#44: Weird Signs From The Universe (feat. Tabitha Rose)

In this episode of Girl, Undrunk, Heather and Zoe talk with Tabitha, founder and publisher of Life to Paper, about sobriety, mental health, and the strange signs that can quietly change a life. Tabitha shares her seven-year sobriety journey, reflecting on addiction, antidepressants, anxiety, and finding peace after years of chaos. It’s an honest conversation about recovery, healing, and learning to trust yourself again.

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Weird Signs From The Universe: Trancript

[00:00:00] Heather: This podcast covers sensitive topics that may be difficult for some listeners. Please take care while listening.

Hi everybody. Welcome back to Girl Undrunk. I'm Heather. And I'm Zoe. And today we have Tabitha founder and publisher of Life to Paper. Tabitha, welcome to Girl Undrunk 

[00:00:41] Tabitha: Thank you. Yay. I'm so excited to be here. Hi Tabitha. Hi. 

[00:00:44] Heather: How you feeling today? 

[00:00:45] Tabitha: Good. 

[00:00:46] Heather: Yeah. 

[00:00:46] Zoe: Yeah. 

[00:00:47] Heather: Um, we like to start off with checking in on everyone's mental health.

Mm-hmm. God, I'm so excited. I have so much to get to already. Mm-hmm. But we should check in first. 

[00:00:56] Zoe: Check in with us. 

[00:00:57] Heather: You wanna start? How's your mental? 

[00:00:59] Zoe: Sure. I'm [00:01:00] good. I feel so excited to talk to you today. Um, it's so cool that we both know Christie and the Christie episode just came out last week, so I feel like that's like a sign that this is gonna be such a good episode.

Um, yeah. I made coffee this morning for the first time at my house 'cause we're gonna try to cook and like do things at home this year. 

[00:01:23] Tabitha: Oh, 

[00:01:23] Zoe: last year I didn't cook at all. 2025. But we're learning. We're growing. Mm-hmm. The coffee was decent, so. Okay. I think Where'd 

[00:01:31] Heather: you get your coffee from? 

[00:01:32] Zoe: Got it. From some coffee shop.

[00:01:34] Heather: Okay. 

[00:01:34] Zoe: Yeah. The 

[00:01:35] Heather: coffee 

[00:01:36] Zoe: beans. Sometimes 

[00:01:36] Heather: you gotta like find the place that's like that, the coffee you love. Yeah. And not just the latte version of it. 

[00:01:42] Zoe: Exactly. It's gonna take a little bit to like, try all the different beans mm-hmm. To see which is gonna be our beans. But 

[00:01:48] Heather: yeah. 

[00:01:48] Zoe: I think I was just like really proud that we did that this morning because it's like, just like a little step in the right direction.

[00:01:55] Heather: It's 

[00:01:56] Zoe: a step, a small step, you know? 

[00:01:56] Heather: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Rather than doing it all at the same time. Yeah. I'm gonna cook all my meals today. It's like, 

[00:01:59] Zoe: [00:02:00] yeah. 

[00:02:00] Heather: Let's start with coffee. 

[00:02:01] Zoe: Let's start with coffee. Yeah. 

[00:02:02] Heather: I was gonna start with yogurt today and then I didn't, 

[00:02:04] Zoe: I thought that counts. Um, I'm gonna give myself, I'm still rocking at an eight.

I feel like I wanna say a nine, but I'm like too scared to give myself a nine. Sure. So I'm gonna stay with an eight. 

[00:02:15] Heather: I love an eight. 

[00:02:16] Zoe: Yeah. How are you? 

[00:02:17] Heather: I'm good. I'm good. Thank you. 

[00:02:19] Zoe: I'm good. Thank you. 

[00:02:20] Heather: Move 

[00:02:20] Zoe: on. 

[00:02:20] Heather: I'm good. Actually, I, uh, I'm still coming down from my post vacation. Mm-hmm. But I'm like riding that high.

I, um. I was like, just reading all about you this morning. And I was feeling really like the past few days I've been feeling very uplifted. I ran into like an old friend on the beach in Cancun, which was insane. And then this morning I listened to, um, Dak Shepherd had Elizabeth Smart on. 

[00:02:44] Zoe: Oh, cool. 

[00:02:45] Heather: Which, do you know who that is?

No, this is, yeah. This is where I grew up with the fear of, um, being kidnapped and quicksand. Yes. And I think that when you came about that was tempered a little bit. 

[00:02:59] Zoe: Yeah. [00:03:00] Who's Elizabeth Smart? 

[00:03:00] Heather: She was living in Salt Lake City. She was kidnapped when she was a child out of her bedroom window. She was in, like, her and her sister, she's Mormon.

