#10: The Sister Episode (feat. Caryn Chappell)
Heather sits down with her sister Caryn to talk about mental health, control, the long tail of a bad relationship, and the early signs of Heather's addiction. They unpack childhood dynamics, quiet survival strategies, and the ways their relationship has shifted over time. There's therapy talk, memory gaps, and a lot of honesty about what got missed—and how to move forward from here.
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The Sister Episode (feat. Caryn Chappell): Transcript
Heather: [00:00:00] This podcast covers sensitive topics that may be difficult for some listeners. Please take care while listening. Hey, it's Heather, your host, and today's episode features a very special guest. My sister Caryn, I somehow convinced her to talk to me for two hours about our childhood mental health addiction and all the weird emotional gymnastics that come with being family.
It's a conversation about being siblings, but more than that, it's about what happens when you try to have really difficult talks with the people you love about drinking drugs, getting sober, and those years you didn't know how to show up for one another. Talking about addiction with family is weird and scary and sometimes really funny in a dark way.
So if you're in recovery, thinking about getting sober or just trying to talk to your family without losing it or running away forever, this one's for you. You are listening to Girl Un Drunk[00:01:00]
Drunk. Hi everyone. Welcome back to Girl Undrunk. This is a very special episode, my friend Zoe. You all know Zoe. She's away. She has a boyfriend now. And so she's away for Easter doing, you know, her girlfriend duties. And in Zoe's Place is my very own sister. Karen, welcome to Girl Undrunk.
Caryn: Hello. Thank you for having me.
Heather: Um, Karen is now sitting with my son. Nike is just over there keeping her company. It's very sweet. We're trying to keep him quiet, calm. 'cause usually he's, usually he's at my mom's when we, our mom, our mom's our collective mom. Mm-hmm. So this, I have this like little episode planned and then Karen pissed me off yesterday.
So I was, honestly, I, after that conversation, I feel that,
Caryn: yeah.
Heather: After that conversation I was mad and I was like, at the park and I was talking to someone about it. Someone who like you wouldn't know
Caryn: that's okay. [00:02:00]
Heather: And I was just like, and now she's coming over to do this podcast and I like hate her fucking choices.
Mm-hmm. And I'm annoyed with her. Mm-hmm. And I didn't, I was like, now I don't even wanna do this. But then I feel like I had enough time yesterday to like. Calm down.
Caryn: Yeah.
Heather: Because I've been kind of waiting for it. Like, it feels like the kind of thing that's gonna come, like keep reoccurring in your life.
Yes. And then I'm like, I'm gonna have to figure out a way to,
Caryn: well, I felt like I needed to tell you because I felt like I would be lying by omission and not being like really honest. And so it's like, I need to get this out there. So, you know, 'cause then I'm gonna start feeling bad about not sharing.
Heather: Yeah.
Caryn: Um, but then I was happy that you still wanted me to come over. I was like, okay, we're good. Were you
Heather: afraid I was gonna not want you to come over?
Caryn: Not like afraid, but I was like, that seems like that could be, it was a possibility that it's like, okay, no, we can't do this today. And I was kind of, we, I was Ubering over here today and I was in my little dark cloud feelings about stuff.
Mm-hmm. And I was like, oh, am I gonna be able to do this? Is this gonna be [00:03:00] okay? Or is it gonna be
Heather: because I'm mad at you?
Caryn: Not because I No. 'cause I heard what you said. Yeah. And it's making me like think and feel. And I think that I'm. Very easily up and down. Yeah. So it's like I was in a good mood before and then I told you about it and then I heard what you said, and then it was, it made me start to slowly go back into my little dark holes.
So did
Heather: you like take in anything? I said
Caryn: it's like I take it in and then at the same time my body's also like, I don't want to do
Heather: Yeah.
Caryn: What you're saying. Yeah. I don't want to go that direction. So it's
Heather: why
Caryn: I think that's a good question.
Heather: Yeah, it's an interesting question. Like, and
Caryn: we don't, yeah, I'm being really vague about it right now.
Of course. I'm kind of just like,
Heather: I'm not gonna like, I mean, do you wanna say like what it kind of, is that what it's about? Like, we can say that it's about a guy.
Caryn: Yeah,
Heather: yeah, yeah. There, there's a guy that I don't personally I don't love.
Caryn: Mm-hmm.
Heather: In your life. I [00:04:00] don't know this person, but I've seen your pattern with this person.
Mm-hmm. And I really thought that the last time mm-hmm. That you split.
Caryn: Mm-hmm.
Heather: Was it?
Caryn: Mm-hmm.
Heather: Except I knew I've, I've been waiting for it because there's one thing I feel like you didn't block him on.
Caryn: Mm-hmm.
Heather: And you were like, well, you never know. And I was like, okay. And he slipped
Caryn: back in or like, eventually, like everything was blocked.
And then within the past, like, I don't know, since the summer I kind of was like, unblocking.
Heather: And why? What's the thing that makes you unblocked? You just are like, oh, my mental health is better now let me introduce chaos.
Caryn: Uh, it's hard to always remember too, because I feel like I get very, like in the moment with what I'm feeling and it's hard to sometimes like look back to be like,
Heather: yeah,
Caryn: what was I feeling in that moment?
And like, why did I make this choice? Or why did I do this thing? Um.
Heather: Yeah. It is a weird thing, right? Because you, like you, every time this specific thing ends, you call me in such a state of like yeah. Sadness and anger and confusion and
Caryn: mm-hmm.
Heather: And, and I, [00:05:00] I get it. I'm here for you. I, but it's like, yeah, you do so quickly.
Forget how horrible he makes you feel. Mm-hmm. And not that he's a bad person. Mm-hmm. Let's not, like, we're not putting this out there that Karen's in like a abusive situation, but like, I do wonder what that switch is for you, where you're like, so sad, so sad, and then a few years later mm-hmm. He comes back knocking and you're immediately ready.
Caryn: Yeah. Well, I think it's something that's always been in either the back of my head, the middle of the head. The front of my head.
Heather: This specific person.
Caryn: Yeah. Yeah. Just like, it's not something that I've ever fully like gotten out of my system. Mm-hmm. And I don't know if that's, I don't know, because then I didn't, didn't date for two, two and a half years because I just didn't feel like that something that.
I wanted or could handle or needed. So,
Heather: and then when you
Caryn: were, I'm not answering the question,
Heather: it's No, but listen,
Caryn: but I'm trying to like figure out, it's a hard question. Figure out for myself too. Yeah.
Heather: And I think that is [00:06:00] why it is such a hard question because you know, you're like, on paper, this doesn't make sense, but there is a thing inside me that is like I'm addicted to in a way.
You
Caryn: know? Yeah. Is it that or is it like just this like question mark of feeling like, is it me? Am I the one that just keeps like, I don't know, I was on my way over here and I'm like, am I just losing the plot of my life again? Am I just like, am not the star of my own show?
Heather: No,
Caryn: and I feel like for the past couple of years I'm like, I have been the star and I have been able to like put myself first and enjoy the things and just, you know, without the stress of relationship stuff, but it's like, but I do want that at some point.
But it's like. Is this gonna happen with everybody that I like?
Heather: But
Caryn: ev encounter or,
Heather: but have you tried to encounter anybody else? No, I haven't.
Caryn: Yeah,
Heather: so it's like, that's what I'm seeing, like from the outside. Sorry, this just got so therapeutic. But like sometimes I ask, I ask you, I'm like, did you talk about it in therapy?
And she's like, no. I'm like, what the fuck are you in therapy for? Like a big thing will happen and you'll tell [00:07:00] me. And I'm like, what did your therapist say? And you're like, oh, I didn't really bring it up. We were talking about something else. And I'm like, alright. Like you could have an arrow through the heart and be like, can we talk about like grocery prices?
Yeah. Like there'd be something totally different if you would never talk about grocery prices. What a ridiculous thing. Um, no, I just, I, I, uh, it's an interesting thing to like watch you do this and like, I also have seen in the past two years your life has changed. Mm-hmm. Like you are more confident, you are prettier than you've ever been.
Mm-hmm. You like your life. You're not so like, I don't know, I just feel like we're both kind of like out of the societal norm of like needing to have like kids in a family right now. Mm-hmm. Yuck. And
Caryn: it's not the goal.
Heather: It's not the goal, but then I just feel like you do so well and you're, you look cool and you are making cool moves, and then you're like, my mental health is better.
Why don't I introduce this fucking substance back into my life and see how it makes me feel this time news fall flash. It's not gonna be any better.
Caryn: Mm-hmm.
Heather: You know? And, and [00:08:00] like I can say this to you because I feel like we've had this conversation and I'm obviously not mad at you. I mean, let you do what you need to do.
Mm-hmm. But to me, this is an addiction podcast and like my mental health is better. I've been sober for two years. What do you think would happen if I started drinking again?
Caryn: It would be very bad.
Heather: It would be very bad.
Caryn: Yeah.
Heather: It, it doesn't matter that my mental health is better. Yeah. The thing, the source Yeah.
Of my drinking, like the drinking is evil to me. Mm-hmm. I don't think drinking is evil, but to me it is that evil. Yeah. That when it comes into my body, I can't handle it. Mm-hmm. Even if my mental health is so much better. Mm-hmm. You know?
Caryn: Yeah. And it's not that I was, I haven't been working on my mental health to reenter this again.
Like it wasn't,
Heather: yeah.
Caryn: That wasn't my plan. That wasn't my goal. That's not what I was trying to do. But it's always, again, it's been in the back, middle, front of my mind. So it's, it's not something that has been completely [00:09:00] removed from my system. So when opportunity arises as in like, Hey, let's hang out, it's like, yeah, okay.
I can do that. Like, I feel like
Heather: mm-hmm.
Caryn: Better now. Um,
Heather: like better that it's not gonna trigger you and freak you the fuck out.
Caryn: No, because it did, like, immediately, like within the first week, it was like. Uh, like, but
Heather: what do you mean?
Caryn: I was just, I was getting that like anxious loop cycle of like, I'm not good enough.
I'm not pretty enough, I'm not skinny enough and I hate talking about like
Heather: mm-hmm.
Caryn: Body size. But it's like, those are the,
Heather: it's real,
Caryn: the things that go on in my mind. And like, I think the first anxiety loop I started to feel myself fall into, I'm like, I mean, I could go into this fully, but instead I was like, well, what if I just like communicate this and like text and reach out and say like, this is the thing that I'm going to, I'm trying to change my,
Heather: what was the thing?
Was it about scheduling or timing or
Caryn: It was like, it was just like how, [00:10:00] like nothing had happened or come up, but it's like we had our first, um.
