zoe: I would. Control it for a few days. And then I would not.
Heather: Would you still be drinking those few days?
Zoe: Yeah.
Heather: Just less.
Zoe: I'd be like, okay, I did, I only drank six beers today. I'm great. I can do it. Next day I would just have like a couple shots, one bottle of wine. It's fine. And then the next day I would go all out and get hammered and wake up in the middle of the street.
Heather: You were also in a difficult situation for your addiction because you were at school and you had so many friends and you were active and you were out doing stuff. Whereas like I was at home. I mean, there was a point where I was at work, but I was at home so much.
So the cutting back didn't really have to happen 'cause I didn't have to do it for somebody else or so that other people would know I was cutting back. So the pressure on you is much higher 'cause everyone was watching you.
Zoe: And like I said, I wasn't that great at [00:45:00] hiding it.
Heather: Do you need alcohol to go out? That's a huge one.
Zoe: I don't think I ever went out without drinking.
Heather: No. I was like, if I'm going on a date, if I'm going to get my nails done, if I'm getting a massage, that's funny 'cause if you drink and then you get a massage and that releases all that lactic acid into your body, you feel fucking nuts.
That was not great.
Zoe: I wanna do that.
Heather: You know? It doesn't actually feel good. It kind of feels like you're waking up from a nap and you're hungover.
Zoe: Oh.
Heather: But whatever. I didn't have a choice. I had to be drunk all the time. I think getting into the habit of like pre-drinking that's another thing. That is, it's like set up for us. It's like you don't have to feel nervous before you go out because we're pre-drinking. That's fun. We're gonna go meet a guy or we're gonna go to a club. The pre-drinking of it all is like a high school thing and it's not meant to be brought over for your like pre going out.
Zoe: You're not supposed to be pre-ing before a date. You're not supposed to be pree-ing before you're meeting up with your friends to drink. Why do you need to be drunk to go to the [00:46:00] function?
Heather: You really don't need to be. And if you are, you have to look at yourself 'cause it's bad.
And sometimes I didn't think that things I was doing were bad. Like showing up to a dinner already drunk. I'm like, well, we're gonna be drinking. That was like fine to me. And now I'm like, oh my God. Imagine if my sister just showed up, like I would show up to her house. Wasted holding a bottle of wine. Like that's insane behavior.
Zoe: Oh my god. A boy that I had over like a year ago now he showed up to my house, wasted with a bottle of liquor, fully knowing I'm sober.
Heather: He knew that?
Zoe: Yeah. Insanity, eh?
Heather: It is. I don't really know what that is.
Zoe: Well, he's an addict.
Heather: I know, but that's a person who like doesn't feel the need to hide it.
Zoe: No, I think you were trying to maybe hide it more than I was. I think I was more like, okay, it's fine. I'm an addict. I admit it to people. And so I would show up to places with shit more openly 'cause I was, I was [00:47:00] accepted of it more than I feel like maybe you were.
Heather: I was just so ashamed of it all the time.
I was like sitting in my house doing nothing, watching the world go by. Getting fat and I was like, this is the worst thing that could ever be happening to me and I can't stop it. I didn't have friends. I, I wasn't, it wasn't like my life was still going on. And, you know, it wasn't, it was at a complete halt.
So, like, the shame I had towards that and being like, I just, I was a dancer. I'm gonna always go back to that. But I was a dancer my whole life. Super fucking active. Always on the move. And now I'm sitting here doing nothing. And I don't know what I'm ever gonna do. And that's scary.
So fucking scary. And I, that's why I had to drink 'cause I was like, if I sit here and think about it, I'm gonna cry and I'm going to kill myself. So I'll just drink and I'll let alcohol do that for me.
Zoe: Did you ever think about killing yourself?
Heather: Yeah all the time.
Zoe: How would you do it? [00:48:00]
Heather: Probably pills. Or I would, I just didn't know how. I, I feel like when you actually-
Zoe: Were you scared to actually do it?
Heather: Terrified. Absolutely terrified but sometimes I was more terrified to be alive.
I just couldn't have my sister walk into my house with her spar key and see me dead. I couldn't, I could not do that.