They was a, it was a six children in the family. She shared a bed with her little sister, Mary Catherine, and this guy who had worked, he was. An an unhoused person. He, because they're Mormon and like church folk, they were like, oh, like we can give you a job. You can come help at the house, ground keeper, whatever.

And from like the moment he saw Elizabeth on the street, he like made his way into their house and then like kidnapped her a few like, oh shit, like a year later or something like that. It's 

[00:03:39] Tabitha: Whoa. 

[00:03:39] Heather: An incredible story. I've been following her since. Oh. Like, I remember it happening. Like, I remember hearing it the, with us, the news 

[00:03:46] Tabitha: a little 

[00:03:46] Zoe: bit.

Yeah. Yeah. How 

[00:03:47] Heather: old 

[00:03:47] Zoe: is she now? 

[00:03:48] Heather: She is, how old is she? Let me look her up. 

[00:03:50] Tabitha: I'm trying to remember when this would've happened. 

[00:03:52] Zoe: No, I'm excited for that one. I haven't, you always, she's really always get the ones early. 

[00:03:57] Heather: Yeah. 

[00:03:57] Zoe: So then I'll watch it a few days after. 

[00:03:59] Heather: She's [00:04:00] 38. 

[00:04:00] Zoe: Okay. Wow. 

[00:04:02] Heather: Crazy. Yeah, she was, she was taken when she was 14 years old for nine months in 

[00:04:05] Zoe: the same bed as her sister.

[00:04:06] Heather: Yeah. It's an amazing story. Like, yeah. Also the connection with like religion. Mm-hmm. And, and she was obviously assaulted mm-hmm. During this and, and what that did to her as a person who is like supposed to be so pure under the eyes of God. Yeah. A lot of it was still like, okay, well what if I do make it out of this and I get married?

[00:04:25] Zoe: Yeah. 

[00:04:26] Heather: My husband is not gonna want, like, it was, it's so much wrapped in mm-hmm. Rather than to just be like, this is a bad thing that happened to me. Yeah. Now there's more. 

[00:04:34] Tabitha: Yeah. The 

[00:04:34] Heather: shame. And it's somehow my fault. Yeah. It's, she's amazing. And now she does, she works with like victims of abduction and she's an advocate.

She's incredible. Okay. The way she tells her stories, I mean, she's been telling her story forever. Yeah. So it's, it's beautiful. But I felt like, I'm like, she's just, she's doing it. She's just amazing and I've been feeling very uplifted to all this. I would give myself. I think I'm [00:05:00] at a SI feel like I'm at a seven.

[00:05:02] Zoe: Okay. I know. I feel good. That's amazing. I love today. Have that story, like made you so 

[00:05:07] Heather: I know. I know. 

[00:05:08] Zoe: Okay. 

[00:05:09] Heather: I dunno. It just like, she's very hopeful. Yeah. I think probably like the fir like I remember reading her book and I was reading the book of like JC Dugard who was also abducted. And I think like when I first read them, it was like dark and scary and horrible.

Yeah. And it is, but then being able to like listen to them now Yeah. Speak about it and what they're doing and what they've learned. I'm like, wow. The victory is just, you know, making it out. 

[00:05:34] Tabitha: Yeah. 

[00:05:34] Heather: It's great 

[00:05:35] Tabitha: helping other women. 

[00:05:36] Heather: Hey. But anyway, 

[00:05:38] Tabitha: I, I feel like you're like me like when I, like you started your day with stories.

Yeah. The more stories I have in a day, like the better I feel. 

[00:05:45] Heather: Yeah. Yeah. 

It's 

[00:05:46] Tabitha: like my medicine. 

[00:05:47] Heather: It, it 

[00:05:47] Tabitha: fuels 

[00:05:48] Heather: me. It 

[00:05:48] Tabitha: really fuels 

[00:05:49] Heather: me. 

[00:05:49] Tabitha: Are you an avid like podcast listener? Like do you Yeah. Yeah. Um, I also love Armchair expert. Mm-hmm. Um. I, uh, diaries of a CE I've [00:06:00] started to listen to just, yeah. I, I search for like, themes, subjects, guests, so, um, I don't always listen to the same podcast like faithfully.

Mm-hmm. But I'm like, oh, this guest happens to be on this show or that, and I'm interested in listening to them. I will. And as long as the host is fairly like, 

[00:06:17] Heather: yeah. 

[00:06:18] Tabitha: Yeah. It's tolerable 

[00:06:19] Heather: sometimes. Yeah. If, if I hear someone talking about their addiction, I just like, go and find every podcast they've done.