Heather: Rekindling of a date.
Caryn: Yeah. And then I was like, this is great. And then the next day I was like, okay, I'm good. But like, also it's just, it's this like slow little build of like tightening in my body and then all of a sudden it's like, oh, I can't hold onto this anymore.
So either one, I'm gonna like cry and let myself say all the negative things that like, help fuel that kind of out of my system of like, I'm the worst. I suck. I am like
Heather: mm-hmm.
Caryn: Never gonna be good enough. Kind of. It always comes to that, like, I'm never gonna be good enough. Um, so then, yeah, I just, I, I reached out and was like, this is what's happening right now.
Heather: Yeah. Mari
Caryn: like, I'll call you soon. And then, so in that moment it was like, oh my God, my brain just like cleared up. I felt like I could actually be really specific about. Mm-hmm. What was going on in my head at the time, and I like wrote a bunch down and was like, oh my God. Like, I feel like I [00:11:00] just like purged that out differently than before.
Instead of just like, I'll cry, I'll feel better.
Heather: Mm-hmm.
Caryn: I'll go to my friends and then the next day it'll be good. And by the time we speak, at some point I won't even remember what was going on and I'll just get to enjoy the good stuff and then it just kind of goes up and down. So I think there's a part of me too that's like, I'm trying differently, I'm giving it the chance that I've always wanted to be able to give it, but I didn't know that I could do that before I, I couldn't do that before.
I don't think I would ever been like, I'm, I'm having a hard time right now and could really use a chat.
Heather: Yeah. Sounds fucking exhausting to me, to be honest with you. To go through that first week after rekindling something and then like having to go through all this, like this shit in your head and talk yourself down and write about it and like brace for impact and be like, this is what happened last time in the five other times before.
And so let me do it differently and da da da da. It's a lot. I know that you don't feel like you're good enough. And I feel like that's put him in a really great place. 'cause the first episode I think of this podcast, I talked about that. Like, I don't ever feel like I'm [00:12:00] good enough. Mm-hmm. Like we were raised in the nineties.
It's a very violent time to be a woman. Like very violent, very like boys. Were getting everything. They still are. We raised them and they become CEOs. I just, I, I feel like the woman's work is to feel like we're not good enough. Mm-hmm. And then these men come along and can do whatever they want and you're like, please love me.
I'll do anything. I'll literally shapeshift for you because that's what I've been taught.
Caryn: Mm-hmm.
Heather: And then you lose yourself in that relationship because you're doing everything for him. And I see you lose yourself in that relationship.
Caryn: Yeah. And I don't want to do that. And it, it, like, I
Heather: what's like the, like what if you in your like, best fantasies with this person, like what does your life look like?
Caryn: I think that's the part that it's like, I actually don't know.
Heather: Like, you're gonna Lisbon next month. Do you feel, can you like imagine him going with you?
Caryn: I think there's two minds. It's like, I wanna do it by myself, but also like, it would be fun to travel with him.
Heather: Okay.
Caryn: Um, so I, but I, I, I can see them both kind of like [00:13:00] equally.
And
Heather: would he, would he ever make the time to travel with you for a week?
Caryn: I don't know.
Heather: Do you think he would?
Caryn: I think at some point.
Heather: How long has it been? How many years have you guys been in contact?
Caryn: We met in 2020.
Heather: That's it. Oh my god. This feels like a 20 year fucking thing for me. I'm exhausted. Okay. Five years still too long.
Everybody move on.
I think the way that I would love eventually, if you ever want a partner to see you, to feel you, to hear you talk about a partner would be like. With total calmness. Mm-hmm. Joy. And remembering what you said, because that is like, that is security. That's safety. That's being excited about someone. Mm-hmm.
Caryn: It's
Heather: not having to go home and journal into a rabbit hole, you know? And I get it. It's, it's, I'm not,
Caryn: and I think these tools are like, they are good for me, but I do feel like I'm depending on, it's like, I was thinking about that in the drive over. I'm like, how much breathing and writing can I do to seriously, like, make myself be okay?
And it's like, those things are [00:14:00] important and like I'm already doing a lot of it already. Um,
Heather: but if you're like, I'm gonna journal my way into him being right for me is like, it's a lot.
Caryn: Yeah. It's a lot.
Heather: It's a lot. But I also like, you're smart and you know what you need to do. And like that's the thing too, it's like going to rehab, right?
It's like if you're not ready to quit drinking or quit your substance and someone is yelling at you on a podcast to stop fucking drinking the blood of this evil man. Yeah, he's not evil, but to me he is. Then like, you're not going to do it. You're not gonna get clean, you're not gonna get sober. You said you are like, there's always like a, I haven't been able to see it through or approach it in the way I've wanted to.
And it's like, do you know how many fucking times I tried to be a sophisticated drinker?
Caryn: Yeah.
Heather: How many times I tried to not drink in the morning? Like,
Caryn: I mean Yeah. It's an interesting way to, it's the
Heather: same thing.
Caryn: Yeah. Yeah.
Heather: You just think you're better because you're not an alcoholic.
Caryn: I'm so much better. No, it's, it almost feels like it's, it's not good enough to be considered an addiction.
It's like,
Heather: yeah. By the [00:15:00] way, I thought that when I went to rehab.
Caryn: Yeah.
Heather: So did Zoe.
Caryn: Mm-hmm.
Heather: And Zoe, like I'm pretty sure walked barefoot to her rehab in the middle of the night to see if she could get in.
Caryn: Yeah.
Heather: And she didn't even think she was bad enough to be there.
Caryn: Yeah. And I think a part of me is like, trying to prove myself that it's like, and I was questioning that, like, am I trying to prove myself, like to myself, to this person?
Is it, um,
Heather: yeah. I, I do feel like the normies out here that aren't addicts actually would really benefit from like AA because it's, you're just like talking yourself into a circle in a corner and like trying to make everything work so that you can be enough for him. And that is what I feel like you're not getting.
Is like, he's not, he's not going to be with you. Mm-hmm. At the end of the day.
Caryn: Mm-hmm.
Heather: He's proven that to you and it has quite literally nothing to do with you.
Caryn: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I like, I do know that.
Heather: Yeah. I mean, it would be sick if you guys could just split [00:16:00] amicably and you'd be like, no, I still feel great and my feet are on the ground.
That's not going to happen because this person is your drug.
Caryn: Mm-hmm.
Heather: And we go nuts for that. Shit
Caryn: nuts,
Heather: you know?
Caryn: Mm-hmm.
Heather: Oh my God. How do you feel about the women's Space mission?
Caryn: I feel like maybe it would've come across better some years ago. Yes. Maybe pre COVID. I feel like it would've been like a, a moment
Heather: or like even 2020.
Caryn: Maybe, maybe not, but I think right now it's just you look at it and be like, what a waste.
Heather: It's so embarrassing
Caryn: of money and it's like, I love, I love, I love, I love women.
Yeah, I love women empowerment. But it's also like
Heather: send 'em to the moon.
Caryn: It's just like not the, it's not the vibe, it's not in touch. It's not the vibe, it's not the energy. It's actually like, it's so out of touch.
Heather: The only thing that could be more out of touch is if they were all wearing like skims, astronaut suits.
Caryn: I think I would like that more.
Heather: Also, someone said to Katie Pear, they're like, I guess now you're an astronaut. And she was like, thank you.
Caryn: Yeah. [00:17:00]
Heather: I was like, yeah. And I
Caryn: like, in one way Katie was like, sure. Like get it. Be the astronaut. You wanna be but's. So but's also. Yeah, like I just think you took a trip to space.
A really expensive,
Heather: weird, weird,
Caryn: weird with her little flower and the kissing the earth and it's like, it's. It's
Heather: like, I just don't get why you did that. Like why did you go, I am so busy all the time watching tv. Like why did you go on a say,
Caryn: someone said like on another podcast that like, she took a photo somewhere else with, um, maybe like a Tesla photo or something, and it's like, KA Perry knows the world is ending and she's trying to get into the right bunker with the right people.
Like, and it's like a silly comment, but it's like she's putting herself in the places that she needs to be where she thinks this world is going and she will be. Sent to Mars first to start the new life.
Heather: Well then
Caryn: that, I'm making up the rest of that, but Well then
Heather: that to me is feminism.
Caryn: That's feminism.
So then that's,
Heather: yeah.
Caryn: Capitalism, that's feminism.
Heather: It's just so funny that like Jeff [00:18:00] Bezo, I just like to call him that.
Caryn: Yeah. Bezo.
Heather: Um, I just feel like it's, it's hilarious to like, get married to somebody and then send them to space and like, oh yeah. She didn't have a choice. Like she had to go and it's like she
Caryn: had to go
Heather: be careful who you marry because you are most likely to be murdered by your husband, and now we have to be worried if they're gonna send you to the moon.
Caryn: Yeah.
Heather: If this is where technology is going. Women used to get lobotomies, then it was Xanax, now it's wine. Now they're sending them to space.
Caryn: Yeah. Get outta here.
Heather: Terrifying.
Caryn: Oh yeah.
Heather: Under the guise of feminism. I'm not going to space. Are you going
Caryn: I'm not going to space. I'm not going to the deep sea. No, I'm not.
Heather: No.
Caryn: I I don't even like going on a plane. No, but that's, we, I have to,
Heather: we have to. I
Caryn: have to.
Heather: Because what happens if you and I specifically don't go on planes? Who do we end up? Like Dad. Dad.
Caryn: Sorry.
Heather: Sorry. Our father is really afraid to fly. Yeah. Sorry. We're putting you on blast. But it needs to be said.
Caryn: Yeah.
And it's like, that's okay. That's cool. We've accepted, we're fine.
Heather: Mm-hmm. [00:19:00] But we can't follow in your footsteps because it's insane. We have to be able to go
Caryn: mm-hmm.
Heather: To, we have to be able to go on trips and I
Caryn: can work on that and do all the feelings and the reflecting, but I also just have to put myself on an airplane to go.
Yeah.
Heather: And you don't even drink on a plane.
Caryn: No.
Heather: That's so weird to me.
Caryn: No,
Heather: it's like, mom, mom, mom. I used
Caryn: to take Ativan.
Heather: Well, I took a Lorazepam member that last time and I, and I texted you and I was like, maybe I should take Lorazepam for my severe anxiety attacks.
Caryn: Mm-hmm.
Heather: And then I got home and I was like, still feeling LoRa Lorazepam.
And I was like, mm-hmm. I'll take them. All right. Now I can't take this. No.
Caryn: Did you?
Heather: I only had two.
Caryn: Oh, okay.