But I never really wanted to die. That's why I was drinking. I like wanted to just dissociate. Like, I wanna be here. I just don't wanna be here in the way that I'm doing it now. And I don't know another way I don't know how to get out of it.
Another one on the list, I would say is what we've already talked about, but lying about your drinking.
Zoe: Yes.
Heather: And this can start in micro ways, like, have you already had a drink? No. Do you want a drink?
Zoe: If everyone's drinking sure.
Heather: The lying about your drinking, the lying, how much you've had, if you're drinking when you go home after, I don't know, little things. I remember there were like shots on a counter and I had had three and there was like [00:49:00] one for everyone and someone was like, wait, did we pour enough?
I was like, oh, I, I guess not. Ah. I'm like, well, yeah, you're just lying about it.
Zoe: That reminded me. I would do this all the time, but if I saw drinks that were not like fully drank, went at bars, at restaurants-
Heather: Oh my God.
Zoe: I would drink them.
Heather: Oh, that's so dangerous.
Zoe: Yeah, I would do that all the time.
Heather: Have you been roof feeded?
Zoe: No, I don't think so.
Heather: Wow.
Zoe: But who knows? I could have been.
Heather: I've been roofed twice.
Zoe: Whoa.
Heather: The first time with my friend Jackie, we were in Manhattan in SoHo and then in the meat packing district with my friend.
Zoe: So what happened? You just like got really fucked and you had to go home? Or what did they take it? Like what did they do?
Heather: At that time, when I was living in New York, I think that was my first year there. So I wasn't drinking that much. Like I was drinking.
Zoe: So you noticed that you were, oh, roofied.
Heather: Zoe this is not even being drunk at all. This is like, Jackie and I both had like one or two glasses of wine each over the span of like three hours.
We were just chatting [00:50:00] and then our bartender gave us a shot.
And it looked like one of those like blue, white, and red popsicles and it was so good. And then Jackie was like, wait can you make a drink like that? Like an actual drink. And he was like, yeah and mind you, that's only like we've had two glasses of wine, a shot.
That's three drinks in the span of three hours. That's nothing. And then we had a drink and then everything got crazy.
Zoe: So you think the bartender did it?
Heather: A thousand percent. I was fucked up as if I had had a bottle of absinthe and I was hallucinating. And I was moving like, you know when you're in a dream and you can't run, you can't move quickly? I was moving like that.
Zoe: Why did this bartender wanna drug you guys?
Heather: I don't know because I asked him at one point, it was probably like 8:00 PM and I was like, what time do you get off work? This was before we were drunk. And he said, 2:00 AM. And I said, oh, that's way too late.
Then we got roofied. And I made it home. Jackie put me in an Uber and I [00:51:00] was asleep in the Uber and he woke me up and we got home and I walked up five flights of stairs and woke up in my boots. I do not remember any of that. Then the second time was at this bar called Drunken Monkey, and my friend Jenna and I were dancing and we left our drinks.
And we both started to feel real fucked up. We only had one drink each. We started to feel real fucked up and we both looked at each other and we were like, we gotta go. And then we got home and then we woke up like 14 hours later.
Zoe: Wow. Lucky.
Heather: I just like the fact that you could go to an establishment and the person behind the bar-
Zoe: that makes me like, not like trust bartenders.
Heather: No. And by the way, you shouldn't. Because anywhere you go, just because a person is like authority or a person works there doesn't mean they're a good person.
Zoe: And that brings it back to like now when I order anything at the bar, I always watch what they're doing and watch what they're pouring into that drink. And if you are drinking, you should be watching what they're pouring into that drink.
Heather: Absolutely. Tell 'em [00:52:00] to drink it first.
Zoe: I am looking out for what they're putting in for my sobriety. You should be looking out for what they're putting in for your-
Heather: life.
Zoe: For your life.
Heather: Now that we are sober, we do see the world a little darker, which is true 'cause it's just it, we, we see for one of we is-
Zoe: With open eyes.
Heather: We've been in situations that are dangerous and now we're like, that was on you, babe. I think for the spouse or the loved one or the friend this is where it gets difficult.
