#43: IYKYK
In this episode of Girl, Undrunk, Heather and Zoe catch up and chat about Heather's recent trip to Playa del Carmen, where an unexpected run-in with a close friend sparked reflections on coincidence, timing, and how sobriety reshapes connection. The conversation then shifts to the current trend of revisiting 2016, as they look back on toxic relationships, early addiction, food fear, and survival mode—unpacking how those formative years shaped their paths to recovery, body trust, and mental health today.
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IYKYK: Trancript
[00:00:00] Heather: This podcast covers sensitive topics that may be difficult for some listeners. Please take care while listening.
[00:00:29] Welcome back to Girl Undrunk. I'm Heather. I'm Zoe. And we're back, baby. We're back. I don't think I told everyone but I went on a trip. Well,
[00:00:37] Zoe: you said it like very casually. Oh, did I? In Christie's episode, but we didn't like get into it 'cause Christie was there.
[00:00:42] Heather: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I also like a little bit was like, is anyone gonna come follow me?
[00:00:45] I had like anxiety, but then I was like, who would follow me to Mexico?
[00:00:48] Zoe: I mean, I'm sure a lot of people would follow you to Mexico. I know one person in mind that would follow you to Mexico. Oh God. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah. Oh God,
[00:00:56] Heather: that's so true. Um, I, uh, went [00:01:00] to Playa del Carmen. Yes. With, um, with our producer and her husband.
[00:01:06] And my boyfriend, yes. First trip with the boyfriend. We fucking went, we did like a couple's massage. Mm-hmm. But it was like a. Love ritual. Mm. It
[00:01:18] Zoe: zoe a love ritual. Did it say that? Okay, this is my thing. Did it say that on when you were signing up for it?
[00:01:24] Heather: It it like they, everything had a lot of like flowery wor words around it.
[00:01:28] Yeah. But I did it. I. Wouldn't have done it if I, if I knew. Yeah. Like we, they walked us into the jungle. There was like two stumps. We like sat facing each other. We had this like rope, we had to like tie it in a knot and then put it over each other's necks. No, this sounds like some like love island shit, girl.
[00:01:44] We like had to whisper in each other's ear. It was, and we have never said, I love it. Yeah, we don't know. Like it. And it was just so intimate and I was like. Fuck. I felt so bad. Yeah. I was like, I trapped him into this thing. Yeah. I've like brought him to Mexico and like now he's like with this [00:02:00] woman called Lulu and she's forcing him to like, tell me all the things he likes about me.
[00:02:05] And I was like, fuck this. Like, I, I'm so sorry. I felt so bad.
[00:02:08] Zoe: Yeah.
[00:02:09] Heather: He was like, it's fine. Like this is what we do here. It's like, but
[00:02:11] Zoe: if you're signing up for something like that, that needs to be like straight in the description. Like I know, you know, they like, they can't just do that to
[00:02:18] Heather: you. I know. She was like, how long have you guys been together?
[00:02:21] And we were like. Three months. Yeah. And she was like. Oh, and I was like, why? Yeah, it was, we like had to put like, he had to like hold this like fire cauldron and I had to like think about something and then put Rosemary into it with like agave. I was like, oh my God. And then I was like, is there gonna be a massage at all or are we just gonna like bang here in a sote?
[00:02:40] Like what's happening? But Did they massage you? Yeah, they eventually walked us into like the massage room and I was like, this is wild.
[00:02:48] Zoe: But yeah, I don't even know if I would wanna do that with my. Almost year long boyfriend. Yeah. No, I was
[00:02:53] Heather: like, I'm so sorry. He's like, no, it's fine. Like, it was funny. It's fun.
[00:02:56] Like, yeah. But, um,
[00:02:59] Zoe: [00:03:00] yeah, that was great. But it was, it was a lot. The rest of, yeah. No, they should, they need to put that in the description. Yeah. So that you don't get, like, roped into that. Imagine if someone like went on like the first trip within like a month of dating and they do that. I, and they're like, oh, I actually like hate you now.
[00:03:13] You know? Yeah.
[00:03:14] Heather: Or like. Oh shit, I actually don't love you. Yeah. And like this is really, and that's like kind of how I felt. I was like, oh my God. Like what if he fucking, what if he hates me? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, but he doesn't, but it was fun. He loves you. Yeah. I was nice. But, um, how's your mental I.
[00:03:31] Zoe: My mental is good.
[00:03:33] I'm so happy you're back. Oh, I'm so happy you did that trip because I feel like you need it for multiple reasons. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I'm good. My boyfriend has moved in me forever. Forever. Crazy. How do you feel? I feel good. There was like a couple days before leading up to it, I was walking to work and I was like thinking about how he was moving here forever and I'm like.
[00:03:57] Hmm. What are we gonna do? What are we gonna [00:04:00] do every single day? Yeah. But then I was like, Zoe, don't future trip. Like it's gonna be fine. Mm-hmm. And like it is, it's just, it is a big step. And I don't think I was thinking about that this whole time. And then like that walk to work, I was just like, oh God, I know it's happening.
[00:04:17] Well, like is this okay to say that his mom posted like the sweetest thing Yeah. On Instagram
[00:04:22] Heather: about
[00:04:22] Zoe: him moving and like, no, his mom is it. Sweetheart say Angel for multiple reasons. It was so
[00:04:29] Heather: nice. I cried. I read the Post and it was just like a lovely post about her son, and I was like, but then it, it felt like a big step for me.
[00:04:37] Yeah. I was like, the way she wrote it was like he's moving and with like, the love of his life and like starting a new chapter. She was, I was like, am I ready for
[00:04:43] Zoe: this? She was like, he, he's like choosing love and all this stuff and I'm like, oh my God. You're like, I actually hate him, man. I take it back. I take it back.
[00:04:54] No, but it was so sweet. That's so nice. Yeah. Yeah. His mom like posted an Instagram post and like collaborated [00:05:00] it with him and he accepted it and he's like, I can't believe, like, he was like, I should have known that she was gonna post that because she always posts it. But she, he was like, I wish, like I took my blue light glasses off and like I had a toothpick in my mouth, so my lips look weird.
[00:05:14] And I'm like, yeah, it's not like the greatest photo of you eBay, but like, it's fine. It's, it's cute because your mom did it's,
[00:05:18] Heather: yeah. It's so nice. Yeah. And I think like, yeah. Like, my mom recently told me she was proud of me and I was like, oh my God, thank you. And it's like, it's a little like, it's like it's a little bit like, Ugh, mom cringey.