Heather: But I didn't take one on the way. Before
Caryn: did. I've never really, never really felt anything with it. Like I, when I've taken Ativan, like it's more of like a, I mean, I know it's mental, but like, it, it was more of like, um, it always feels like a placebo effect.
Like I'm taking it so that in the moment I'm taking it, I'm like, I'm doing my, something for myself to feel calm. But then I actually don't know, like I don't feel anything.
Heather: Right. That's the Ativan
Caryn: and maybe that is, yeah, [00:20:00]
Heather: I feel nothing at all. Nothing at all.
Caryn: Well, it's not, no, it's not that I feel nothing, but it's crazy.
It's crazy.
Heather: I take an Ativan and I got on a plane and I'm not even scared, so it's like probably just mental,
Caryn: but I don't feel like fun. Is what I'm saying. Well,
Heather: yes. I wouldn't say that Ativan is classified as like a party drug.
Caryn: Oh, okay. I guess,
Heather: yeah. It's like a tranquilizer, so,
Caryn: okay.
Heather: It's actually such a square sometimes.
Caryn: I did say to my doctor, I'm like, oh, like I'm going, this was a while ago. Like, I'm going to Japan and with the jet lag, like maybe I can just, you know, take it to like help me go to sleep. And she was like, do not do that.
Heather: Oh, really? Was
Caryn: like, yeah. Out
Heather: hand
Caryn: like, yeah. She's like, you can't be taking that to like help you with sleep and things like just specifically for jet lag or whatever.
And I'm like, oh my God, I'm sorry. I won't, I'm so sorry for saying that. Oh
Heather: my God. I feel like a doctor has literally never told me.
Caryn: Well, I felt, I was like, thank you for taking care of me in that moment. I'm glad that I said the thought and that you were like, please don't do that.
Heather: Yeah.
Caryn: Yeah. Are
Heather: you gonna end up like your sister?
Caryn: Yeah. That was the other sentence that she said to me.
Heather: Yeah. Yeah. [00:21:00] God. She's like, we all know about your sister. Shut the fuck up. Um, yeah, I don't know if there's any real celebrity news right now. I am getting really nervous and overstimulated and excited about the Diddy trial that's coming up in May. I believe that's May right?
It's
Caryn: in May.
Heather: I think so.
Caryn: I literally, well, I've been off TikTok because I couldn't, I spent all summer looking at Diddy,
Heather: TikTok
Caryn: and it really made me upset.
Heather: Yeah.
Caryn: I was afraid to go anywhere. I felt like Diddy was after me.
Heather: I knew You really did think that, that if he spoke about it in private
Caryn: Yeah.
Heather: That he was gonna traffic you.
Caryn: Well, no.
Heather: People talking about it on the internet, like
Caryn: it just was like so present.
Heather: It was scary.
Caryn: And every time I went on TikTok, I'm like, I'm terrified of like, I felt like he was gonna blow up the world and I would be in the place that that would happen. Just coincidentally,
Heather: that's my whole life. That's why I have a hammer in my car.
Mmm. Just men are after me.
Caryn: What's the spray that you're allowed to have?
Heather: Coyote spray or bear spray. Okay. We can't have [00:22:00] pepper spray you and me if I'm outside. Mm-hmm. As a woman. Mm-hmm. In Canada, in Toronto, I'm walking down the street, 7:00 PM the sun is out and a man approaches me with hate in his eyes, hate, and if, if he attacks me and I pepper spray him with pepper spray.
Caryn: Mm-hmm.
Heather: I catch a charge. How would you describe our relationship as kids?
Caryn: Mm. Kind of like a rollercoaster. I feel like we're really good when we're really good and we're really bad when we're really bad. Yeah. So we have like the most fun and I feel like, I mean, for me, I can say I think I have the most fun with you out of everyone in my life.
Ah, well yeah. That's especially when we're like vibing on those levels. That's so nice. But then I can have like the worst times with you, which we haven't in so long. Like we've definitely like grown and gotten. Healthier. Yeah. Happier. Better.
Heather: We had like one thing, but
Caryn: we had one thing, but it was also like, it needed to happen.
Heather: Stress, travel, a lot of buildup. It was okay.
Caryn: It was a [00:23:00] lot.
Heather: Um, and we like led to a good conversation actually. Mm-hmm. And then I feel like we're better.
Caryn: Mm-hmm.
Heather: Mm-hmm.
Caryn: Mm-hmm.
Heather: But as kids, how did you feel about our dynamic? Because I obviously, I see the way we grew up in one specific way. Mm-hmm. Did you see it in a different way, being the older sister?
Caryn: Well, what is your specific way?
Heather: Well, I just always felt like I was a, there was a lot of pressure. You were very good at things right away. Mm-hmm. Like that felt very clear that like if you were given something, a task dance school. Mm-hmm. It wasn't. Hard for you. It felt just like you're gonna get it done and no one's fucking worried.
Mm-hmm. Whereas like when it came to me, even before it came to me, I was like, oh no.
Caryn: Mm-hmm.
Heather: This is gonna be hard for me. I'm never gonna do it as well as her.
Caryn: Mm-hmm.
Heather: And I think from a very young age, I kind of flipped the script where it's like, I'm never going to be able to do that and be on her level
Caryn: mm-hmm.
Heather: In any regard. So I have to do it kind of in my own way. That's like, [00:24:00] probably not as impressive, but like unique in a way.
Mm.
Caryn: Mm-hmm. Because
Heather: I could just never, I could never be like dance, like I, I just wasn't as like, elegant or even when we were like four. Mm-hmm. You know, like I was very aware.
Caryn: Mm. I didn't feel that way at all.
Heather: Did you feel like things were easy for you? The way I see you is that things were easy.
Caryn: I think I only want to do things that I feel good at. When I look back at videos, I'm like. Sometimes I'm like, oh yeah, you were really good at, not you but me. Like I was good. And then sometimes I'm like, I can't stretch a knee.
I can't point a toe, I can't jump very high. Like, and I'm like, how was I actually good front and center like? Mm-hmm. I think I just had a lot of like charisma and I was good at remembering things. Like I felt like a quiet leader where I was like, mm-hmm. I'm not really the one leading the group and energy, but I'm definitely leading in memory.
Like I know what's happening and I'm gonna come in prepared.
Heather: Yeah.
Caryn: Even if I prepare the night before at like 10:00 PM watching videos and being like, oh, I have to remember my dances. Yeah. And get there, but I will get it done because I don't wanna show [00:25:00] up not knowing what I needed to do. So I think I had a lot of that like.
Internal stress of like showing up, not prepared. Or again, to be put in a place where it's like, oh, you're not good enough. Like I think again, that's like that reoccurring theme of like, I need to show up prepared with all my ducks in a row so that I am good enough.
Heather: When do you think that started?
Caryn: Oh, probably like day one.
I don't know. Probably dance class one, but like,
Heather: yeah,
Caryn: I started when I was four. Would that have been there before? Or maybe, maybe not four. But then you learn and you build and you're like, well, I never wanted to be in trouble. I never wanted to be yelled at. Like that's the most terrifying thing for me.
So anywhere, even
Heather: back then?
Caryn: Yeah, probably.
Heather: I'm wondering,
Caryn: being like singled out in a negative way is like,
Heather: yeah,
Caryn: please just take me away. Put me in space. I don't wanna be here anymore.
Heather: That's exactly right.
Caryn: Send me to the moon. I can't handle this. No. So.
Heather: I wonder like where that came from, like why you have that sense of like, I'll just [00:26:00] be prepared.
I don't have that and maybe I don't have that because you are there to be prepared for me to be honest.
Caryn: I mean, are you scared about people yelling at you?
Heather: Are you fucking kidding me?
Caryn: Because people yell at you a lot more than they yell at me. And thank you for acknowledging that. But I've always thought about it as like, I think I have a very, like a simplified, watered down perspective of it that it's like making me cry is very easy.
Like if like an adult or someone yells at me like I'm gonna fall apart immediately, and it's like in a fucked up way, it's like, that's not that fun. But for you, I feel like you're harder or you're tougher in the moment maybe.
Heather: I don't think so.
Caryn: No. I don't know. That's just how I've always seen it where I'm like, why are people yelling at you?
But not me. Like I feel like I'm too. Easy, but maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it's not about like the 'cause that's a, a negative look on like humans of like they're going after the kid that's tougher to break down
Heather: and maybe they feel bad because when you, I think
Caryn: they feel bad
Heather: when you cry, it's pretty [00:27:00] fucking sad.
I do think sometimes it is more fun, more satisfying to scream in my face.
Caryn: That's what I'm saying. Like
Heather: there's Dunno why there, so,
Caryn: and I, why
Heather: I do cry, I'll cry immediately.
Caryn: Because you'll talk a lot about even things that happen like as an adult now, that it's like, yeah, you are having these confrontations with people or the way that people like speak to you or address you, and it's like mm-hmm that's not happening to me.
Like I'm not getting that kind of like.
Heather: Pushback.
Caryn: Yeah.
Heather: Yeah. It seems like I'm awol and I'm the one starting everything. And that's, I do talk to my therapist about that.
Caryn: Well, I think about it. I'm like, are you just not telling me part of the story where you did like a dirty look or a dirty thing? Right.
But I like, I want not a dirty thing, but like
Heather: just took a nipple out quickly. Ooh.
Caryn: But it's also like, I feel like there's like an energy thing too. Like you're much more open and out there and like
Heather: Yeah.
Caryn: In for better or for worse. And I'm much more closed. For better or for worse. Like it's,
Heather: yeah. I get myself into trouble.
Caryn: Yeah. And I do [00:28:00] not
Heather: Well, and Okay. I, I,
Caryn: and it's not good or bad, but it's just like, that is our, like one of our big opposite qualities.
Heather: Yeah.
Caryn: I think. Yeah.
Heather: And I, I think also I go into things sometimes, like naively I do, like I go into things thinking the best in people.
Caryn: Oh. I think I go into things thinking the worst of people. Not across the board. Yeah. But I go in with a lot of like. Fear and caution
Heather: I think. I think I do.
Caryn: Oh, okay.
Heather: And then I tell everyone at the park all of my trauma.
Caryn: Yeah.
Heather: Like I tell a new person, well that's
Caryn: it.
Heather: The girl that I met at the park the other day. Mm-hmm. We like spilled all of our male trauma to each other. Yeah. And I was like that. And then I walk away with like weird post nut regret because I'm like, I just told you
Caryn: post nut.
Heather: Yeah. Like I just feel like, so like, oh, I shouldn't have done that.