Because you, if you live with the person, you know what they're like, you know that something's off. You know that there's sneaky shit going on. There's a weird behavior change. I have a friend who like knows when his wife is gonna relapse because she's acting weird. And he can't even really explain what that means.
And when he would tell it, say it to me, I'm like, oh, 'cause she's probably already drunk. And he's like, no, no. It didn't start till like the next day. And I'm like okay, maybe that's true, but like, you know, [00:53:00] you trust your gut. You know when your people are being sneaky, but it's so hard 'cause you don't wanna call someone out on it 'cause they're gonna freak out.
If they're an addict and they're lying about their alcohol, they're gonna yell in your face.
Zoe: And you do not want an addict to yell in your face.
Heather: No. No. Because it's hard. It's hard to call somebody out on their behavior. Most of the time people know. And it's like-
Zoe: and they don't wanna be told.
Heather: What am I, I gonna say like, am I gonna say you're drinking too much? I know you're drinking. That's what my ex used to do. He'd be like, are you fucking drunk? It's 9:00 AM And I'd be like, no. Or I would like get, I would get up early, I would like take a shot of gin and then get back into bed and he'd be like, you smell like alcohol and I'm like, no, I just brushed my teeth.
Zoe: We're bad liars.
Heather: That's a lie.
Zoe: Bad, bad.
Heather: What would you say, like if somebody, you suspect someone has a drinking problem, do you think it's as a loved one, or a friend, do you think it's on you to say something as you as a sober person now? Like what do you [00:54:00] think?
Zoe: I think that, you know, if they do.
Heather: Yeah.
Zoe: I think they will come to you when they're ready.
Heather: Okay.
Zoe: I think you can like hint around the fact that, you know and they'll understand like, we're not stupid, you know? I don't think you have to be like, I know you're an alcoholic! But that's really aggressive.
Heather: I know you drink too much!
Zoe: Stop drinking!
Heather: That Stanley is full of wine!
Zoe: Gimme some!
Heather: Every time I try to get a bottle of water in this house, it's full of vodka. Cut down, man, Heather.
Zoe: No, but I think that you, I think as a loved one, you can acknowledge that, you know that they're hurting, you know? I don't think it's, it doesn't feel right to sneak around and act like everything's kosher when you know it's not.
It gives the addict space to open up to you. Because they know that, you know.
Heather: I wasn't gonna go to rehab. I [00:55:00] wasn't gonna get clean until I wanted to or I really was like, ready.
Zoe: It's just nice to like know that there's someone to talk to about it if and when you're ready to.
Heather: I didn't have anyone that I was like, I didn't tell anyone, like, oh, I'm really struggling with my alcohol. People knew, but I was never gonna admit that.
It might might've been nice to just be honest 'cause there was just so much lying.
Your friends that are doing drugs or drinking are probably going to the bathroom a lot. I had a friend recently say to me, I don't know, we went out with this guy and his brother and his brother just like, was always in the bathroom.
Like he kept going to the bathroom and I was like, does he have like diarrhea? And I was like, no, he's doing coke. No, he's in the bathroom doing coke.
Zoe: No. And I realized that when I first got sober and started going out with my friends, I realized that the people that I'm going out with, the ones who are drinking half of the time, is spent at the bar waiting for the bartender to come.
And the other half is going to the [00:56:00] bathroom because A, you're doing drugs or B, you just have to pee because you're drinking so much. Honestly, that's when I started to like going out with that gay friend Brandon of mine because he doesn't drink. So. All of our time can be on the dance floor.
And that's where I wanna be the whole night. I don't want half of my time to be waiting with my friends, waiting for them to get a drink. Or waiting in line for the bathroom because they have to go at least three times when we're out. I need to go one time to the bathroom when I go out and once to get a drink.
And it's a waste of my night now. I wanna be on the dance floor for at least 90% of the time.
Heather: Well, that's the thing, going out now isn't an excuse for you to drink. It's an excuse for you to have fun.
Zoe: I wanna be on the dance floor shaking ass.
Heather: You're going for what's intended which is really nice.
Zoe: I'm not going there to be at the bar or being in the bathroom.