[00:05:32] But
[00:05:32] Zoe: it's so nice, it's so sweet, so nice that she is such like an open book and so expressive with her feelings because like my parents are not right. So it's nice to have that like another support in my life as well. Like in, I'm not gonna say she's like my second mom, but like she's really. I know if there was anything happening in my life, like I could talk to her about it and
[00:05:54] Heather: yeah.
[00:05:55] Zoe: Um, she's going through a lot right now and like, I wanna support her as much as I can, as well.
[00:05:59] Heather: Mm-hmm. [00:06:00] Yeah. Yeah, it's nice that, it's nice that like you are another addition into her life and, you know, a lot of like the stuff that's going on or like, you know, you. You're like an emotional, empathetic person.
[00:06:12] Mm-hmm. And it's, it's probably nice for her to know that like she's safe with you. Yeah. You feel safe with her. Yeah.
[00:06:17] Zoe: Her little boy is safe with you. Aw, that is so cute. Yeah. I'm gonna say I am an eight again. Ah, yeah. That's so good. How's your mental good?
[00:06:27] Heather: I think I am. Um. Okay. I will say I feel like coming back from a trip, it's like, oh, I'm great.
[00:06:32] Dah dah, dah. Everything is better. Coming back to the snow, dude. What, dude, we were, we got home at 2:30 AM we were supposed to get home at nine. Yeah. Sucks bro. Yeah. And, but honestly, uh, we. Went to Margaritaville in the airport. Mm-hmm. And like just did some work and it was like, so fun and stupid. But Did you get a mocktail um, margarita?
[00:06:54] No, I honestly, we were, where we went was so healthy and wellness and everything was [00:07:00] like intentional and like good for you and cleans your whole system. Um, I was like, I need a ginger ale. Yeah. So
[00:07:07] Zoe: bad. I just got a ginger ale french fry. Nice.
[00:07:11] Heather: Fuck yeah. We also got a salad and then when we were walking out, I was like, we're still in fucking Mexico.
[00:07:15] Like we can't just be like willy-nilly eating lettuce. Like that's insane. And then I got a little nervous, but I was like,
[00:07:20] Zoe: but you're fine.
[00:07:21] Heather: I'm good. I got some sun. Everything is better. I looked at the ocean. Everything's in perspective. Mm-hmm. I know that that's not a cure. Mm-hmm. What I will say is I was feeling very hopeful the whole time.
[00:07:31] Mm-hmm. And I was very excited at the end to like come home. Yeah. And just be like, okay. What's my responsibility in my own depression and anxiety and like life? How do I, how do I take a little more, more control over this? Mm-hmm. Um, we got on the plane. Mm-hmm. Really mean gay flight attendant, which is what I'm looking for.
[00:07:53] Mm-hmm. Flight attendant steward.
[00:07:55] Zoe: Yeah. Yeah. I love when people are mean to me by the way. Like it's kind of like, it's [00:08:00] kind of. Like a game with me that I'm like, oh, you're gonna be mean. I'm gonna be mean. Like we're gonna do this together. Oh, okay. Because I think I like to be like mean when I'm at work to like get people to know that like I'm in charge.
[00:08:12] Yeah. And I think that's what sometimes people do when Yeah. Like if you're a flight attendant, everyone needs to know like you're the boss, you're in charge. So like you need to be a little bit, set the boundaries with these people. So. Totally. I kind of like it. They were super late. Yeah.
[00:08:27] Heather: Remember the strike that happened?
[00:08:30] Mm. I was like, oh, they're probably like waiting 'cause they're so late, like their shift is gonna end. So like sometimes they'll cancel a flight because it's like, nope. They have to get off. Like they've worked too many hours. And there was a part of me that like felt really bad 'cause we got on the flight and we like heard like the mean gay talking.
[00:08:47] Yeah. And he, he was nice to me though. 'cause I walked on, I said. God, your eyes are stunning. And he thinks I grew them myself. I was like, this is what I'm looking for. But he was talking to his, his little bestie, the other stew, [00:09:00] and he was like, yeah, great. Um, an 18 hour day for eight hours of pay.
[00:09:04] Zoe: Mm. And I was like, eight hours.
[00:09:06] Yeah.
[00:09:07] Heather: I was, and then the pilot came on and was like, thanks to our crew who came in on, who's like working on their days off to like eight
[00:09:14] Zoe: hours. That's not right. No.
[00:09:17] Heather: Yeah. They will work overtime. It's crazy,
[00:09:21] Zoe: but eight hours isn't minimum wage even.
[00:09:24] Heather: Huh?
[00:09:26] Zoe: Eight hours an hour.
[00:09:27] Heather: Eight hours an hour. That's not minimum wage.
[00:09:31] What do you think? What do you think? You just said minimum wage. Yeah, but eight hours an hour. Yeah. Eight hours. Yeah. An hour.
[00:09:40] Zoe: Eight. $8 an hour. Right? So no. So that's not right. I realize what I did wrong. Now.
[00:09:51] Fuck you were gaslighting me. I was. That's how, that's how much I think. I'm so smart, guys. I know that. I really believe that. I'm always right. No, I'm like, [00:10:00] I can't, I can't figure this out. No,
[00:10:02] Heather: it's insane. I know. And they were being so funny. They were like. Talking to each other. Yeah. And they were like, oh, are you working today again for free?
[00:10:11] And then they were talking about the pilots and like, oh, did you accept four times the pay that's really necessary for you to like sustain a living? Oh my, oh my God. I was like, cannot, cannot. Yeah. This is fucking bullshit. Yeah, that
[00:10:21] Zoe: is bullshit. I didn't realize that they, I thought they sorted everything out after the fucking strike.
[00:10:27] Heather: I, yeah. I, I never, I guess they hadn't, I
[00:10:30] Zoe: didn't like follow up. I didn't know what, what happened. And also. I guess their big thing was like to get paid when they're in the airport, but I get maybe it didn't all get figured out if they're not fucking getting paid after their allocated amount of time to work.
[00:10:44] It's crazy. And
[00:10:45] Heather: I'm sure with like all the delays and the snowstorms, they just like kind of have to like take one for the team. Well, I guess they gotta get home too. Yeah. Or they like spend the night in Cancun. Yeah. Which like can Cancun airport though. Yeah. But there was a lot going on [00:11:00] before. We left.