I feel dirty now. Like, what did I say? Our poor parents. Oh. Actually, let's talk about the fact that our, here's some trauma. Our dad used to fake heart attacks.
Caryn: Oh yeah.
Heather: And
Caryn: I Maybe that's where a lot of it [00:29:00] started from.
Heather: Oh my God.
Caryn: Sorry. Dad.
Heather: Dad. No, no, not sorry. Because what you did to us was so fucking nuts.
Yeah. Even now, to this day, if Dad, let's say dad goes to the moon and. Um, his spaceship explodes.
Caryn: Mm-hmm.
Heather: It will be our fault. It's
Caryn: our fault.
Heather: It will be our fault. Yeah. And mom will be there to say, told ya.
Caryn: Yeah.
Heather: Told ya. Because Karen and I would scream at each other and my,
Caryn: we'd already be screaming about what?
Like clothes or a hair straightener or a something.
Just
Heather: you being in my space.
How
Caryn: many hair straighteners have we like thrown or threatened at one another?
Heather: I remember when I had you in the corner of the bathroom with the straightener and I was
Caryn: like, I'm pretty sure I've also, like, I've had the straightener, like across the shoulder, like wanting, I would never, I mean, maybe I would never, I would
Heather: smack you.
Do you not remember when I had you in the corner and I was like, I swear to God I'll burn you.
Do you feel like you took on a specific role as the older sister? Like, do you remember being like, okay, now this is my responsibility? Or like, just an heir of [00:30:00]
Caryn: this is something that we've been talking about in therapy too. My therapist thinks for some reason that I am. A leader and I just like have never, I mean, we already talked about me feeling like a quiet leader in dance.
Yeah. But that's not something that I would've ever thought about before.
Heather: Mm-hmm.
Caryn: But I think, and I don't know if I still like, I don't even know if I identify with it, but in a way I feel like I was a controller of karma.
Heather: Oh
Caryn: yeah. So again, quiet leader, like doing a lot of the internal work of the thinking, the feeling inside and like trying to hold everything together, but,
Heather: but not actually letting anyone know the plan,
Caryn: not letting anyone know the plan.
Not letting anyone know that I was, I was saving you from a lot of stuff. I was saving everyone from a lot of stuff.
Heather: You think that? Yeah. You feel like, yeah.
Caryn: Yeah.
Heather: Like what?
Caryn: Like one thing comes to mind, we were late. We were rushing. Yeah. And we were probably yelling in the car and it was just pulling out of the driveway.
And then I think dad got upset and then like turned the steering wheel really fast and like our car. And because it was snowing and it was [00:31:00] icy, like I feel like our car like kind of slid Oh. Or something.
Heather: Was I there?
Caryn: Yeah, I think so. I feel like we were on our way to school or dance or something, uhhuh.
And then I think after that I was just like, everything's okay. Everything's okay. And just doing like little prayers to the universe. Oh, okay. And being like, we're gonna get to the place fine and everything's fine. Like this weird thing just happened, I've that, but
Heather: it's gonna
Caryn: be okay. So yeah, like a lot of like, I don't know.
Heather: Do you think that that started from the accident?
Caryn: Yeah, probably.
Heather: Yeah. We were in a pretty intense, sorry dad. We were in a pretty intense car accident when we were kids, and I, I, I was knocked out right away. The car like hit me and my dad's side.
Caryn: Yeah.
Heather: Karen was awake the whole time.
Caryn: The whole time. We flipped at least three times.
Heather: And what were you
Caryn: landed upside down?
Heather: What were you observing? When we were flipping the
Caryn: back of like, mom's seat, like I was just looking ahead at the back of the seat and it's just like, it's like I wasn't spinning, but everything else was spinning.
Heather: Yeah. Yeah.
Caryn: And just sort of like,
Heather: were you seeing glass and things?
Caryn: No.
Heather: Okay. Just mom's seat. And you were like, this is gonna end soon. Eventually,
Caryn: like, I felt so [00:32:00] still, like I wasn't like wobbling or anything and maybe I was just holding my body so fucking tight. Or maybe I was
Heather: Did you think you were dead?
Caryn: No.
Heather: Oh, okay. You were like, I've got this actually.
Caryn: Yeah. Yeah. Or like, not a lot of thoughts were going on, but I was just like, still
Heather: mm-hmm.
Caryn: And silent.
Heather: Well, we've talked about this recently, like
Caryn: upside down
Heather: in the past few years about all of this. Yeah. Like we landed upside down and then mom and dad, mom said, is everyone okay? And then we all responded.
Caryn: Mm-hmm.
Heather: And then who came to get me? Dad.
Caryn: Yeah.
Heather: And mom came to get you. Mm-hmm. And they just like unbuckled our seat belts and
Caryn: Well, I had enough time upside down thinking like, well one, I was like, all the stuff is on the ceiling.
Like there's CDs, there's pens.
Heather: Did you look, did you look over it?
Caryn: I think I just looked like up.
Heather: Okay.
Caryn: Which was down.
Heather: Yeah.
Caryn: Um, and then I was like, if I unbuckle, I fall. So what's a girl to do?
Heather: Okay. Very calm, very strange,
Caryn: very calm, very strange, very practical. Which I don't know that that's who I am naturally.
I'm not a practical [00:33:00] per well, am I? Maybe. I don't know. But like,
Heather: well, I think that's a trauma response,
Caryn: right? Yeah. Yeah. It was like, it wasn't like, is everyone alive or is everyone okay? But it was like seatbelt.
Heather: I was, um, how are we
Caryn: getting out?
Heather: I'm listening to this podcast, like right before you came over, I was listening to this podcast, um, uh, well, arm track expert with Dr.
Alex Khakis.
Caryn: Mm-hmm.
Heather: And she, um, she's a sex therapist and she's really cool. She listened to it, actually. But she was talking about how on nine 11 they were going through photos, like people were just taking photos of the whole, like when it was happening, and psychiatrists, psychologists, whatever, they, they looked at these photos and they were trying to.
Tell who from the photos, based on their faces, was gonna have PTSD from nine 11 mm. And they could tell who was dissociated and who was in it. Mm. And apparently if you were in it and like regulating your emotions Mm. And like fully present and reminding yourself to breathe and really knowing what was going on, you would not have the PTSD Mm.
Like [00:34:00] the life trauma. Mm-hmm. But if you were dissociating
Caryn: mm-hmm.
Heather: Basically it's like, because you're not processing in the moment your heightened state.
Caryn: Yeah.
Heather: And so when you come down from that, it's like thawing out. Yeah. And then you have to like, you don't remember necessarily what happened, you're just getting all these flashes.
Caryn: Mm-hmm.
Heather: And I'm wondering for you if like, I mean, you do have PTSD from the accident Way more so than me. 'cause I was.
Caryn: You were dissociating, but in a different way.
Heather: I don't even remember the crash. Like I don't remember the like Ron watch out. Like I don't remember any of that. I just remember being upside down and being very confused.
But that we talk about that and I like to bring that up because it is,
Caryn: you talk about it like a few times a year.
Heather: Yeah.
Caryn: Maybe like every three months or so.
Heather: Honestly, it is so crazy to just be like, and there's always something new that comes up, like
Caryn: mm-hmm.
Heather: When you were saying, you're like, I don't even really remember that day.
You were probably alone. Mm-hmm. Most of that day when we went to the hospital.
Caryn: Yeah.
Heather: You also like saw a lot of blood and glass and like,
Caryn: but I don't have a memory of that.
Heather: I know, but I'm imagining you as a kid, seeing your sister bleeding. Your mom is like, has to [00:35:00] go with me.
Caryn: Mm-hmm.
And
Heather: then dad who's like,
Caryn: I saw him like sitting down up against a wall.
Yeah. Like with the, the air or the breathing and I thought he was okay. Yeah. But I was like, but he's also not okay.
Heather: Right. And so you are now this person and you're like, I'm a child and I have to now manage myself and everything that's going on because I'm the only one here.
Caryn: I'm technically okay.
Heather: Yeah.
Caryn: Physically.
Heather: Yeah. You're, you're the only one here who like actually can
Caryn: Yeah.
Heather: And, and you might,
Caryn: I could stand and walk away if I wanted to
Heather: and you might. Yeah. And you might, you have to deal with the fact that you might be alone after this. Yeah. Like, you don't know. Right. Yeah. And, and you probably weren't even
Caryn: thinking that, which those thoughts weren't even happening, but it's like the body is kind of the body processing that, and it's just like being okay with the, the emptiness, the space.
Heather: Well, anthropologically your tribe was wiped out for a second, you don't know. Mm-hmm. So now you're in a situation where you're like, and I'm in fight or flight.
Caryn: So like we were talking at the beginning, like I do a lot of exhausting processing Yeah. In my body and like in the stressful [00:36:00] situations. Yeah.
It's like my body goes into overdrive. Mm-hmm. And like completely analyze a situation from like every corner that it has so that it's like I know all the like threat and fear and everything. And like,
Heather: yeah.
Caryn: Again, to go back to it, like that's the part that I'm trying to. It like it comes back up. I see it, and now it's like, okay, can I help this a little bit?
Heather: Do you think overall, growing up together, I made your life harder?
Caryn: No. Mm.
Heather: The way I see it is I made your life very hard all the time.
Caryn: Oh my God. No, I've never thought about that.
Heather: Really?
Caryn: Yeah.
Heather: Like I feel like I was very, you were very embarrassed by me as a kid.
Caryn: Oh, yeah.
Heather: Okay. Okay. Okay. So semantics.
Semantics. Yeah.
Caryn: Why would you embarrass me though? I mean, probably because you were very loud and very outgoing.
Heather: Yeah.
Caryn: But I've never thought of that as like, that made my life really hard. Like that phrase has never, that feeling has never existed.
Heather: Really. [00:37:00] Even when you had to yell at those boys in the parking lot at school, on my behalf.
Caryn: No. 'cause it's good for me to yell sometimes.
Heather: Yeah. You hate that story.
Caryn: Yeah, I don't wanna talk about
Heather: it. You hate it? Why do you hate it? Because you don't wanna feel like you stood up for your sister and be cringe.
Caryn: No, I don't even think it's that. It's just like, it's just a lot of, um,
Heather: chaos.
Caryn: It's a very, it was a very uncontrolled me.
Yeah. And I think, I don't like when I'm not in control,
Heather: it didn't feel out of control. It felt very in control actually.
Caryn: Sure.
Heather: I remember when we were kids, when we would get in trouble for like yelling or like, I don't know, doing whatever the fuck kids do. Mom would take our toys away.
Caryn: Mm-hmm.
Heather: And after the car accident, she gave all of our toys back.