Yeah. Every guest, like, guest spot they've done. I like wanna listen more and more. Yeah, 

[00:06:28] Tabitha: exactly. I 

[00:06:28] Heather: love it. For 

[00:06:29] Tabitha: sure. Exactly. 

[00:06:30] Heather: How is your mental health? 

[00:06:31] Tabitha: I'd say it's good. Mm-hmm. Like I'm in a good place overall. Yeah. I wake up pretty peaceful. 

[00:06:37] Heather: Mm. 

[00:06:37] Tabitha: I used to have a lot of panic 

[00:06:39] Heather: mm-hmm. 

[00:06:39] Tabitha: Like around the, the day and like, take my time to wake up.

Like, I don't know if I can do the world today. 

[00:06:45] Zoe: Like, I don't know if I can get outta bed today kind of 

[00:06:47] Tabitha: thing. Yeah, yeah. Sort of like, ah, like think thinking, overthinking things. Sometimes catastrophizing, but. I wake, I woke up excited 

[00:06:55] Zoe: mm-hmm. 

[00:06:55] Tabitha: To have this conversation with you two. 

[00:06:57] Zoe: Mm-hmm. 

[00:06:57] Tabitha: And like, you know, just [00:07:00] what the day entails.

[00:07:02] Zoe: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

[00:07:02] Tabitha: So I feel like I'm, I'm like an age. Okay. Ish. 

[00:07:06] Heather: So good 

[00:07:07] Tabitha: ish. I think. Yeah. This is very 

[00:07:09] Heather: positive room today. Yeah. 

[00:07:10] Tabitha: Is there anything that you do to 

[00:07:12] Zoe: like, help yourself get into that mind state every morning? 

[00:07:17] Tabitha: Like, I don't know, I feel like lately I kind of keep shaking my head at just like, I feel so peaceful, like in a wake also waiting, when's the shoe gonna drop?

[00:07:27] Heather: Mm-hmm. 

[00:07:28] Tabitha: Because I'm not used to this. Mm-hmm. Like this is the first time in my life I think I've really felt peace. Mm-hmm. I think I knew what I heard the word, but like, I'm like, that sounds nice, but I didn't really know it. 

[00:07:38] Heather: Yeah. 

[00:07:39] Tabitha: And now I know it, but the other part of me is like. When's it gonna Yeah.

This shit gonna hit the fan. Yeah. Because I don't know, that was my life for so long. Yeah. But I feel, I wake up very, like, you know, I feel grounded. Mm-hmm. And like, um, you know, even like, I'm excited to go take the [00:08:00] dogs out mm-hmm. And like, okay, today I have whatever it is. Mm-hmm. I feel kind of like I, I I like my life today.

[00:08:09] Zoe: Mm-hmm. 

[00:08:09] Tabitha: I guess. 

[00:08:10] Zoe: Yeah. Yeah. And you're deserving of it. Like, it's probably like a reminder. Like, you, you do deserve this life. You don't like, deserve for the shoe to drop. You know, like, you are worth it. You are here for a reason, you know? Yeah. 

[00:08:22] Tabitha: It's also like, enough enough 

[00:08:23] Zoe: of that. Yeah. No, seriously. Yeah.

Can't think like that 

[00:08:26] Tabitha: forever. 

[00:08:26] Heather: Before we started recording, we were just talking about, 'cause I, I have a, an allergy to the sun because of my, what I'm assuming is my antidepressants. 

[00:08:34] Tabitha: Mm-hmm. 

[00:08:34] Heather: And you were saying that you're off of your antidepressants now. 

[00:08:37] Tabitha: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

[00:08:38] Heather: When did you get off them? 

[00:08:39] Tabitha: Um, I tell you like.

When I got off was sort of like, funny enough, I only, you know, you make plans and then, you know, life happens. Mm-hmm. But the plan was like, I'm sober now. It's been about a year. I'm still on a monthly basis going into this like dark place. Mm-hmm. [00:09:00] You know, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 days. Okay. Out of every month. Is it around your period?

I didn't track it that well. 

[00:09:08] Zoe: You should try. See. 

[00:09:10] Tabitha: It was like, but I knew it was consistent. Mm-hmm. It wasn't like con like for months at a time. Yeah. Yeah. But it would be like periods and like, 

[00:09:16] Zoe: interesting. 

[00:09:17] Tabitha: I just were, there were days when like I couldn't do much. Yeah. At all. Like sometimes like, it's like I get up, go to the bathroom, go back to bed.

[00:09:24] Zoe: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

[00:09:24] Tabitha: And this, and I realized getting sober and being sober for a little bit. This has been happening my whole life. Yeah. And I'm sober and I'm, you know, doing the things and whatever. I'm like, this is still happening. 