[00:11:01] Yeah. But I was like, you know what? I'm gonna be so intentional. I need this, my body needs this. And I just like drank smoothies and regular milk lattes and like vegan, everything. It was so good. But, so my mental, I think is at like a seven.
[00:11:17] Zoe: Okay.
[00:11:18] Heather: Which is great 'cause I feel like it's been at like a four.
[00:11:20] Zoe: Yeah. So I feel Was this a vegan spot that you went to? Did they sell meat? This is Mexico. Did you eat a fucking taco? Like what's going on? So everything, it was like a, it's a wellness resort. Okay. So they have meat. Okay. They also have alcohol, but you have to like ask for it. Would they like side eye you, if you order a fucking carne asada taco in Mexico?
[00:11:41] Heather: No.
[00:11:43] Zoe: They,
[00:11:44] Heather: no, no. They were okay. Yeah. There was, there, they did ask like, what kind of protein do you want? Yeah. But like, it, it was like all like in tiny brackets at the bottom of like, everything, like alcohol and meat. Mm. But honestly, it was good. Yeah. It was really good. Okay. So what's going on? You, you, your [00:12:00] boyfriend moved in.
[00:12:00] That's very exciting. Is there all space? Are you unpacked? Yeah. He moved
[00:12:05] Zoe: everything mostly like a few weeks ago.
[00:12:07] Heather: Okay.
[00:12:08] Zoe: Before he had to go back to figure out his house.
[00:12:11] Heather: Mm-hmm.
[00:12:11] Zoe: Um, so yeah, everything's like good to go. Good to go. We made food like basically all weekend. Okay. This is great news. I know we made breakfast yesterday and dinner yesterday.
[00:12:23] We didn't eat out once. And guys like I have probably made. Like saying I made three meals in 2025. Yeah. Is like an exaggeration almost, because I probably didn't, yeah. Like those three meals that I made in 2025 were probably at my parents' house, like making breakfast for myself at my parents' house. Yeah.
[00:12:41] You know, toast. Yeah. I don't think I made. A meal at my house in 2025.
[00:12:46] Heather: Now, you know what, I'm really proud of you for saying that because I didn't really either. Yeah. And I think a lot of us don't. Yeah. And a lot of people have shame about it, but we live in the city.
[00:12:55] Zoe: I'm sorry, we're
[00:12:56] Heather: tired. It's cold. And also it's just the lifestyle.
[00:12:59] Yeah. [00:13:00] Like it's accessible to order food or like
[00:13:02] Zoe: Yeah.
[00:13:02] Heather: Go out. Like it's just, and it's fun to do that,
[00:13:05] Zoe: but I think like ever since I got sober, I was like, Hey, well, like, since I'm not spending all my money on. Booze and drugs. Yeah. Like I deserve to almost like eat good. Yeah. Food. I do live in the city. It is accessible.
[00:13:20] Like I'm not gonna waste my time cooking if like I can go and do this. And I kind of looked at it like that for a while, but now since my boyfriend is moving in. It is probably a smarter thing to cook meals at home more. Yeah. What's the resistance towards it? I think it's just like, I haven't done it.
[00:13:40] Mm-hmm. Really? So it doesn't feel like a usual routine for me. Are you
[00:13:45] Heather: like afraid? Like does it sound 'cause to me, honestly, it's boring.
[00:13:49] Zoe: Well, honestly, I guess a fear of it is like there's so, I love food so much. Mm-hmm. And like there's only a certain amount of meals. Left of my life that I will eat and I don't [00:14:00] wanna waste one of my meals on a shitty dinner that I cook for myself.
[00:14:03] Oh my God. Yeah. Have you ever like looked at those tiktoks where it's like, if you're like this, how many years old? Like you're probably gonna live for this many years, so you'll have this many more meals. And I'm like, that's like not enough meals for me to eat. Like I wanna eat all the good food. Like I deserve good food.
[00:14:18] Heather: Wow. I'm really passionate. I really didn't think that that's where that was gonna go. No, I
[00:14:21] Zoe: know
[00:14:22] Heather: that is some, sometimes I'm like Zoe. So even keeled and cool. She has no anxieties. What I,
[00:14:27] Zoe: I want to eat good things. Yeah. So I guess like the anxiety about cooking is like, oh, well, what if I make a shit meal?
[00:14:34] And then I. I don't feel joy after eating it because like, I love going out for like food with my friends. I feel so much joy. Yeah. Um, even picking up dinner and eating it at home in front of like the tv. Mm-hmm. I'm like, this is so nice. I love this. But I would be really disappointed if like a meal that we made, like was shit.
[00:14:53] And then I'm like, ugh. Like do I just like order food now? Do you have a cookbook? No. So we just like made breakfast [00:15:00] yesterday, but then we made a sausage and rapini pasta. All right. And it was really fucking good. Okay. Yeah. I showed Alexia. What's rapini? Rapini is like a green, it kind of is like a Italian broccoli.
[00:15:14] Oh yeah. The Italians love it.
[00:15:16] Heather: What I did take back from all this, oh my God. First of all, we had matcha waffles. Girl,
[00:15:23] Zoe: hated them.
[00:15:24] Heather: Loved them. Oh, loved them. MAA waffles. They had this like pistachio cream. Ooh. I was like, I'm literally never leaving. Yum. I would love that. We ate. So I don't, okay. We've talked about this.
[00:15:37] My eating is weird. I have like a weird thing with food.
[00:15:40] Zoe: No, Rachel, before when I did boxing, when you were gone, we were talking about you and we were like. I hope she's like doing so good, whatever. And Rachel was like, I was really proud of her because she said that she was so excited to go and to like drink smoothies and eat really good food.
[00:15:55] Mm-hmm. And she was like, I feel like Heather never talks about wanting to eat food. Mm-hmm. [00:16:00] Even in the healthy way. So no, I was like, yeah, that's true.
[00:16:02] Heather: I was excited at the like prospect of being a person who is excited about eating food. Yeah. Yeah. And I think like the fake it till you make it thing with that.
[00:16:10] Mm-hmm. I just, I, I'm, so, me and food have nothing to do with each other anymore, so I just don't know. It, it we're strangers, honestly. Yeah. So I was like, this is like intentional. It's wellness. It's like whatever, like I'm gonna, you know, it's just, it's going to be good regardless. Mm-hmm. Um, and like the first day I like had a yogurt and I had the best poop of my life.