And you had like five, I had like 50. She like dumped so many toys on me.
Caryn: Oh, I don't even remember that. I just remember there being like lots of toys. Abundance, but I don't remember that. Like I only had five or
Heather: something. Well, 'cause I remember you said like, oh my God, Heather's way worse than me. And I was like, yeah.
Caryn: Oh, I'm so sorry. I don't remember that.
Heather: We also like, did you [00:38:00] do this? I would go into mom's closet and like go and say hi to my toys that were in the basket. I
Caryn: definitely would see them.
Heather: Yeah.
Caryn: And I'm like, did I ever take them back? Probably not. I'd probably be too scared too.
Heather: Yeah. Mind you.
Caryn: But I would look at them.
Heather: Mind you, we were going into dad's closet and stealing his money all the time.
Caryn: Loonie and toonies. I'm like, you don't need these. I love change.
Heather: But mom would know. She would know. If we took an animal, she'd be like, excuse
Caryn: me. Yes. Yeah. I would never dare take a stuffy. But like loonie and toonies. Every other day.
Heather: Even being in mom's closet, I was like, I'm scared.
Caryn: Oh yeah, yeah. I'm like, I'm gonna be caught.
Heather: Yeah.
Caryn: But dad's little like baskets. I'm like, who cares?
Heather: Well, if you're gonna be loose with your change like that, we're going to take it and walk to Tim Horton's with $6.
Is there anything significant you've kind of learned about the way you were as a kid now that you've become an adult? Like anything like being closed off or being like introverted or scared or anxious?
Caryn: I think something that I've been thinking about, whether it's right or wrong or whatever, it's just how I feel.
I feel like my base [00:39:00] and foundation of how I was created is like fear based. Mm-hmm. Or like
Heather: anxiety
Caryn: and anxiety based and then like caution anxiety. So I feel like I approach everything. Super cautiously. And then like just take like a skiing. Like what you like a skiing? Oh, ski skiing. Like I feel like that's a nice like metaphor, like physical, great metaphor, physical interpretation of like how we approach our lives.
That it's like I'm going to go super slow and I'm gonna do the technique and I'm gonna do the turns or the pizza. And if I fall a little, I'm really fucking scared because like, I feel like I lose a year of life every time my skis cross. Yeah. Like I'm just terrified.
Heather: Yes.
Caryn: Which maybe you feel the same, like you also have the fear, but at the same time you're bombing down the hill.
And also like rolling, like I have a perfect image of you just like somersaulting halfway down the hill. And we're like, is she alive?
Heather: You're like that. That is why I'm cautious right there.
Caryn: Yeah. And like maybe because of you I got even more cautious. Like I [00:40:00] feel like our stuff pulls us together and also pushes us apart.
Like I would never bomb a hill. Or if I would, it was like there's a clear path. The hill's not that steep. I'm gonna have a little fun. Woo-hoo.
Heather: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But
Caryn: then I fucking did that on a bike and then like flipped myself off the bike. Had a massive bruise on my leg and I'm like, oh, so this is why we don't do the crazy things.
Heather: The back of the bike came over and hit you in the head.
Caryn: I did like a, like a scorpion.
Heather: You did a S. Yes, it. That is my favorite story.
Caryn: It's ter and I'm like, this is why I'm careful. I mean, thank God I'm a dancer. 'cause I feel like I was able to like catch myself with my hands, bend my elbows, but there was a lot of speed.
And that bike just like. The most back bend that I've ever experienced in my life. And I was like, thank you spinal extension. I will never do this to you again.
Heather: You're like, now I have to be in Pilates every day for the next two years to realign my spine.
Caryn: Yeah. Yeah.
Heather: It's so crazy. This is why we don't do outdoor sports.
Okay. So I would say like our relationship was like pretty intense. Like, well, [00:41:00] it was just a lot.
Caryn: Yeah, I think so too.
Heather: Until you moved out.
Caryn: Yes.
Heather: And went to college.
Caryn: Yeah.
Heather: And I, I feel like our relationship got better when you moved out. Like we were FaceTiming all the time. I don't remember if like your first years when we got closer, but
Caryn: yeah.
I think it probably started like. Yeah.
Heather: I kind of wanna know, because for me, with school, that's when mental health issues started to form around me. Mm. And like within me. Mm. Like I was seeing it a lot at school. Like we both went to different dance conservator. Mm-hmm. Karen went to, well, what's it called now?
Caryn: Toronto Metropolitan University.
Heather: Yeah. Previously. TMU Ryerson.
Caryn: Mm-hmm.
Heather: And I went to Boston Conservatory, and I feel like that first year, that's when I was like, oh, eating disorder, alcoholism, cooking. Like you were
Caryn: seeing it everywhere.
Heather: Yeah.
Caryn: Mm.
Heather: Were you seeing it?
Caryn: No.
Heather: Okay.
Caryn: It's not that it wasn't happening. Yeah. I [00:42:00] just didn't see it. I didn't talk about it or people weren't talking to me about it. Again, I think I'm a, a closed book.
Heather: Yeah.
Caryn: I don't invite a lot in.
Heather: Okay.
Caryn: I feel like I'm not a, a warm, I think I'm warm, but I also. I think people don't see me and are like, that's the person I'm gonna talk to about all the things.
I think I'm getting better at that. Yeah. I think that is me now more.
Heather: Well you become
Caryn: that person, but that was not me at school. Like
Heather: Yeah. You become that person when you're willing to share as well. Like if you
Caryn: Yeah.
Heather: That's why everyone tells me their trauma because I am a walking trauma sign. Mm-hmm. So like people are like, oh, that one's great.
Caryn: Yeah.
Heather: Yeah.
Caryn: Yeah.
Heather: So do you don't remember seeing anyone get like super thin or anyone talking about it?
Caryn: Um, I knew that like, teachers were like telling us that if we were hungry we should drink tea. Yeah. And I knew that teachers in like the private or the. The interviews were telling people that they need to lose weight.
Oh, really? Or they need to like work on their lisp or they need to like,
Heather: oh,
Caryn: have sex and like saying all that kind of stuff. [00:43:00] Really? Yeah.
Heather: Did they say that to you?
Caryn: Not to me.
Heather: A ballet teacher said that to me.
Caryn: Mm-hmm.
Heather: She, 'cause I was a virgin. Mm-hmm. Wait, that's so funny. I didn't know that.
Caryn: No, it's a crazy dance thing to say.
They're like, you're gonna open up more. Yes. As like a modern dancer when you open your legs and it's like,
Heather: yeah. A ballet teacher told me that essentially that,
Caryn: yeah.
Heather: She was like, you.
Caryn: And it's like, I understand it, but I also hate that I understand it because that's not like we're young. We're 18, 19, 20, 21.
Yeah. Like that's a fucking crazy thing to say. Like, let people be Yeah. Let us be like newly teenager adults. Like
Heather: I think it was like, I think, well
Caryn: they just wanna rush you to the like, we just need your contractions to be much more real
Heather: orgasmic.
Caryn: Yeah.
Heather: Yeah. They dancers.
Caryn: It's gram
Heather: dancers really do think that like if you're a whore, you're a better dancer.
Caryn: And it's like. No,
Heather: I do wanna know, like when you started to notice that I was getting weird with stuff.
Caryn: The two kind of [00:44:00] moments were when I visited you in New York and you had just like a bunch of empty wine bottles all around your bed. Mm-hmm. And but also I'm like, you're a messy person, so it could just be that or, and I didn't talk about it.
I didn't bring it up. It was also like, Hey, I'm here visiting and like. You didn't
Heather: clean up.
Caryn: You've got your trash all over the place.
Yeah.
Caryn: So it might have even been more of a thought of like, you could have put them somewhere else, like even on a table.
Heather: I bet you my house was way messier. And then when, by the time you got
Caryn: there, it was
like
Heather: cleaner.
It
Caryn: was, yes. I believe that. Um, and maybe that was even something that we talked about, so it, I don't even know so
Heather: much about it. Well, there was a picture on my Instagram mm-hmm. Where like you took of me sitting on my mattress on the floor. Oh
Caryn: yeah,
Heather: yeah. With like junk all around. Yeah. And you wrote like a mess in her mess.
Caryn: Yeah.
Heather: But this is,
Caryn: oh yeah. I think I've archived that since, but I think it was on my Instagram.
Heather: Yeah.
Caryn: So that was just like a, and, and maybe it was just like, this is a mess. But I'm like, but this is a wine bottle mess.
Heather: Yeah. But you didn't think like, oh, she's drinking [00:45:00] too much.
Caryn: No.
Heather: Yeah, she's just messy.
Caryn: She's just messy.
Heather: And then, what was the other time?
Caryn: But then it's like a, looking back at it, it's like, oh yeah, maybe that was the first time that I clocked something that I was like. Yeah, this
Heather: is
Caryn: maybe a problem.
Heather: Ooh,
Caryn: ooh.
Heather: Hope she grows out of it.
Caryn: Yeah. Hopefully she learns. I mean, you're, I mean, your cleanliness has come such a long way.
Heather: Thank you so much. Mm-hmm. But yeah, but we were saying that I've set myself up now in a situation where like people are in and out of my house a little more.
Caryn: Yeah. So you have to
Heather: like, Zoe's here every week. So I do have to clean at least every Saturday I'm manically clean, but now it's been like I had a man over the other day and then I had a man over last week and now you're here.
Caryn: And so you gotta be clean. I haven't been here for a year. I haven't been allowed.
Heather: How do you feel?
Caryn: It's great.
Heather: Thank you. You like my house? I do. Do you like my little studio?
Caryn: I do.
Heather: It's cute.
Caryn: Um. And then the other one was when we, so earlier than that, probably like three or four years before
Heather: 20, yeah. 2013.
Probably after the new year.
Caryn: Yeah. When we visited you in Boston. And I was like, oh, that's a [00:46:00] very skinny person.
Heather: Mm-hmm.
Caryn: But again, not enough for me to like ask or worry, but just kind of notice,
Heather: I remember that visit, we were comparing our abs in the mirror.
Caryn: Oh, were we?
Heather: Yeah. And you being like, oh my God. And I was like, yeah, I just drink a lot of water.
Mm-hmm. And I was like, I haven't eaten in days.
Caryn: Mm-hmm.
Heather: Like, and that was, you guys came down for performance day.
Caryn: Yeah.
Heather: So I probably hadn't eaten yet that day.
Caryn: Mm-hmm. '
Heather: cause I wouldn't eat until we went to the Cheesecake Factory after and we would get cheesecake and tea and go and sit in the hotel. Mm-hmm.