[00:09:35] Heather: Yeah. 

[00:09:35] Tabitha: So it was suggested that I go on antidepressant. I'm like, I'm willing to try this.

Maybe like a, a bridge, like 

[00:09:41] Heather: Yeah. A jaw 

[00:09:41] Tabitha: stop until I get consistency. So I started taking it and it was like a miracle because for the first time in my life I had consistency. Like I didn't have, like, you know, 'cause I'd plan based on my best days. 

[00:09:54] Heather: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:09:54] Tabitha: And, and then I'd be, so, even feel even lower.

When I plan for tomorrow, [00:10:00] I've got this full day. Yeah. And I wake up and I can't show up to any of it. Mm-hmm. 

[00:10:03] Heather: Yeah. 

[00:10:04] Tabitha: So I was able to, for like a couple years, like show up in a way I'd never had before. And I was like, this is amazing. 

[00:10:10] Heather: Mm-hmm. 

[00:10:10] Tabitha: And honest to God, I know this isn't, I don't recommend this to anybody.

Mm-hmm. But one day I sort of woke up and I found that I'd been like, I'd been taking it every day and all of a sudden I'd kind of been slipping or like it had gotten super late, or I'd forget one day and it just, like, I naturally tapered off. Wow. Interesting. Like, I, you know, took it really late one day, then I missed another day.

And then it was like, and it got to a point where I was kind of like, oh, I guess I'm like done with 

[00:10:39] Zoe: this 

[00:10:39] Tabitha: now. I think maybe it's 

[00:10:40] Zoe: so it wasn't a conscious thing at all. 

[00:10:42] Tabitha: It just kind of happened. 

[00:10:43] Zoe: Okay. Interesting. Yeah. And 

it 

[00:10:45] Heather: didn't throw you into a depression? 

[00:10:47] Tabitha: No. 

[00:10:48] Heather: Wow. 

[00:10:48] Tabitha: No. 

[00:10:48] Heather: Okay. 'cause this is what I'm dealing with now.

I mm-hmm. I, I've been on this same. Drug for, oh God, like eight years. 

[00:10:56] Tabitha: Mm-hmm. 

[00:10:57] Heather: And I, I know that it's not doing what [00:11:00] it's supposed to be doing. 

[00:11:01] Tabitha: Right. 

[00:11:01] Heather: I can feel it and like I probably have an immunity to it. Mm-hmm. I've never really felt the effects of it because I was drinking. 

[00:11:07] Tabitha: Yeah. 

[00:11:08] Heather: And I wanna get off of it, but it, it, I'm, it's so intense for me to even like, go down a dose, it just like, I'm gone.

Yeah. Like, it fucks with me. I get nauseous, I get cra I get crazy. Like I really do, I get very sad. So I'm like, I wanna like try and figure out a way if there's like a bridge to kind of get off of them or switch it up or something. But 

[00:11:32] Tabitha: yeah. 

[00:11:33] Heather: Skilly. Yeah. 

[00:11:34] Tabitha: Yeah. I, I can only say that that time the kind of changes going on in my life were like, yeah.

I started, um, like moving my body again more consistently. I started doing like hot and cold therapy mm-hmm. On a regular basis. Hot and cold. Get off your antidepressants and go to a cold plunge with me. Literally a cold 

[00:11:55] Heather: plunge 

[00:11:56] Zoe: all the 

[00:11:56] Tabitha: time. I'll go through anytime. Anytime. 

[00:11:58] Heather: Like it too. I [00:12:00] hate it. 

[00:12:01] Tabitha: I, and I'm so Ed.

Me too. I was so a, I'm like, I can do this. I do a lot of things. I can't do this. Mm-hmm. But the feeling after, I don't know it's 

[00:12:09] Zoe: worth 

[00:12:09] Tabitha: it. Can't match that. Yeah. 

[00:12:11] Heather: I 

[00:12:11] Tabitha: just think, I think it had to be that because I finally, and that's why I took it. I'm like, I thought at first when I got sober. I traded like sobriety for, you know, moving my body and taking mm-hmm.

'cause all of a sudden I didn't do any of that anymore. It completely dropped off. And I'm like, well, I guess if I have to trade something. 

[00:12:27] Zoe: Yeah. 

[00:12:27] Tabitha: I don't think that's what, like, 

[00:12:28] Zoe: no, 

[00:12:29] Tabitha: the universe wants for me, like Yeah. Wants me to have a full life. 

[00:12:32] Zoe: Mm-hmm. 

[00:12:32] Tabitha: And so I started slowly, I really think it was the hot and cold therapy that opened the door to me starting to do like yoga again, you know, head classes and stuff.