[00:16:32] Mm. Nice. And then I like, kind of got a little constipated, but like, that's okay. Yeah. My body is like, what's going on? Mm-hmm. But. When I ate breakfast, I was like hungry at lunch. Yeah. Like my, you know, that's what
[00:16:42] Zoe: happens. That's what's
[00:16:43] Heather: supposed to happen. I know. Yeah. But that I like, don't scary. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:16:48] There like my default is to like shut it out.
[00:16:52] Music: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[00:16:52] Heather: And to like immediately panic and be like, oh God, my body. And I'm like. Yeah. I'm in a place where I like my body now, da dah, dah. [00:17:00] But I'm like, but don't fuck it up. Yeah. You know? And I was like, okay, this can't be. Mm-hmm. You cannot do this. Mm-hmm.
[00:17:06] Like, you're here with your boyfriend, you love him. Like it's, you don't have to eat everything but just eat. Yeah. Like, it's good. Eat when you're hungry. It's a week. Yeah. You know? I guess I didn't realize like how nervous I still was about food. I know that I am, but I'm like, now I'm doing it. Well, you just avoid it so much.
[00:17:22] Like you don't even think about it.
[00:17:24] Zoe: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
[00:17:25] Heather: No. And okay. There was one time where like we were on the beach and I was like, I'm hungry. And he's like, okay, order something. Mm-hmm. And I ordered something and then he didn't, and I was. I was like, oh my God, are you not hungry? Are you not? I guess I'll just call like, I, what you talking about?
[00:17:40] And he's like, it's fine. Yeah. Like I had a big breakfast like you can eat. And I told him, I was like, oh, this is crazy to me. Yeah. If you don't eat. Who am I gonna hide behind? Yeah. Like you're gonna be focused on your food, so you're not gonna watch me eat. Mm-hmm. But if you're not eating, it's just me. And then I'm like, am I allowed to eat?
[00:17:58] Is this stupid? Am I [00:18:00] like, is this a gross thing to eat? Like mm-hmm. Like so delusional. Mm-hmm. So crazy. But I ate it and it was fine. Fuck yes. But then there was one morning at breakfast, he like went down first to, I don't know where he was, but I was doing some Oh, I was clipping the pod. Yeah. And I, um, I just was like.
[00:18:17] I am freaking out. Mm. Like I'm freaking out about the amount of food I've eaten. I haven't pooped. I'm like, I was, I got so nervous. Everything fit. Like, it's not like I was like feeling whatever, but I just was panicking in my head. Mm-hmm. And I went to breakfast and he's like, what are you gonna get? And I was like.
[00:18:36] And our producer was like sitting there and I was like, I, I, and then I just started crying. Aw. And I was like, I don't, I don't know what I'm supposed to do right now. Yeah. I feel like shit, I feel fat, I feel ugly. I feel stupid. Mm-hmm. I couldn't figure out how to cut the clips. Yeah. Like things were weird.
[00:18:50] And I was just like, if I try to do something at all and I can't do it, my default is like, you're stupid, you're fat, you're ugly, you're useless. Yeah. And I was like, [00:19:00] that's how I feel right now. And I don't know what to do. And I'm sitting at breakfast and Alfonso's coming over to ask us what I want, and I'm like.
[00:19:06] I don't know what I'm allowed to eat right now. Yeah. And my boyfriend was like, okay, then don't eat. Yeah. He's like, are you hungry? Yeah. And I was like, no. And he's like, great. Get a
[00:19:16] Zoe: coffee. Don't eat. I think also like when I feel like that mm-hmm. And I just like move my body. Yeah. And like that allows me to eat food again.
[00:19:28] Yeah. Like, you know. Mm-hmm.
[00:19:30] Heather: That was the other thing. I, I feel like I, I wasn't. Moving. Yeah. I wasn't boxing. I wasn't doing Pilates, and I'm like, oh, I have like a, a worth thing with food. Yeah. Like I'm okay with the amount of food that I eat because I work out all the time. Yeah. But I haven't been moving my body, so I'm just like.
[00:19:44] Am I allowed to eat? Am I allowed to be hungry? Why am I hungry? Yeah. Like crazy. But then I like had a little cry about it and like talked to Arianne and, and my boyfriend about it. And they were like so nice to me. And of course they were, but it was, it was good. And it was helpful. Yeah. And then I was like, [00:20:00] all right, I'm getting a beach pizza.
[00:20:01] Fuck
[00:20:01] Zoe: yeah. Fuck. Yeah, she is. Yeah.
[00:20:04] Heather: But that was really nice. Um. It's good, but it's good. It's good to know. Like I did a sound bath and I was like, okay, I know my brain is crazy, so I'm just gonna be intentional and like observe my thoughts. Mm-hmm. Dude, they were like, thought in, thought out, thought in, thought out.
[00:20:19] I couldn't shut it down. Yeah. And I actually wasn't mad at myself. I was like, okay, I need to do this. Yeah. Because I can't, like I'm racing.
[00:20:27] Music: Yeah.
[00:20:28] Heather: But that was, that was good. I think all in all like. I love a, I love a vacation.
[00:20:34] Zoe: Maybe you do need to like, go to like more like meditation vibes in the city. I know.
[00:20:39] You know, like, try to like be more zen.
[00:20:41] Heather: Yeah. Zen. Zen. I need to be zen. Well, my, my therapist, I've told, I've told you guys this, but my therapist prefers to speak with me after we've done like a three minute meditation. Yeah. Otherwise, she's like, oh. All of your topics. Yeah. Okay. Mm-hmm. Um, so I think I do wanna like get into that a little [00:21:00] more slowly.
[00:21:00] Does your boyfriend
[00:21:01] Zoe: do meditation? 'cause I feel like he would be someone that does
[00:21:03] Heather: that. No, but he, you know, it's funny about him. He like, is very intentional about things, but he's always go, go, go. Mm. Like I don't think he actively rests. Yeah. Kind
[00:21:13] Zoe: of like me.
[00:21:14] Heather: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And being with our producer's husband who is like.
[00:21:20] So Zen. Mm-hmm. Like he used to meditate for like six hours a day. He's like the most I see, I see. Being with him. Yeah. And like seeing that contrast. I'm like, okay. Yeah. Like he, he, he's got this. Yeah. Everyone else we're just like pretending. It's kinda like talking around mental health and not working on it.