Heather: And when you go to functions like that and you're in your addiction, you really take those moments to let your freak flag fly and drink as much as you fucking want because everyone else is. So it's like tonight you're not the problem.
Everyone's the problem.
Zoe: And also looking back on it, it's like that's why I had no [00:57:00] fun, because I was always waiting for a drink or in the bathroom. I was maybe on the dance floor for 20% of the night. Other than that, I was going outside smoking. My ritual was probably go outside, smoke, get a drink, go to the bathroom, go outside, smoke, get a drink, go to the bathroom.
The dance floor was never seen.
Heather: Yeah.
Zoe: The interactions with people and actually socializing, having a good time or never seen.
Heather: The next one, I would say would be blacking out, forgetting pieces of your night. That's really problematic.
Zoe: I was blacking out the first, like, I think the second time I drank, I black out.
Heather: Really? Okay. You started hard.
Zoe: And I was chasing the blackout. I think that's what I was doing.
Heather: Really?
Zoe: Yeah. Were you chasing the blackout?
Heather: No, I just wanted to be as drunk as long as possible. And then drift into sleep. I also, I think I forgot a lot of stuff because I was drunk also just because if you never stop drinking, your brain is like sitting in alcohol. It's like, just don't know that anything was really registering.
Zoe: I don't know. It [00:58:00] just like sucks that I don't remember any of those nights, you know? And that's where it gets scary too, if you don't remember.
Heather: There is gonna be something that happens to you if you keep drinking the way you're drinking, something's gonna happen and you're gonna be like, oh fuck, I don't remember what happened. And it's gonna be a dangerous thing.
Zoe: You're just like playing. It's too risky.
Heather: It's so risky.
Zoe: It's so risky, and it's really not worth it. And it's, it is naive to think like nothing will ever happen to you.
Heather: Yes it is. And when you mix alcohol and drugs with that, you really get confident.
Zoe: Yeah, you do. And I think that was my problem as well. Like I was like, oh, I'm unstoppable. No one can fuck with me.
Heather: You're also a perfect victim when you're vulnerable like that.
Zoe: And I did, I loved playing the victim.
Heather: Oh yeah. I played it for a while.
Fucking up any part of your life, that's a big one. People like to pretend it's not happening.
Zoe: I used to like pretend that like it didn't matter, like when [00:59:00] I was losing my jobs and shit.
Heather: I think there's a lot of things that I did that I fucked up because of drinking and I just,
Zoe: And we're still paying the price-
Heather: Yes.
Zoe: To this day, you know?
Heather: What other people can look out for is things like neglecting your responsibilities, people having financial issues, changing your appearance, things like that to really look out for. It's not gonna be super obvious every single time, but but it does happen. I mean, all I was so financially like I was broke. I was spending all of my money on alcohol and eventually that's what happens. Everybody I know who's been in an addiction, not everyone I know. I know a few people who have spent their life savings or have spent their savings for their renovations. Shit like that.
Zoe: Or like their parent dies, they get their inheritance and they blow it away on cocaine.
Heather: 100000%. They get themselves into these situations where it's like, now I'm an addict. Now there's no going back. Decline in mental health [01:00:00] is a big one.
Zoe: So this is interesting for me 'cause I always thought that I was like depressed and anxious and then I drank because of that. But no, I was just depressed and anxious 'cause I was drinking.
Heather: But when you got into drinking, you got into drinking 'cause you wanted to fit in. So that is like. I think that's a part of a-
Zoe: part of it. Yeah, that's true.
Heather: You like wanna be what you wanna do, what everyone else is doing. You found alcohol and you're like, oh yeah, yeah, this is it. It makes you feel good. It makes you feel-
Zoe: like a, I don't know. I totally thought though, when I was like in active addiction that I was never gonna be mentally okay because I thought like I was too far done. Like I thought that my brain was permanently fucked and that I could never be happy without it.
Heather: Were you, you were depressed?
Zoe: Yeah.
Heather: Did you try to kill yourself or did you-
Zoe: Yeah
Heather: You tried?
Zoe: I would come to from being blackout and like realize I was standing on the railing of my balcony and I lived on the 46th floor.