Like all of a sudden it was just thinking about like. Taking that time every day. Mm-hmm. Once a day. 

[00:12:49] Zoe: Yeah. 

[00:12:49] Tabitha: And then it was like, oh, what am I gonna do for my body today? 

[00:12:52] Zoe: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

[00:12:52] Tabitha: And they opened the door, and then I started doing things and I'm like, oh, I, I love this. I, you know, I miss this. 

[00:12:58] Zoe: Yeah. Do you go to like [00:13:00] other ship?

Where do you go? 

[00:13:00] Tabitha: Yeah, I started going to other ship. 

[00:13:02] Zoe: Yeah. 

[00:13:03] Tabitha: Well, um, became a member. Started going really consistently. I also lived really close to one location. Really? Kind of to both. Yeah. Yeah. I was walking distance from Adelaide. Yorkville was like two stops. 

[00:13:12] Zoe: Yeah. 

[00:13:13] Tabitha: Cut three stops up. 

[00:13:14] Zoe: Mm-hmm. 

[00:13:14] Tabitha: So it was so easy.

And then I moved here and I'm like, I know I'm not gonna go as much. Mm-hmm. So I don't go as much. Mm-hmm. But I have tried out some other places around the city, like Alter. Mm-hmm. 

[00:13:25] Zoe: Mm-hmm. 

[00:13:25] Tabitha: I've been to a handful or so times, and then I'm gonna go to Sauna soon. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's on my list. It's on 

[00:13:32] Zoe: gear, right?

[00:13:33] Tabitha: Yeah. 

[00:13:33] Zoe: Yeah. I wanna check that one out too. Yeah. Maybe we should go. So you think that's like the change that went on in your life when you stopped taking antidepressants? That was, if you started moving your body more, you started being more in touch with yourself. So when you stopped the antidepressants, it didn't, you didn't feel the need to.

[00:13:50] Tabitha: Yeah. 

[00:13:50] Zoe: Which is interesting because my friend stopped, like had to switch her medication. Mm-hmm. And she was so depressed, like suicidal, even like, she was like, I need to [00:14:00] check myself into a hospital. Like I'm scared what I'm gonna do to myself. 

[00:14:03] Tabitha: Yeah. 

[00:14:03] Zoe: And I actually introduced her to other ship. Oh. And like it saved her.

She went like every day for two weeks. Wow. Like she, her mom even called me and was like, thank you for showing 

[00:14:11] Tabitha: Yeah. 

[00:14:12] Zoe: My friend other ship because she's like cured. 

[00:14:15] Heather: Okay. I will say though, I will say we can't, that's not like medical advice 'cause 

[00:14:20] Zoe: Yeah. And nothing we say is here. 

[00:14:22] Heather: Yeah. No, no, of course. But like if you just.

Cold plunge trying to get off medication. Yeah. Oh, she 

[00:14:29] Zoe: wasn't trying to get off. She wasn't. 

[00:14:31] Heather: Or trying to switch. Yeah. 

[00:14:32] Zoe: It was like when she was switching over in like that month time of like switching, it was like really hard on her body. 

[00:14:39] Tabitha: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:14:39] Zoe: And I think like going to the Hong Cold therapy, like really did help her, her, her.

Yeah. Have that transition. Mm-hmm. 

[00:14:45] Tabitha: Yeah. Yeah, I could see that. 

[00:14:47] Zoe: Yeah. 

[00:14:48] Tabitha: That's the, that's the only thing, like I can say that I was doing differently. Yeah. That kind of just started and then that, like, like I said, I don't recommend without, but it, but it just kind of happened for me. Mm-hmm. I think I, you know, I [00:15:00] was at the end of my prescription and, and I, I didn't go renew it and I didn't feel any side effects that I can recall.

I was on something else before that and that one I noticed side effects. Okay. But it wasn't, um, 

[00:15:13] Heather: is it SSRI? 

[00:15:14] Tabitha: It was Topiramate. Okay. And, um, what I found Topiramate did was like. It definitely slowed me down. 

[00:15:23] Heather: Mm. And 

[00:15:23] Tabitha: if I had like a compulsive thought of any kind, it's, instead of getting pulled into it, I, I'm very visual, but like it helped me just kind of 

[00:15:33] Heather: Yeah.

Mm. 

[00:15:33] Tabitha: Like stay on the surface and kind of like observe it and, 

[00:15:36] Heather: yeah. 

[00:15:37] Tabitha: Yeah. But it did, did slow me down. I remember like, ugh, for a year or so, it was like, what's that word again? 

[00:15:43] Heather: Holy 

[00:15:43] Tabitha: what 

[00:15:44] Heather: shit. 