[00:21:38] Yeah. It's like talking around wanting to be, wanting to like, do meditation, but like not doing it. Yeah. But I think, um, I think I wanna start implementing just like, like. Slowly, like on the Calm app, like five minutes. Yeah. And then just kind of a hundred
[00:21:53] Zoe: percent. I think that'll be really beneficial for you.
[00:21:56] Yeah. I think you should keep up with the journaling.
[00:21:58] Heather: Yeah.
[00:21:58] Zoe: Um, oh, I [00:22:00] love the journaling. You know, like get into a regular routine mm-hmm. Here, and don't
[00:22:06] Heather: backtrack. Yeah. Yeah. Something fucking crazy happened. Mm. Okay. I. The last day we're on the beach, we're being picked up at two. Mm-hmm. So we're on the beach, sitting on our little, on our little cabana.
[00:22:22] Okay. I hear this little voice, two chairs over. I go, no, no. I turned my head. I had the craziest out of body experience my friend. Kaitlyn, who I'm was the first person I met when I moved to New York, is just fucking sitting over there.
[00:22:47] Music: What? Huh?
[00:22:48] Heather: And I was like, what's going on? I, we haven't seen each other.
[00:22:53] The last time I saw her, we were in Brooklyn in her front yard making hot dogs. Oh yeah. [00:23:00] Hot dog and wasted. Ooh dog. Absolutely fucking wasted. And I. I go over to her, I go, Hey, hi. What the fuck? Mm. And she turns around. We both look at each other, burst into tears. Aw. It was crazy. It felt like I just had this whole week of shit.
[00:23:18] I know that she's going through stuff like she always has like, I mean, she's a dancer. Like we all going through the same shit. It was the craziest thing we talked about with Christie last week, like signs and sobriety and I'm like, I don't know what this is, but it's just like. Why are you here? Mm-hmm.
[00:23:35] You would never be here. She was gifted this trip by this dance company she works with like this, this guy, she was like, yeah, he couldn't come. So he just like sent me. Is she like sober? Curious? So she's been sober from weed for a few months. Okay. And she goes, I, I was just, listen, listening to your podcast, love that.
[00:23:52] She's like, like just listening to you guys. And then she's like going on about you and me and she's like, I love Zoe and da da. And she's like crying and talking about, I'm like, this is the weirdest [00:24:00] fucking thing. And I was like, that's crazy. I was like, I'm leaving today. And she was like, oh my God. I'm like, no, I think this is good.
[00:24:04] Yeah, this is like a transfer of weird energy. Is she still in New York? Yeah. Okay. Well, we'll her, she's been in New York for 12
[00:24:11] Zoe: years.
[00:24:11] Heather: Yeah. So shout out, I'll put a picture. We took a cute little picture on the beach.
[00:24:15] Zoe: Oh, that's adorable. But it
[00:24:17] Heather: just was like one of those things that like I, and this leads us into our 2016 shit, but like the last time I saw it, like, yeah, everyone I'm around now.
[00:24:29] I'm sober around. Yeah. That was like a flashback. Yeah. And it really showed me like how far I've come.
[00:24:37] Music: Yeah. And
[00:24:38] Heather: I'm like, the last time I saw you, I was being broken up with in New York. My life was fucking ending.
[00:24:44] Music: Yeah.
[00:24:44] Heather: I hated my body. I had no job. I'd quit my job. I was just out of control. So drunk and like the worst was yet to come.
[00:24:53] Yeah. And like. And now we're here at this wellness vacation. At this. Yeah. Yeah. [00:25:00] So random. Like literally an hour before we're getting picked up. And I see this girl who like, she's like my New York Zoe. Like, you meet this person and you're like, I was like, oh, we're friends forever. Yeah. And we don't like keep in contact that much, but like we go back and forth.
[00:25:12] She like comments on the pod sometimes, but it was like so fucking kismet. It was so crazy. Yeah. And like it was just. I don't know. It was so nice. I, I feel like I kind of need was have, I've been looking for a sign a little bit. Signs. Yeah. And it, it just, I was like, yeah. Yeah. Like the, I don't know what the sign is yet.
[00:25:32] I have to like, journal about it, but I'm like, something is really right. Well,
[00:25:35] Zoe: the sign is that like we're on the right track, you know? Yeah. Like, just keep going. Yeah. That reminds me of when. My friend went to see her childhood friend recently. Mm-hmm. Um, my friend sober and the childhood friend of hers, like was just getting sober and they, my friend went to visit her because she was like.
[00:25:54] Recently, like maybe a week or two sober. Mm-hmm. And she like wanted help. They hadn't seen each other in [00:26:00] years. And when she's there, she was going through like her Spotify to put on music or whatever. And our podcast was like a recently listened podcast. Mm-hmm. And my friend was like, oh, you listen to Girl On Drunk?
[00:26:11] Like, that's my friend. That's my friend Zoe. That's so weird. Yeah. And this girl who was just, but she didn't know. No, my friend's friend didn't know. That my friend is friends with me. Whoa. Yeah.
[00:26:25] Heather: Oh my God, that's so cute and crazy. I know. That just gave me bumps and the girls's just
[00:26:28] Zoe: like a, a week or two sober, and she's like, yeah, like this podcast has been helping me.
[00:26:32] Heather: I'm like, ah. Oh my God, I have goosebumps on my face. I have to derma plane. Yeah. Damn. Oh my God. I know. It's so cool. I like, I said that to Arianne. I was like, I just ran into Caitlyn and like, yeah. And she's like, that's, I, I know, like we were both just like, I'm like, this is, and I felt like not that I have any authority over anything, or like mm-hmm.
[00:26:52] I, my nervous system is so fucked up, but I felt like. Okay. I just had this amazing trip. I've mm-hmm. I've done so [00:27:00] much thinking and now I'm gonna like, give that energy to you. Mm-hmm. And then like, you go and enjoy this. Yeah. And like, it's only gonna be good here. Yeah. I, I don't know. I, something felt so right and I just.
[00:27:13] I, it was good. It felt so good. Love. I
[00:27:16] Zoe: love that we're doing this and that like it is proving every day that we are helping so much people. So many people. Yeah. And that's like why we're doing this.
[00:27:24] Heather: Yeah. When I brought up the ca, uh, my friend Caitlyn that I saw on the beach, I was thinking about that, like, okay.