And that's what we would do. So I didn't eat that whole day.
I think like a big question for people, siblings, family members is like, did you know? What did you know? And how were you. A feeling about it? Like when did you know it was a problem?
Caryn: Maybe during COVID.
Heather: Yeah.
Caryn: But again, it's kind of like, I, I did not, I honestly, no. Like I feel like I know it was a problem [00:47:00] like post rehab and then the more you shared with me about it.
Heather: Okay, okay.
Caryn: Um, because it's kind of like, I don't actually know how much you're drinking.
Heather: Mm-hmm.
Caryn: I don't know. When you start drinking, I know that you come over and then we will drink like a bottle or two and you're gonna drink much more than me.
Heather: Mm-hmm.
Caryn: But again, it's kind of like, I don't know how much you had during the day.
I'm not kind of thinking that you were drinking before then.
Heather: Okay.
Caryn: Um, or maybe a little bit, but maybe only started in like at like 5:00 PM or something like a, um,
Heather: but I was
Caryn: also a quotes, appropriate time to start having a drink. Like Sure. I was
Heather: also gaining a lot of weight.
Caryn: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, would that not have been related to like 10?
I mean, it's probably like relationship, I was gonna say COVID, but yeah, it's like,
Heather: oh well,
Caryn: COVID relationship and COVID and work and everything and just like, then you got Nike. Um, yeah,
Heather: but I was bad before that. Like I was drinking a lot when I worked at Auria and then, and then I was drinking a lot when I worked at Holt and I was walking home with alcohol.
Caryn: Mm-hmm. Then,
Heather: but
Caryn: when it's gradual, like it is hard to see. Yeah. It's kind of [00:48:00] like, I know you've gained weight, but I don't know that it's from all the drinking, but then afterwards it's like, of course it's like so much sugar and so much like probably just eating anything that feel like, I don't know if you were eating a lot or not eating a lot.
Like I don't, yeah.
Heather: Yeah.
Caryn: Um, but it does feel like almost like a little bit of like a. A whiplash from like denying so much of yourself before and now it's like now you're giving into all the indulgence.
Heather: Mm-hmm.
Caryn: I mean, I don't know that that's how it works really, but it does feel like, yes, you were drinking before, but you weren't eating before, and now it's like you're drinking even more and now eating more.
And it's like,
Heather: yeah, well it's like just like a worthlessness feeling. It's like if I'm gonna starve myself for who? For what? Like I hate myself, I might as well
Caryn: eat and drink. Yeah. And there's like, and without dance and without a healthy relationship, it's like, who the fuck am I skinny for?
Heather: Yeah. Uh, this is when our relationship, I feel like, started to get really hard for me because you were like effortlessly thin.
Caryn: Mm-hmm.
Heather: You weren't hungry, and I couldn't [00:49:00] figure out why it was so, why me? It was. Mm-hmm. I was so pissed off at your genetics and that was really, it really pissed me off. Mm-hmm. That, that wasn't your hardship.
Caryn: No.
Heather: And you were thin. I was killing myself. I was so exhausted. I was so depressed.
Caryn: Mm-hmm.
Heather: I was starving.
Caryn: Yeah.
Heather: And then I would see you, I
Caryn: think I was starving too. Yeah. But I think like, and not
Heather: mentally,
Caryn: no.
Heather: Yeah.
Caryn: Just like tummy
Heather: and you're more hungry when you're thinking about it. And I was thinking about it all day long.
Caryn: Yeah. It wasn't the thought, it wasn't the thing that was like keeping me up or motivating me or running me.
Heather: Yeah.
Caryn: I
Heather: mean, it got easier to handle you being so thin when I was drinking though.
Caryn: Mm-hmm.
Heather: Because it was just like, you being thin affected self worth. Mm-hmm. You know? Mm-hmm. And like things being easy. And I don't actually mean things were easy for you because I know you went through a whole thing, but
Caryn: No, it's just interesting to hear your side of it.
Heather: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Caryn: Because yeah, it, it like, I mean it's, it's more difficult now. I'm surprised that I didn't think about it, [00:50:00] but I also think that that was a way that my body knew how to function. But like, I think I had headaches a lot. Yeah. Like I think I probably felt like lightheaded a lot, especially if I was doing like
Heather: You were also a bitch.
Caryn: I was also a bitch. Yeah, probably. 'cause I was fucking hungry.
Heather: You were hungry. Yeah. That's
Caryn: true. Honestly. So it's kind of like that, but that's not something I ever would've connected that it's like, I'm hungry so I'm bitchy. But it's like. Yeah, I'm hungry because your brain can't really function without like Yeah.
Food and nourishment, no. And everything. So,
Heather: yeah. But if your role in life was to be like, I have to remember these dances and I have to be the best, that's all I actually have to do.
Caryn: Yeah.
Heather: Then we're gonna figure out a way to make it work. And you did. You know?
Caryn: Yeah. Yeah.
Heather: It's crazy. Were you ever worried about me?
Caryn: I don't think I'm worried long term
Heather: Uhhuh
Caryn: again, because if I didn't ex, not to say I didn't experience things that were challenging, but I wasn't connected to it. So if I don't know what's going on with myself and my body, that I don't really know what's going on with you and I don't know
Heather: Yeah.
Caryn: What to ask or what to check in with, and I [00:51:00] don't know how bad something is.
So, no, I don't think I actually worried like,
Heather: well, and mind you just,
Caryn: and I honestly, I feel like it feels bad, but it's like I don't even feel bad that it's like I should have said something. I'm like, I didn't know. Like,
Heather: no, no, no, no. And I don't think you
Caryn: should feel bad. It kind of sucks that I'm like, oh, I didn't know.
But it's also like I didn't know, and it's a me thing, but it's also a you thing hiding stuff. Yeah, but it's also, it's, I have a, I am, I'm very disconnected to like.
Heather: I don't even know if it's that. I mean, yes, I do feel like
Caryn: it's a part of it.
Heather: Yeah. I feel like you're pretty good at dissociating or like compartmentalizing things.
Caryn: Mm-hmm.
Heather: But like for reference, Karen and I lived, we lived in the same building. We lived like a few floors and we would see each other a lot. Mm-hmm. Either we would FaceTime probably every day or we would take Nike out. So you did see me? Mm-hmm. And also all those walks we were going on, I was drunk.
Caryn: But you'd usually like, you'd not usually, but I feel like you would bring wine and you'd bring me a can of wine and I was like, great.
Oh
Heather: yes, I would do that.
Caryn: Yeah.
Heather: Yeah, yeah. 'cause I didn't want,
Caryn: there was a bit of including in it.
Heather: Yeah. 'cause it's easier than, you can't judge me because you have a treat too. [00:52:00]
Caryn: And I don't know if I judged you maybe a little bit. I didn't judge you for the, for drinking. Okay. But maybe if you did something that was a little bit like,
Heather: like what?
Like in Italy,
Caryn: I don't remember anything in Italy that you would've
Heather: done something that
Caryn: was embarrassing.
Heather: Oh, okay.
I
Caryn: was very drunk. I don't know if you like fell down.
Heather: Did it ever fall down?
Caryn: Not in Italy, but when would you like
Heather: at the park.
Caryn: Yeah, maybe.
Heather: Yeah.
Caryn: Again, I have no specific like situation, but maybe if you did something that was a little bit more like
Heather: Yeah.
Caryn: Tipsy or something, but you weren't really like, yeah. You were kind of the same.
Heather: Well, yeah. 'cause at that point when I was like drinking before, like I would drink before we would meet up. Like
Caryn: you're very functional.
Heather: Well, the, the 4:00 PM the four 30 walks mm-hmm. With Nike to the dog park. I was drunk. Yeah.
All, every single time, every day. Mm-hmm. 'cause I would been drink, but I would drink like from the morning to then I would have like two bottles of wine. So then by four I was kind of okay. Mm-hmm. And then I would drink again.
Caryn: Yeah. It's more hearing about it afterwards. Like the amount you drank when you drank, and it's like, oh yeah.
Like I could, I could have been worried for those things. Yeah. Or like, and [00:53:00] then you kind of give me information in pieces too. And then it's like, oh, and then I like did these drugs and I got these drugs from my neighbor and all this stuff. And I was like, oh my God. Like that's getting a little far.
Heather: Yeah.
Caryn: It's like, okay. I
Heather: feel, well it's weird because like. I think that now, like you pretty much know everything. I think
Caryn: so.
Heather: And, and stuff like that. Like at the end when I was like buying Oxy from my neighbor, I didn't wanna tell you because I wasn't trying to hide it. It was just so, like, it's over now, and it's like disappointing.
And so that kind of thing, I was like, ugh. Mm-hmm. They know I'm an alcoholic, but they don't know that I'm also like doing other scary things. Mm-hmm. Which by the way, I think the sex I was having was way scarier.
Caryn: Mm.
Heather: But, but I, I, I just wanna like reiterate the point that like, we lived very closely. Mm-hmm.
We saw each other almost every day. Mm-hmm. I was like physically changing.
Caryn: Yeah.
Heather: But there's something that doesn't allow the family members to get in there. Mm-hmm. Sometimes it's also hard. What are you going to say to me? I'm also mental, like, I've been mental since I was a kid, so I fly off the handle [00:54:00] sometimes.
Mm-hmm. And you don't want to, we had such a good relationship. Mm-hmm. You don't wanna maybe fuck it up if that's like subconsciously what you're thinking, but just to say. You could be living in the same house as somebody and not know. Mm-hmm.
Caryn: And you didn't seem like that different as a person.
Heather: Mm-hmm.
Caryn: Maybe like I, but I also at the same time think that you're like a lot different now.
Heather: Yeah.
Caryn: So, but again, it's like the gradual, it's like the seeing you a little bit every day and not really kind of seeing the
Heather: Well and mind you
Caryn: like full picture
Heather: I was drinking so that I could be happy. Mm-hmm. So that I could exist in the world.
Mm-hmm. So like I wouldn't have
Caryn: Yeah. You show up as like the happy person.
Heather: Yeah. I wouldn't see I've seen you at all.
Caryn: Mm-hmm.
Heather: If I wasn't drinking
Caryn: and it had been a long time, like pre, 'cause I would say like the COVID or maybe 2019 was kind of like your turn into
Heather: Well yeah, that's when it
Caryn: got, or darkness.
Heather: Yeah.
Caryn: Like I think I was used to you having like dark days.
Heather: Yeah.
Caryn: Which I'd be annoyed. I'd be like, why can't you just like get up and we can hang out? But like, yeah. I feel like I understand depression a little bit more now.
Heather: Yeah.