[00:15:44] Tabitha: And I'm in the word business, so I was kind of like, ugh. Yeah. I don't know if I'm 

[00:15:49] Zoe: ever 

[00:15:49] Tabitha: gonna 

[00:15:49] Zoe: be 

[00:15:49] Tabitha: okay again. But know, you know, 

[00:15:51] Heather: that happens to me a lot where I'll just be like, we'll be having a conversation.

I go. Nope. 

[00:15:55] Zoe: Fell right 

[00:15:56] Heather: outta my head. Don't know. I was on it and I'm gone. 

[00:15:59] Zoe: Yeah. But that [00:16:00] happens to me too. And I, on anything, I mean, I realized we talk all day. I still do that now. I like that. 

[00:16:06] Heather: I know I don't have an 

[00:16:06] Zoe: excuse anymore. 

[00:16:08] Heather: I'm like, am I just paying attention? I think that maybe I'm not paying attention.

[00:16:11] Zoe: It's 'cause we like did too many drugs and drank too much guys. 

[00:16:14] Tabitha: It's 

[00:16:14] Zoe: right. That's the problem. 

[00:16:15] Tabitha: My boyfriend said the other day, we're having a, I won't say a fight, an honest conversation 

[00:16:20] Heather: reframe. Perfect. 

[00:16:21] Tabitha: And um, and he's like, and people have said this before, so I shouldn't have been surprised, but he's like, I just want you to know, so like how I observe you, like you walk down the street and you're in like this tab land.

[00:16:35] Heather: Mm-hmm. 

[00:16:35] Tabitha: And, and, and, and all you see is what matters. 

[00:16:37] Heather: Mm-hmm. 

[00:16:38] Tabitha: You, the dogs and me and in a, and like. He, she, he goes, this, here's where I'm different. I walk down the street and I'm like, this person's got a red sweater and that dog might come close to ours and dah, dah, dah. And he's like, I'm checking. Yeah.

Everything surroundings. I'm like, square footage of that building, da dah, dah, dah. Like, yeah. And he is like, you're like, la la la la la. Yeah. No, totally. And, and I find that [00:17:00] so interesting. Mm-hmm. Because I could see what, you know, where he is coming from. 

[00:17:03] Zoe: Mm-hmm. 

[00:17:03] Tabitha: But I also think that, it's funny that people observe me as like in this tab land, which I think they describe as like a happy, joyous, free place.

That's not exactly what it's like in all the time either. I am like thinking and my thoughts can be heavy. And I'm also thinking of like. You know, scenarios and like mm-hmm. You know, I'm worrying. 

[00:17:28] Heather: Mm-hmm. 

[00:17:28] Tabitha: But apparently people observe me as just like, 

[00:17:31] Heather: wow. 

[00:17:32] Tabitha: Being free and light and mm-hmm. Airy. And I'm like, mm.

[00:17:35] Heather: That's how I, that's how I see you. I mean, we've known each other for not that long. We've hung out one time. Yeah. But I, I, you have like a very, like, peachy pink aura, but I was just reading about, what is it called in invisibly? Unwell. Unwell. Which is a new book that you're publishing. Yes. When does that come out?

[00:17:56] Tabitha: March 3rd. 

[00:17:57] Heather: Okay. Okay. Oh, that's exciting. That's, [00:18:00] is that your boyfriend sober date? 

[00:18:02] Tabitha: I should know this. 

[00:18:04] Heather: Oh, it's right after, before mine, right? Yeah. So it 

[00:18:06] Zoe: must be, 

[00:18:07] Heather: yeah. Mine's March 5th. So is 

[00:18:08] Zoe: it? 

[00:18:09] Heather: Yeah. Yay. So soon. 

[00:18:10] Zoe: Okay. 

[00:18:10] Heather: But I was just reading about that and how it is like a woman's, I mean, you can talk about it a little more, but the, the.

The idea that like the women need to cope and need to be fine, but what's actually going on in there and presenting as however the world needs you to present. Mm-hmm. And show up. But there's a lot going on. 

[00:18:29] Tabitha: Yeah. 

[00:18:30] Heather: Yeah. Which is such an interesting segue. Yeah. 

[00:18:33] Tabitha: When Paige approached me, I was like, I'm so happy.

Somebody is like brave enough to share their experience around this and like start talking about it. And the first thing I said to her, this was like, start working together like two or three years ago, I was like, I want this to be like, just not about the book, but like the conversation people start raising their hands who like have felt very alone in how they feel.

[00:18:58] Heather: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

[00:18:58] Tabitha: And she found like [00:19:00] her stories about, you know, she's. What she considers people consider high achieving, high powered, whatever you wanna call it, woman. 

[00:19:07] Heather: Mm-hmm. 