[00:27:29] The last time I saw her, I was wasted out of my mind. Yeah. And that was 20. That would've been 2021. We were already vaccinated. Okay. So probably 2021.
[00:27:38] Music: Okay.
[00:27:39] Heather: Um, but it got me thinking like, okay, there's these milestones in our lives and then what's going on with TikTok right now? This trend of like 2016.
[00:27:47] Mm-hmm. It's 2026. Is that why we're doing it? What is, who started this?
[00:27:51] Zoe: There's a whole conspiracy theory about like bringing it back to sports. Like when the Bears lost the Super [00:28:00] Bowl in 2016, it brought us, US Chicago out of like the right timeline of the world. And that's why the past 10 years have been shit.
[00:28:07] And like if the Bears win the Super Bowl this year, then we're gonna be on the right timeline. I don't know, but I think that's what Giggly Squad was saying. And I was like, what? And then I went on a TikTok rampage and they like explained that theory to me and I'm like, why is this about. Boards. But um, yeah, something along with that.
[00:28:24] And that's why the 2016 trend started. I love that. Yeah. I love
[00:28:29] Heather: alternate universes.
[00:28:30] Zoe: Yeah. Yeah. So 2016. Yeah, so 2016 we did like a post about our 2016, like where we were. And that was hilarious to put together. Where were you?
[00:28:41] Heather: Okay, 2016, I graduated college, so I moved out of Boston.
[00:28:47] Music: Mm-hmm.
[00:28:48] Heather: I moved to New York, to the Upper East side by myself, um, to a fifth floor walkup, and I was, this is when I started drinking on my own.
[00:28:59] Zoe: I [00:29:00] was gonna say, this is like when you went to New York is when your drinking career like really started.
[00:29:04] Heather: This is when I was started to drink every day. Yeah. I always had half a sweet green salad and half a bottle of wine in the fridge. Mm-hmm. Always. Mm-hmm. And I couldn't. Drink an entire bottle of wine.
[00:29:15] Yeah. Without falling asleep. Yeah. Because you were so skinny. I was so skinny. I also hadn't really started drinking yet. Yeah. Other than like at parties. Yeah. But I wasn't, I was drinking at home in Boston, but not often. Yeah. Um, I was more focused on like being skinny. Yeah. But when I moved to New York, I was immediately lost.
[00:29:36] I was terrified. I was so anxious. I had a very toxic boyfriend mm-hmm. Who like basically wouldn't let me leave the house. And we were long distance Guatemala boyfriend. Yeah. And like, you know, you know, somehow be even being long distance. He had such a hold on me. Yeah. And he needed to know where I was all the time.
[00:29:55] And that just added to all of my anxiety and my self worth. Mm-hmm. And I [00:30:00] just, I was either. Not going to class dance class or I was like being told that I was cheating on him and I couldn't fucking, I didn't know what to do because if I wasn't on my phone when he texted me, then I'm in trouble and he is breaking up with me, but I wanna be in class, but I can't go to class because then I'm not on my phone.
[00:30:20] Yeah. And he was doing that for a reason. Yeah. Like he was intentionally doing that. I. Started going to this little wine store, this bottle shop right next to my house and my world got so small. Yeah. I was like East 23rd seven, east 73rd, wait, 4 25 East 73rd Street. Mm-hmm. That's where I lived. Mm-hmm. And I went from like Second Ave to Third Ave and that's where I was.
[00:30:48] Yeah. And I was wine store me. And then like the coffee shop. Yeah. And that's what I did every single day and I would like get up and run. But then I would just sit in my house and think about all the [00:31:00] dance I wasn't doing.
[00:31:01] Zoe: It's crazy how like boyfriends can be so manipulative and toxic. Mm-hmm. Even when they're long distance, like Yeah.
[00:31:09] It's almost like worse if you have a long distance boyfriend and they're, um, like so protective over you. Yeah. Like get out girl. If you're in any long distance relationship and they're like. Making you text them like every hour or like, get Maddy if you don't text 'em back within a certain amount of time, like disgusting.
[00:31:28] I think you deserve better. Yeah.
[00:31:29] Heather: I think I knew it was bad. Mm-hmm. But I think I thought it was bad because of me. Yeah. Like I wasn't enough. Yeah. I was wrong. I was doing this and I, I wasn't a trustworthy person enough so that. When you didn't trust me, it was like, well, of course.
[00:31:45] Zoe: Yeah. But they, you were probably giving him no reasons not to trust you.
[00:31:49] Of course not. Yeah. I was very, he was the only man I'd ever had sex
[00:31:51] Heather: with. Yeah. Like, I was a little, I was, you know, I had just graduated college, I loved him. Mm-hmm. But [00:32:00] 2016 is when I started drinking. And I remember, I remember finishing an entire bottle of wine mm-hmm. And being like, oh. I feel fine. Yeah.
[00:32:11] Like I, I'm not asleep. I feel fine. Yeah. And then the next day I had another bottle of wine in my fridge and I drank it. And as I was drinking it, I was like, should I go get another one? And I remember it sitting on my mattress on the floor in New York and being like. Yeah. Sh, why not? And after that, gone.
[00:32:33] Gone. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And then it only went up from there. Yeah. It was that. From then on it was at least a bottle of night. Mm-hmm. Bottle of wine every night. Moved to two really fucking fast. Yeah. And then by the time I got to Toronto, I was like on three. Yeah. It was nuts. Yeah. I did end up dancing, like I was dancing a lot and like doing coke and like all this shit, but like that.
[00:32:55] I, I with the alternate universe thing, I think about that sometimes. Yeah. I'm like, [00:33:00] if that, if I wasn't dating that guy, if like. I just, yeah. Something else would've happened though. Of course. Of course. Yeah. But I'm just like, it was a perfect storm of like perfect recipe for me. Yeah. Like depression, anxiety, toxicity, having a boyfriend, being in love, but not being loved back.
[00:33:16] Yeah. Being in New York and feeling like I was wasting my time. Mm-hmm. That was a very sticky time for me.
[00:33:22] Zoe: Yeah. And
[00:33:23] Heather: it really was the kickoff to my drinking.
[00:33:25] Zoe: Yeah.
[00:33:26] Heather: 2016. So,
[00:33:27] Zoe: um, 2016, so I had. Graduated high school in 2016. Mm-hmm. Right? Yeah. Yeah. So I was dating my toxic boyfriend too. Oh. Mm-hmm. Um, like my first boyfriend in high school.