Heather: Can we just [01:01:00] take a pause for that and like realize what Zoe just said. Standing on the railing of your balcony in the middle of a blackout coming to is literally insane. It's crazy. I'm so glad you're alive. But when you would come to, would it be scary or were you were like, oh you again?
Zoe: It would be scary and I remember like being like, okay, are we gonna do it? And then like and like I definitely, there was one time that I was going to, and I don't know what happened and I didn't.
Heather: Wow.
Zoe: But yeah, like every time I would end up at the hospital, I probably ended up at the hospital 10 to 20 times. I don't know.
Heather: Were they nice to you or did they treat you like shit, you were an alcoholic?
Zoe: No, they treated like shit because I was an alcoholic. But every time I would show up there, it was because like, either like my friends or family or even my fucking boss called the cop, like, called an ambulance on me 'cause they thought I was gonna die or hurt myself 'cause I would be, I always talked about wanting to kill myself when I got drunk. It was like I always had [01:02:00] suicidal thoughts. That's where my brain would go a lot of the time.
Heather: It's so sad. It's so scary to be, I can like feel myself in that place, like lying in my bed, looking out the window, holding a bottle of wine and being like, am I gonna do this forever?
I can't. I can't do this. Like I am gonna have to end it.
Zoe: And it's crazy just to know that I was that down bad and I am so happy and content with my life now, thank God. So if you're in that down, down bad, it's possible to get out.
Heather: It really is. It is. And it's crazy.
Zoe: It's not like we're special. Like it's not if we can do it, so can you.
And a lot of people that I know that didn't go to rehab, like they can do it too. You don't need to go to rehab if you can't afford it. It's just a luxury that we are, we're fortunate to do.
Heather: Our very last one, and this is me and maybe you, avoiding people who don't drink.
Zoe: Mm.
Heather: If you find yourself getting [01:03:00] annoyed when people don't drink-
Zoe: If you're annoyed with us right now talking about being sober, then you're drunk.
Heather: Then you're an absolute drunk.
I would find myself getting annoyed at my sister 'cause she would not drink in the way I was drinking. Anyone. Or I'd go to dinner and I would have a friend be like, I'm not drinking tonight.
I'm like, are you fucking kidding? That's why I'm out.
Zoe: Well, I actually have a perfect example of this. Oh. So my friend that I would like party with, she would bring around this girl and she never really drank, like me and my other friend. And I was like, oh, like I don't really like her. She's like, not cool.
She's not fun. She doesn't drink like us. And now that I'm sober, I'm best friends with that girl. I'm going to meet up with her right now to go to the Toronto Vintage Show.
Heather: Well, first of all, how dare you? Best friends. Okay.
Zoe: I'm glad that we went through everything we went through. It had to happen and we made it out alive.
Heather: And if you listen to this podcast and you're questioning your own relationship with alcohol or somebody you love, just know [01:04:00] it is a journey. Everything is on its own time. It doesn't mean if you have any of these or you feel any of these, you have to stop drinking today and that's it. That's not what it means.
I would just urge every single person to reflect on their relationship with alcohol. Maybe test yourself a little bit.
Zoe: Maybe journal about it.
Heather: Maybe journal about it. Me and Zoe love a journal.
Guest: We love a journal entry.
Heather: And you know, we're saying this from two people who've been through all of these things. And we're saying-
Zoe: And on the, the extreme end of it.
Heather: Yes.
Zoe: Like you might be going through it. You might have a few of these, but not to the extreme. And like it's gonna be okay. Like, just reflect and have a good relationship with alcohol if you can't have one.
I'm
Heather: proud of you.
Zoe: Proud you.
Heather: See ya
Thanks for listening to Girl, Undrunk. You can follow us on Instagram and TikTok @girlundrunkpodcast or send me an email at heather@girlundrunk.com. Before we go, thank you to our amazing producer, Ariane Michaud and [01:05:00] support from her team at Consciously Produced. Martin Nunez-Bonilla for the graphics.
Ian Sit for setting up our sound, Daniel James for the music and final edits, and Chelsea Neilan for the transcript and show notes. This podcast would not be possible without you.
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