[00:19:07] Tabitha: Who like silently has struggled with autoimmune and eating, disordered eating. Yeah. You know, and, um, and you know, what that's looked like.

Mm-hmm. And how she found her own path 

[00:19:19] Zoe: mm-hmm. 

[00:19:19] Tabitha: To healing, I think. 'cause she, she, you know, she dove into, I think one of the things with like. High powered, high achieving women, and mm-hmm. I think people pleasing comes into play too. Sure. Yeah. It is like, okay, you look at things as very dogmatic.

Prescriptive, like, this is how, what this article says to do, so I'm gonna like take exec, do exactly all these 10, 10 tips that the article suggest in this way. Or if it's yoga, it's gotta look a certain way. And she tried those things. Mm-hmm. And you know, ended up sort of. Realizing she needs to kind of create her own, you know, wellness plan.

Mm-hmm. 

[00:19:56] Heather: Yeah. 

[00:19:56] Tabitha: Um, to take care of herself because, you know, [00:20:00] she'd struggle with a few different things. 

[00:20:02] Heather: Yeah. Mm-hmm. 

[00:20:02] Tabitha: Um, and I liked that. 'cause I, I, I really relate to her a lot. Yeah. She told me her story and just like how she felt as a little, little page, like a little girl in the world. I was like, yeah, me too.

Me too, me too. So throughout her telling me her story and her writing her story and me reading it, I was like, yeah, I felt the same way. You know? 

[00:20:22] Heather: Mm-hmm. 

[00:20:22] Tabitha: Lives didn't look exactly the same, but like, very much relate to the feelings. 

[00:20:27] Zoe: Yeah. 

[00:20:27] Heather: It's interesting already that like, there are things that I relate to you on, and then there's things that, and I'm like, oh yeah.

Addiction or like sobriety. Yeah. Or these things, mental health. But then it's like, oh, no, I don't, that's not me at all. Like, I, I'm a person who. I'm, if I'm going through it, everyone fucking knows. Mm-hmm. I don't have that thing where I'm like, I can just push it down, push it down, and like excel. I'm like, oh, nope.

Today I'm gonna melt. 

[00:20:50] Zoe: Mm-hmm. 

[00:20:51] Heather: Um, and then the, like, the walking around in Tab Land, I'm more like your partner where I'm like, who's there? What's he doing? What's he thinking? Like, what's, you know, like I'm always very [00:21:00] vigilant about what's going on around me. 

[00:21:01] Zoe: Yeah. I feel like I'm a bit of both. 

Mm-hmm. 

[00:21:03] Zoe: I feel like I probably pr present as Tab land, but inside, like Yeah.

She's thinking a little bit. 

[00:21:10] Heather: Yeah. 

[00:21:11] Zoe: But if I have my, if I have my headphones in, no, I'm not. You're, I like, like, I'm just like focused on like where I'm going and just like nothing is happening around 

[00:21:20] Tabitha: me. 

Yeah. 

[00:21:21] Tabitha: Yeah. 

[00:21:21] Zoe: Yeah. 

[00:21:21] Heather: We'll get, we'll get into your publishing and books and stories a little more, but let's start with.

Substances. 

[00:21:29] Tabitha: Mm-hmm. 

[00:21:30] Heather: What is your relationship today to substances and alcohol? 

[00:21:34] Tabitha: I'm, uh, sober from all mine to altering substances besides coffee 

[00:21:38] Heather: if you consider, like, can't take everything from us. 

[00:21:41] Tabitha: Yeah. Yeah. Um, just for just over seven years. I celebrate seven years on January 7th. 

[00:21:47] Zoe: Oh, so amazing.

Congratulations. 

[00:21:49] Heather: Seven years. 

[00:21:50] Tabitha: Yeah. Okay. 

[00:21:50] Zoe: So you got sober like in the new year? 

[00:21:53] Tabitha: Uh, yeah. So the reason it's January 7th is because my New Year's Eve ended. The e like the [00:22:00] evening of January 6th. 

[00:22:01] Zoe: Okay. 

[00:22:02] Tabitha: But let's officially say it's say's a long New 

[00:22:03] Zoe: Year's Eve. 

[00:22:04] Tabitha: Oh, yeah. That's what it was like for you though, once I, at that time.

Mm-hmm. You know, that's how it got, it was like, once I started, I had zero control over how long I, you know, used for, or how much I used, like it was, um, and the last one was especially terrifying. 

[00:22:23] Heather: Mm-hmm. 

[00:22:23] Tabitha: So that was, yeah, January 7th was my day. I remember, I, I didn't plan to drink New Year's Eve. 

[00:22:28] Heather: Mm. Really?