[00:33:47] Music: Mm-hmm.
[00:33:48] Zoe: He, like, I just chose him because he drank a lot and like, yeah. Is this the one whose mom would let you, like smoke weed at the house? Yeah. Okay. And like peed in the cup for me. Yeah, [00:34:00] if you know, you know that one too. Um, oh, crazy. We, we, I was moving to Toronto to start university that summer. Um, you were 17, right?
[00:34:13] Yeah, I was 17. So he was moving in with me.
[00:34:18] Heather: Oh,
[00:34:19] Zoe: in Toronto. Did he know that part? No. Yeah, he moved in with me. Were you guys the same age? No, he was like two years older than me. Okay. He has my lips tattooed on his chest and like I know he didn't get that lasered off of him because like he is a broke bitch, if you like.
[00:34:38] Liked if he was like cool hot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, like I. It's crazy to me that I even like was with that this person like, look, thinking back on this moment, it's so weird because I'm so different now than that girl 10 years ago. I'm sure you feel the same way. Like when I saw your
[00:34:58] Heather: picture, the pic. Oh [00:35:00] my God.
[00:35:00] When the picture of you on your balcony. Yeah. Smiling. I. I multiple things. I'm like, I wanna hug that girl. Mm-hmm. I also am like, who the fuck is that? Is she,
[00:35:14] Music: no,
[00:35:15] Heather: I know, but I like, I see you in there. But I'm like,
[00:35:17] Zoe: whoa. And like she stood on that balcony multiple times on the railing. On the railing of the balcony multiple times.
[00:35:25] You know, 46 floor up if you know, you know,
[00:35:29] but Okay. Yeah, he moved with me because. We were like in love, whatever, I missed you. I love you. Like literally don't leave me again. Okay. Um, and he left after two weeks because he hated Toronto because he's from Sia, lame loser. Mm-hmm. But I remember when he told me like he was leaving, I was happy, which I was shocked that I felt happiness when he told me he was leaving because I was obsessed with him for two fucking years, [00:36:00] you know?
[00:36:01] But I think I knew. When I moved here, like, oh, like I have so much more than just this small relationship, you know?
[00:36:08] Heather: Wow. You knew that. Yeah. At 17 you knew that.
[00:36:12] Zoe: I like got the job at teroni. Really? I impressive. I was like meeting people already. I'm like, I have so many people to drink with now. Like, you know, I don't fucking need you.
[00:36:20] Yeah. To drink with anymore. 'cause I, I just met five, 10 people at this new job who seem really cool and older and fun and they wanna take me out to bars. They've got what I want. Yeah. Yeah. I can just drink with them. I don't need you anymore so you can go back to Sarnia. And I think that's why I was so fine with him leaving.
[00:36:37] Heather: Yeah.
[00:36:38] Zoe: Um, and then, yeah, my drinking career, like I was already an alcoholic at that point. A hundred percent. Did you know that like. Probably not, not with like the words. Not with the words, but did you know you were tied to it, like you needed it? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Um, even like when we moved to the city, we were both like frantic of like, how are we [00:37:00] gonna like get weed?
[00:37:02] 'cause we were both addicted to weed and, and it wasn't, he was older so he could buy elk also. It was fine. And
[00:37:06] Heather: weed wasn't
[00:37:07] Zoe: legal yet, right? Or like in dispensaries yet? No, it wasn't right. Okay. Um, I stopped smoking weed when it was legal because it's not cool anymore to do that. Oh,
[00:37:13] Heather: well that's exactly right.
[00:37:16] Zoe: But. I remember, like we were both stressed about how we were gonna find weed, we found weed, whatever, and he was buying me booze. But then when he left, I did have a fake ID and I used it. Mm-hmm. Through dial a bottle because I was too scared to like go to the LCBO to use my fake id. Yeah. But. They like, let me use it with the dial a bottle.
[00:37:37] Music: Nice.
[00:37:38] Zoe: And that, I did that for a while, which is so expensive to order fucking bottles of tequila and vodka like that. Yeah. But who cares? It's survival, but who cares? Mm-hmm. And then one day I was like, Hey, this is too much money. Like my parents are gonna be mad at me for spending all this fucking money.
[00:37:52] Yeah. So then I went to the Ls, PO, and I. Use my fake ID and it worked. And then I never dialed the ball again until like it was 3:00 AM and I needed one for and [00:38:00] a after hours. But
[00:38:00] Music: yeah.
[00:38:01] Zoe: Did you ever get caught with
[00:38:02] Music: a fake id?
[00:38:03] Heather: No. No, I didn't either. Ever? Yeah. I used my sisters. Yeah. But I never, ever, I was with someone when they got caught.
[00:38:09] Yeah. And I hated that. Yeah. But
[00:38:12] Zoe: no, I think like 2016, my drinking wasn't like horrible then, but it was, it was probably like halfway as bad as it was gonna get.
[00:38:24] Heather: Holy shit. But you were drinking every day?
[00:38:26] Zoe: Yeah, like getting wasted. If I wasn't drinking every day, I was smoking weed every day. Okay. Like if I didn't have, like, I was doing one or the other every day.
[00:38:37] Heather: And how were you feeling?
[00:38:39] Zoe: I was just feeling like survival mode probably for the most part. Like mm-hmm. Do this, to do this to the like, it wasn't ever like calm, right? It was just. Surviving.
[00:38:50] Heather: You're very, and I think still, which is great. Yeah. But now it's like inappropriate. But you, it is appropriate now.
[00:38:57] Mm-hmm. But you are fueled by being with your [00:39:00] friends. Yeah. And being social and like For sure. Being there for your friends, you know? Yeah. And I feel like that's a really confusing place to be. Mm-hmm. Because all of your friends are drinking, they all love you, they love that you're drinking, you're having fun, you're doing the city thing.
[00:39:14] Mm-hmm. Whereas for me, I was in New York being like, why am I so miserable? Yeah. This is New York City.
[00:39:20] Zoe: Yeah. So because you weren't leaving your Yeah. House because, well, that's another thing, this boyfriend of mine that I had in high school.
[00:39:27] Music: Mm-hmm.
[00:39:27] Zoe: We, I guess this was also in 2016 'cause we went on S trip.