Caryn: I was already used to that being a [00:55:00] part of you.
Heather: Right.
Caryn: That it's like, what's the difference?
There is a big difference, but like Yeah.
Heather: I wonder, did you ever think like
Caryn: all the bathtub drinking was a lot?
Heather: Oh, I love bathtub drinking. I would do that every single day. I would take like
Caryn: a
Heather: three hour bath. Yeah. And just drink two bottles of wine. Yeah. And be so fucked in the
Caryn: time. But even then, like you'd FaceTime me in the bath with your wine and I was like this because it's normal.
Heather: Yeah.
Caryn: When you do it a lot. So it's like,
Heather: yeah. It was so normal and it made sense. Especially during COVID too. I was like, well, what the fuck else are we supposed to do? Like the world is ending. Yeah. People are dying. I'm obviously gonna drink in the tub.
Caryn: But it did also make sense when you said like, I need to go.
Like you called me and you're like, well, you cried and you asked if I was mad at you that you needed to go to rehab. And I'm like, I'm not mad. I'm somehow not shocked. But at the same time, I didn't see this coming.
Heather: Yeah.
Caryn: So it was a lot of like. But again, I feel like when people meet me with like a lot of emotion and energy, sometimes I get pretty like neutral.
Heather: You're not great when I call you crying. [00:56:00]
Caryn: No.
Heather: Well, you're not, you're not bad. It's just I feel like you're like, oh
Caryn: no, I, I like, I like shut down a little bit.
Heather: Yeah. But I think it was a great conversation. I don't like fully remember it 'cause I was wasted. But also, but I was
Caryn: like, I'm not mad. Go do it.
Get
Heather: it.
Caryn: Yeah. This is
Heather: good. Did you, why, why didn't you see it coming? What did you think was gonna happen?
Caryn: I thought you were probably just gonna sustain whatever it was you were doing. Like again, because I didn't think it was as bad as then You told me later, like now knowing, it's like if you kept going that direction, it's like, oh right.
That would've been really bad.
Heather: How large would I have had to be before you said something?
Caryn: I don't know. I should have said something to you.
Heather: No. What were you gonna say? Yeah. Oh, you're fat.
Caryn: No,
Heather: then I would've like gone and drank
Caryn: so much more. Well, yeah. Yeah. So it's, it's. I would never say anything like that.
So it's,
Heather: would you have ever said anything about the drinking, ever?
Caryn: I don't know.
Heather: Well, how did you feel when I was in rehab?
Caryn: Good.
Heather: Okay. Like you were like, okay, that's good. She's getting help.
Caryn: Yeah. [00:57:00] Yeah. I think we talked a lot. We probably talked every day. I'm sure. Did we FaceTime every day?
Heather: Maybe not every day.
Caryn: Maybe not every day, but
Heather: especially when I started to get busy with the boy.
Caryn: Yeah, yeah. Which, I don't know if you told me about,
Heather: I did. I told
Caryn: you did. But you, you hold information.
Heather: I held all the info, but I told you all that night. Like, I, I first started telling you about this guy I met and like mm-hmm.
What was going on with him. Mm-hmm. And then
Caryn: I think that was kind of like, I was a little bit annoyed. Oh, were you? Well, 'cause it's like you've, and maybe it's the reasons why you're, and, and I'm extrapolating
Heather: uhhuh
Caryn: of why you're also could be, why you also could be annoyed with me. Of, I'm like, you're doing this thing for you.
Yeah. And you're trying to take care of you. And then this other person comes in and then it's just like, 'cause we're kind of the same. I mean, are we the same? Maybe we're the same. Where like our focus can go really like intense
Heather: Yeah.
Caryn: On someone.
Heather: Oh my God, I'll give up my whole life for someone.
Caryn: Exactly [00:58:00] same.
So it's like if you understand that for yourself, like you can understand that for me.
Heather: Okay. You were like worried that I was like putting all this energy into him and not me.
Caryn: Yeah,
Heather: yeah,
Caryn: yeah. Or it's like, is that the right thing to do? And it's like,
Heather: probably not.
Caryn: But also does it matter what's right or is there actually a right or wrong?
I don't know.
Heather: Yeah. I mean, at the end of the day I'm so worried. But in the
Caryn: moment I like was definitely annoyed.
Heather: But that's one of, but that's one of those things that like, I can, I also know that what I was doing was wrong or like wrong in whatever sense, and maybe not the most healthy.
Caryn: Mm-hmm.
Heather: But, but like.
I needed to do it to figure it out. Mm-hmm. It's the same, I'm like so fucking annoyed with you and your choices, but
Caryn: it's like, maybe I need to do some
Heather: stuff to
Caryn: figure it out and like,
Heather: yeah.
Caryn: Is it the thing that at the end of the day, like I'm gonna be in it forever and ever? I don't know.
Heather: Mm-hmm.
Caryn: But there is something for me to figure out through this.
Heather: I think that You believe that.
Caryn: I think, I believe that.
Heather: I think that the closure for [00:59:00] you would either be marriage or death. I genuinely think that those are your like real closures. Yeah. Other than that, you guys just break up again. It's gonna be like, why? Mm-hmm. Why didn't I, why wasn't I good enough? How do you feel like our relationship has changed since I've gotten sober?
Or do you feel like it's changed?
Caryn: Yeah, I think it's changed. This is not so much our relationship, but I think that you are funnier.
Heather: Oh.
Caryn: Yeah.
Heather: I thought I was so funny when I was drinking.
Caryn: No.
Heather: Oh,
Caryn: I think it did. It took a turn at some point where I was like, oh, you're actually not that funny anymore. You're just
Heather: drunk
Caryn: because you've always been funny.
Mm. And then it was like, yeah, you're funny, funny, funny. And then I'm like, oh, it's not like, it wasn't cl like your humor wasn't clever. Your humor wasn't like, and sorry, I'm being rude. No, it's okay. Rude to you. But that's, maybe, that's when I also started to like notice a bit of a turn where I was like, oh, like, it's just,
Heather: it's not great.
Um, do you, do you trust me in my sobriety,
Caryn: like to stay? What do you mean?
Heather: Like right now, like, do you trust that I'm sober? Do you trust me when I'm say I'm sober? [01:00:00] Like, yeah. Have you trusted me these past two years?
Caryn: Yeah.
Heather: Okay. Have you, you've questioned it.
Caryn: I've asked you, I think, and I forget when I would've asked
Heather: you.
I wasn't texting you back.
Caryn: Yeah. Yeah. Maybe you were just being a little bit like weird or off, and then I just asked just to like check in.
Heather: I think I was like going,
Caryn: but I haven't asked that much.
Heather: No, you just asked once. Yeah. And I feel like that was it. Like you asked, I said no. Yeah. And then I was like, honestly, no, I'm just depressed.
But when I get depressed mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I am addict, like I mm-hmm.
Caryn: I
Heather: just like, don't wanna talk to anybody. I don't wanna like, have a conversation. I just wanna like sit in my room and then like, drink a bunch of poppy and leave them everywhere.
Caryn: Yeah. No, I trust you. And I also trust that either one, you'll tell me, or two, you'll know what to do, that you'll want to
Heather: mm-hmm.
Caryn: Go back to your work or a rehab or a something. Mm-hmm. Like I, and I also trust that I can say something about it at that point. Point too. Yeah. And it's like, you've already opened this door so that I can be like, Hey,
Heather: and obviously like
Caryn: you don't want this. Right.
Heather: Right. And
Caryn: like
Heather: in the
Caryn: moment I can, I feel like I can say something.
Now,
Heather: and you probably [01:01:00] should.
Caryn: Yeah. I think it, it's responsible of me now to say something before I didn't know. So it's like,
Heather: yeah,
Caryn: it's not quite my responsibility, but I think now it would be. But
Heather: we've already
Caryn: been,
Heather: if I knew and we've been through this thing, and we already know that like sobriety is better for me and I can't, like you objectively know that now that I actually as a person cannot drink.
Mm-hmm. Or I go crazy. Mm-hmm. And I've told you that too. Yeah. It's like you, I don't want to drink, and if in the moment I'm telling you I wanna drink, oh, well of course I want to drink, but that's not what I want my life.
Caryn: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Heather: But yeah, I think that that's probably gotten easier, like calling me out on stuff, you know?
Yeah.
What do you think is the most different thing about me now that I'm sober?
Caryn: You want it to be about how you look?
Heather: No, it can be anything.
Caryn: I think like a, like you are still the same, I feel like more clear, I mean. No, you do worry me with your yelling, but I also feel like,
Heather: oh, my yelling in pub, [01:02:00] in public,
Caryn: you're yelling in public.
Heather: I only do that when I'm going through like a manic episode, and that hasn't really happened since October.
Caryn: But I do feel like you're much more reflective and able to, Hmm. Sorry. I'm bad at,
Heather: I haven't changed at all. Apparently the closest
Caryn: she lived, I'm bad at being nice.
Heather: The closest person to me. I mean, do you feel like you got your sister back?
Caryn: Yeah.
Heather: Okay.
Caryn: Yeah.
Heather: Say it.
Caryn: I feel like I got my sister
Heather: back. She hates me. She fucking hates me. Do you wanna go back to talking about your shit relationship?
Caryn: No. I feel like you know what you want and you're gonna go for it. Mm. Right. Like, and that can change. And that's what I think I mean about the reflecting too.
Like you know what you want and you're going for the thing and you put a lot of effort and energy into it, but it definitely feels like you're much more in control.
Heather: Mm-hmm.
Caryn: Even though sometimes you're a little out of control,
Heather: well, I'm still me,
Caryn: but you're still you. So that's still you.
I'm
Heather: still a girl.
Caryn: But then you're [01:03:00] like, you, um, I just feel like you can see things better.
Heather: Mm-hmm. Yeah. That was like my hope in getting sober if I was like, uh, didn't wanna get sober because I was like, I don't have anything. I was like pretending to do real estate.
Caryn: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that, that felt a little bit more like wishy-washy of like, I'm just trying to pick a thing that like makes sense that I've got friends that do this.
And just trying to like, put yourself in somewhere. Yeah. Put yourself somewhere. Insert yourself somewhere and kind of hope for the best. But it's like you didn't really like it, you didn't enjoy it, it wasn't making you happy, but now you're like following your happiness and that can change. And you're perfectly fine with changing it too.
Heather: Yeah.
Caryn: I kind of just go with the flow. I like, I do put myself in a position that I like and then I just kind of like. Let's just keep riding this wave and hopefully the right jobs and the things and the people will come towards me and I feel like it does where mm-hmm. I feel like you're making more like linear choices of like, I'm gonna do this great.