[00:39:33] Before we graduated, probably like March, 2016. Did he go? He didn't go because he was two years older. Yeah. But I went mm-hmm. And I remember like all I wanted to do was like drink with everybody, but he was so toxic where he was like, you have to like mm-hmm. Call me every night, blah, blah, blah. And wouldn't let me go out and drank.
[00:39:49] I think I went out once on the week of ES trip to drink with everybody, but. Yeah, that fucking sucked, bro.
[00:39:57] Heather: Oh
[00:39:58] Zoe: God. And that's, I was just like waiting in the [00:40:00] hotel lobby, just like fucking texting him like, Ew. It
[00:40:02] Heather: surprises me that you let that happen. I know, because shocked you were, you were already so into alcohol.
[00:40:09] Yeah. And like that is the most important thing. Yeah. But it wasn't really, it wasn't a
[00:40:13] Zoe: little like that guy was, I guess, more important to me than getting fucked up at that point. How did you meet that guy? I don't even fucking remember. You know what? I met him. I was fucking his friend. Okay. And then I met him.
[00:40:31] Okay. Yeah. Okay.
[00:40:33] Heather: A classic Romeo and Julia. Yeah. Classic. Classic city love story. Yeah. If you could go back to 2016 as you are now and find that little girl Zza, what would you say to her? I guess just
[00:40:47] Zoe: like. You're loved. Yeah. Like, I don't know. Do you feel like you didn't feel like you were loved? I don't think so.
[00:40:53] Yeah. I think that's why I was like looking for love in that relationship. And then when it, when he decided [00:41:00] to leave Toronto, I was, I was so fine with it because like I knew I loved drinking so much. Yeah. Like going out. But I didn't feel loved because I couldn't be by myself with no booze or drugs. Yeah.
[00:41:13] You know, like or with nobody around. Yeah. So, yeah, I just don't think I felt loved at all. I feel seen going back to Chrissy's episode, like being seen.
[00:41:23] Heather: Yeah. And
[00:41:23] Zoe: I guess like, I dunno, what would you tell your younger self in 2016?
[00:41:29] Heather: Oh God. Oh man. On, I don't know. There's like, there's a part of me that's like.
[00:41:37] Fucking get up. Yeah, get up, get up. Leave the house. Yeah. And get away from him. Yeah. And go to class and do the thing you love to do. Like remember what's important. Remember like go towards helping yourself and feeling happy for yourself. Yeah. Not. Like, you're working on something here. Yeah. You know, you're so young and beautiful and talented, and people love [00:42:00] you.
[00:42:00] Mm-hmm. And let them see that. Don't be so fucking scared, you know?
[00:42:03] Music: Yeah.
[00:42:04] Heather: Um, but at the sucks, but at the same time, it's like. I would say, babe, you have anxiety. Yeah. You have depression. Go to therapy. Yeah. Like everything you're feeling right now, you're not alone. Yeah. I would get up, I would go to dance.
[00:42:18] I'd wanna go to dance. I'd get up, I'd go to the train. I would turn around, come all the way back home. Yeah. Like I would almost make it. Yeah. I probably would say, okay, get on the train. Yeah. And if you can't go in, get back, but get on the fucking train, you know? Yeah.
[00:42:30] Zoe: It's so sad that like so many. Young girls, including both of us, were like so fueled by people like men loving us back.
[00:42:38] Yeah. And like I like dance fell through for you because of a fucking boy Yeah. That you were obsessed with. Like, there's so many girls just do that, right? Yeah. But. It's not
[00:42:52] Heather: worth
[00:42:52] Zoe: it.
[00:42:53] Heather: I saw a girl, this is the last thing I guess we'll say because it's getting so dark. But, um, I saw a girl on TikTok this morning.
[00:42:58] I actually commented from our, [00:43:00] yeah, our thing. She's like, I'm 29, my name is Brittany. She's like, I'm 29. She's crying. I just fucking ruined my life. Mm-hmm. I cut out everybody in my life to be with this guy. I thought it was the right thing. Yeah. He took all my friends. He just kicked me out. My life is over.
[00:43:13] I dunno what to do. Someone's dad was like, hi, I'm a dad. And like wrote a really nice thing. But then I wrote like, hi, hi. As two people who've al who's who've also like ruined their lives. Yeah. Like this is a starting point. Yeah. Like this is literally, you ha, sometimes you have to get to the place where everything is fucking broken For sure.
[00:43:32] And taken from you because the universe has been telling you Yeah. Get the fuck out. You know? Yeah. You know it's not right. And if you keep it going, eventually everything's gonna crumble. Mm-hmm. And it's gonna take a long time. That crumble is really good. And 29 is so young. Like you have your whole life.
[00:43:49] Like I got sober at 28. Yeah. And then started my life again. Yeah. Like I met my best fucking friend at 29. Yeah. Like, you
[00:43:56] Zoe: know, it's never too late.
[00:43:58] Heather: No, it's never
[00:43:58] Zoe: too late in any scenario to [00:44:00] get sober, to restart your life, to break up your, your husband. Yeah.
[00:44:03] Heather: And you're number one. Yeah. Like, love yourself the way you wanna be.
[00:44:06] Loved. You are number fucking one. And like, people know that they see it. Mm-hmm. Like it's, it sucks. It's so hard, but it's like going to be okay. But you are really the most important person coming from two people who like absolutely hated themselves. Yeah, yeah. And have just realized in the past few years that like, we're worth it.
[00:44:24] Yeah. If we can do that, I'm, we're telling you, you are so worth it. Yeah. It's insane. You know,
[00:44:30] Zoe: you're amazing. You're perfect. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. And if they are telling you otherwise, kick them the fuck outta your real life. That's exactly right.
[00:44:37] Heather: And we're so proud of you. We're really proud of you.
[00:44:40] I'm proud of you.
[00:44:41] Music: I'm proud of you. You're happy.
[00:44:44] Zoe: Okay, love you.
[00:44:45] Music: Bye
—
Thanks for listening to Girl Undrunk. You can follow us on Instagram and TikTok @girlundrunkpodcast or send me an email at heather@girlundrunk.com.
And before we go, thank you to our amazing producer, Ariane Michaud, and support from her team at Consciously Produced. Martin Nuñez-Bonilla for the graphics. Ian Sitt for setting up our sound, and Daniel James for the music and final edits. This podcast would not be possible without you.
This episode was proudly produced by Consciously Produced LLC.