I got enough from, I'm gonna do this. Great. I got enough from it. I'm gonna,
Heather: I don't have anything though, right? Like, I have to do that. Like, I have to choose a thing. Well,
Caryn: it [01:04:00] starts with nothing.
Heather: Yeah. Yeah. But I just had nothing for so long and like when I was getting sober, I was like, oh, fuck me, I don't wanna get sober.
Caryn: Then you fill your nothingness with like drinking and numbing and all of that. So,
Heather: and
that's
Caryn: why it's been nice to like take all of that away and then it's like, oh, well what do you want? What do you like? What makes you happy?
Heather: Yeah. And like, thank God it's this.
Caryn: Mm-hmm. That
Heather: was really fucking scary.
Mm-hmm. I was like, I'm going to school. I better like addicts, which I do. You're my favorite, but like,
Caryn: yeah,
Heather: the addicts aren't you, but
Caryn: I know
Heather: like, oh God, I just feel so much better. Whatever happens with this podcast, honestly, I have such high hopes and like, I just feel really good about it. But it just feels so good to have come from something like dance where that's our whole life.
Caryn: Mm-hmm.
Heather: And then like drop off.
Mm-hmm.
Heather: And be like, well, passion and talent and heart and love is gone.
Caryn: Mm-hmm.
Heather: And now I'm just a person and I have to find something to do.
Caryn: Mm-hmm.
Heather: And like coming from a love like that.
Caryn: And this doesn't feel like, like you're finding [01:05:00] something to do. You're just like, this is what I want to do.
Heather: I feel like I'm being me. Yeah. And then just doing that.
Caryn: Yeah.
Heather: In like a cool way.
Caryn: Yeah. In a very cool way.
Heather: Thank you. Cool. And hot.
Caryn: Cool. And hot.
Heather: Do you have any advice for siblings of addicts?
Caryn: Again, something I have not thought about.
Heather: Yeah, that's okay.
Caryn: Um,
Heather: I didn't, uh, prep her with any of these questions. I just kind of wanted to know what you were thinking on the spot.
Caryn: Mm-hmm.
Heather: Someone comes to you and they're like, oh, I feel like my sister, my brother is like drinking way too much, and I just don't even know what to do. And they look crazy.
Caryn: I know. It's like, what would be the thing? Would it be like maybe trying to like, bring it up mm-hmm. Um, in a safe way?
Heather: Yeah.
Caryn: Um, just to see it's like, are you aware of what's going on?
Have you even thought about what you're doing or what's going on? Um, because yeah, I think, I mean, I think we've figured out that it's like, I can't tell you what to do. I'm not gonna be like, you need to go to rehab. Yeah. It's like, um, but [01:06:00] just probably being a safe space to chat about. It's like, I see you, I see these things.
Maybe not being, I don't know, you don't wanna be too harsh or anything, but it's just like, these are things that I'm noticing. These are things that I'm seeing. Yeah. Do you feel this way? Or how do you feel about it? Do you mm-hmm. Go to therapy? Do you talk to anyone? Do you have anyone like, just like opening up the space?
Heather: Yeah.
Caryn: If that's something that's already there, great. Or mm-hmm.
Heather: If
Caryn: it hasn't, I think just if I came to you. And so like, I'm noticing that like you're drinking a little bit more, um, I don't know, like, how are you feeling about that? Or just kind of like opening up the floor a little bit? Yeah. Like we never had like alcohol conversations.
Mm-hmm. So if I were to do that, how do you think you would?
Heather: I think if you had asked me that in that moment, I probably would've lied.
Caryn: Yeah.
Heather: And done a thing to like get away from it or be like, oh, you know what, like I definitely am drinking too much. Mm-hmm. And I've noticed it, and I feel a little dependent on it.
I would've talked around the situation mm-hmm. To make you feel as safe as possible so that I [01:07:00] could keep doing my shit. Mm-hmm. However, knowing that, you know mm-hmm. Or knowing that you are there. Is nice.
Caryn: Yeah. Yeah.
Heather: So I think, and that's all you can do. You couldn't have told me anything. You couldn't take my alcohol.
I truly wasn't ready. But knowing and, and being able to call you about going to rehab was like probably the best sit, the best case scenario.
Caryn: Mm-hmm.
Heather: Because like, you knew you were gonna be there for me, you were gonna call me.
Caryn: Mm-hmm.
Heather: But it wasn't this like overly emotional, you weren't mad at me for drinking you.
Caryn: Mm-hmm.
Heather: Maybe some people would be more worried if they like mm-hmm. You know, if they weren't as good as hiding it as me. Mm-hmm. But like, um, yeah, I feel like just being there and like, like you said, like being a safe space. Like, I knew that if like this shit was gonna have to burn down, you would be there.
Caryn: Yeah. And I think if I had some other experience with it, like say like with a friend or something mm-hmm. Then maybe I could speak to it a little bit more.
Heather: Mm-hmm.
Caryn: But because you're like, my first experience of [01:08:00]
Heather: addiction.
Caryn: Addiction, yeah. And like needing to be sober.
Heather: Yeah. I guess. Yeah.
Caryn: Um. Like, I didn't deal with anything.
Like, I was just like, but I didn't come at you. I didn't attack you. Or like say like, you're drinking too much. This is bad. Like, I'm glad that I never like attacked you for it. I'm glad
Heather: too. And,
Caryn: but also if I could add a little bit, like, it's like just having like a little conversation of like, I see you.
Yeah. I don't know if it's the best, but like, I like trust or whatever. And like, please just make good decisions for yourself. Like if I could have had a little bit of that, I think that would be, because maybe you would've come to something sooner or maybe you would've just been able to reflect on it differently.
Like maybe it just would've,
Heather: yeah.
Caryn: Again, like you said, it's like someone sees this, it's not just me hiding it. Yeah. So, but I don't think that was available to me too.
Heather: No, of course it wasn't. And yeah.
Caryn: See or say that,
Heather: right. And now just in retrospect, like this is the point, right? Mm-hmm. Like you can, what you would've done, what would've, and nothing you would've done, would've been good or bad.
Like I think everyone who has a family member that's like, or a friend that's dealing with addiction, the way [01:09:00] you react to it, especially the first time is. It's fine.
Caryn: Yeah.
Heather: It happens. Even if you screamed at me in my face, like,
Caryn: yeah,
Heather: we would've had a conversation about it after. But like I understand people's reactions to things and it's a difficult situation sometimes when you were dealing with someone who's an addict and I was drinking alcohol.
Maybe if you saw like, you know, needle marks in my arms.
Caryn: I was gonna say like if I noticed or saw something like much more what I would think as not to say that the amount of that you were drinking wasn't dangerous, I just didn't know the amount. Yeah. But if it was more clear to me Yeah. And if you were doing, or if I knew you were doing dangerous things Yeah.
Or I saw that you were doing dangerous things, like maybe then I would've stepped in a little bit more. Mm-hmm. In my version aggressively. Yeah. Of just like, this is not okay.
Heather: Mm-hmm.
Caryn: Um,
Heather: I think,
Caryn: but again, I don't know.
Heather: I heard it might have even been on Dak Shepherd's podcast, or maybe handsome, I don't know.
But they were saying, someone was saying that like. Letting someone know that, you know about their [01:10:00] addiction kind of takes the pressure off of them a little bit. Mm, mm-hmm. Because sometimes, like the feeling of having to be a sneak
Caryn: mm-hmm.
Heather: Is enough to make you wanna drink.
Caryn: Mm-hmm.
Heather: And like then if there's a person that like, you don't have to hide it, then there's like that, a little less pressure, a little less guilt.
Caryn: Mm-hmm.
Heather: So maybe that would be helpful. It
Caryn: was just, it was just like once,
Heather: like I think just
Caryn: to,
Heather: it just sad. Yeah. Yeah. It was just sad that like, I knew I was looking so bad. I knew I felt horrible, and then I was putting on this performance for everyone all the time, so that like they wouldn't know how bad it was getting.
And then it's like, how is it not as bad as it should be? Because she's happy, but she looks crazy and like,
Caryn: mm-hmm.
Heather: This is not good. Mm-hmm. So I think, yeah, just being there and maybe, yeah, a subtle, like I, I know what you're,
Caryn: and I feel like in a way it's like, of course it wasn't under control, but I feel like for a good amount of it, I mean, maybe I'm wrong, it's like I feel like had a little bit of control and then maybe by the end that's when it was kind of like spiraling for you.
Heather: I [01:11:00] don't think I've had control since New York.
Caryn: No. Okay.
Heather: I was drinking every day in New York too. Okay.
By
Heather: the time I moved to Toronto, I had been drinking every day for a year.
Caryn: Yeah. No, I guess that like, but up until New York did it feel like you kind of had it A little bit.
Heather: Sure. But like I was drinking,
Caryn: even if it's not real control,
Heather: hadn't.
Started ruining my life yet.
Caryn: Yeah.
Heather: You know?
Caryn: Yeah.
Heather: After Ted, after like, my relationship ended, that was, that just gave me free reign to like
Caryn: mm-hmm.
Heather: Fuck everything.
Caryn: Yeah.
Heather: Not like, actually, but just like give up.
Caryn: Mm-hmm.
Heather: Like, I, I, that was my like, okay, okay. I'm not good enough.
Caryn: Mm-hmm.
Heather: I tried. I can't live without being a dancer.
I can't live without being in this relationship. I did my best. It's not for me here, so I'll just drink myself to death.
Caryn: Mm-hmm.
Heather: Cool.
Caryn: Cool.
Heather: Okay. Well, how do you feel?
Caryn: I feel good.
Heather: Are you mad at me?
Caryn: No.
Heather: Okay.
Caryn: But I do need to process and reflect.
Heather: That's fine. Karen, your first podcast episode. [01:12:00] Very proud of you.
Oh
Caryn: my God, thank you. I'm so proud of you. Thank you. This podcast is great. I'm enjoying listening to it. It's a lot of fun. I know. You're doing great.
Heather: Now you're gonna listen to your own self.
Caryn: I don't know that I can.
Heather: You have to.
Caryn: Okay.
Heather: You will.
Caryn: Yeah.
Heather: Okay. See ya. See ya.
Thanks for listening to Girl Undrunk. You can follow us on Instagram and TikTok at Girl Undrunk Podcast and or send me an email at heather@girlundrunk.com. And before we go, thank you to our amazing producer, Ariane Michaud, and support from her team at Consciously Produced, Martin Nunez-Bonilla for the graphics, Ian Sitt for setting up our sound and Daniel James for the music and final edits. This podcast would not be possible without [01:13:00] you.
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