[00:22:29] Tabitha: Yeah. I was going to dinner with, um, the guy I was dating at the time, and, you know, I'm not drinking tonight. Okay. Well, you know, he's normy. Mm-hmm. I won't drink too easy. Okay. You know, doesn't think twice about it. And as soon as we sat down, I was like, I'll have an Negroni. And he's like, I thought you weren't drinking.

I've done this dance before with him and others. You know, they're like, I thought you weren't drinking. 

[00:22:49] Zoe: Yeah. 

[00:22:50] Tabitha: Well, I want to. 

[00:22:51] Zoe: Yeah. 

Mm-hmm. 

[00:22:51] Tabitha: And that just proceeded, you know? Yeah. Into like, yeah. 

[00:22:55] Heather: How do you go from New Year's Eve to. To January 6th. 

[00:22:59] Tabitha: Well, what it [00:23:00] was like, it was like once I started one Negroni turned into another, turned into another, and then, you know, uh, dinner turned into, oh, where should we go next?

Mm-hmm. And he is like, well, home. And I'm like, no, let's dance. 

[00:23:12] Heather: Yeah. 

[00:23:12] Tabitha: Turned into, uh, I was in, in Toronto, uh, turned into the Four Seasons. 

[00:23:18] Heather: Oh. 

[00:23:18] Tabitha: And I, you know, that was part of my thing. It was like, you know, go somewhere where people might have what I want next. Yeah. Which is, you know, cocaine. 

[00:23:26] Heather: Mm-hmm. 

[00:23:27] Tabitha: Um, I don't know if you want me to use that term or like Yeah, 

[00:23:30] Heather: yeah, yeah, yeah.

All the terms. There's no, 

[00:23:31] Tabitha: yeah. Don have to censor yourself at all. Yeah, I'm pretty open about it. And, um, you know, in there, and then I could call someone, I could sneak away. Mm-hmm. And, you know, that was my, my, and then, you know, once I got started, it was like, I had no control, like I said. And I was at the time back, uh, from Miami, but staying with my family, uh, the family home.

So that's where I went back there. I think I, you know, picked a little fight with him. Did that, so [00:24:00] like, it was like, 

[00:24:00] Heather: yeah, 

[00:24:01] Tabitha: leave me alone. Leave me alone, kind of thing. Word writing. 

[00:24:03] Heather: Yeah. 

[00:24:03] Tabitha: Um, and then, and that was one of the things, like I, I, I, I lived in secrecy. Mm-hmm. You know, at that point, I think. They knew something was going on, but they didn't really know or wanna know the Exactly, exactly.

[00:24:17] Zoe: Mm-hmm. 

[00:24:17] Tabitha: So then I'm in my family home and I'm in my cycle and I can't get out of it. So I'm sneaking around, I'm trying to be like ships in the night, like they wake up and I stay in my room and they leave, and then I come out and da da. Mm-hmm. And that went on for days. And like that was one of the things I said I never do.

Like, I never, I never let a, I never do this in front of them or around them, and I couldn't, 

[00:24:40] Zoe: yeah. 

[00:24:40] Tabitha: I had no control. You 

[00:24:41] Zoe: crossed those boundaries with yourself and then there's no going back. Right? 

[00:24:45] Tabitha: Mm-hmm. And those seven days were like, crossed a lot of the lines that I, I'd, you know, said I would never cross and 

[00:24:51] Zoe: mm-hmm.

[00:24:51] Tabitha: They were, it was a pretty maddening week, I guess you could say from like. You know, writing letters to say goodbye. Mm-hmm. 'cause I [00:25:00] thought, you know, that would be, you know, this was gonna be it for me. 

[00:25:03] Heather: Mm-hmm. 

[00:25:04] Tabitha: Um, to like melt downs to, you know, uh, breaking into my parents' room and taking money. Mm-hmm. And like, um, just all these things.

I was like, I'll never do this. Yeah. I'll never do this. Yeah. It ha it just started 

[00:25:20] Zoe: Yeah. 

[00:25:21] Tabitha: Happening. 

[00:25:22] Zoe: Yeah. 

[00:25:22] Tabitha: And, um, and I, but yet I couldn't stop. And even despite these like big dramatic, you know, I'm in tears and throwing up and parents are in tears. What's, yeah. You know, I'm like, that's gotta be it. But I ha it was crazy how this, like, it had taken over me.

Yeah. It was so strong. I remember like, despite all that, I couldn't stop and I finally. Passed out like for like, I, I don't know, hours. Yeah. And I woke up, I guess it's January 6th. And, um, you know, I become aware as my eyes are opening, like my sister's there. Mm-hmm. And so, you [00:26:00] know, normally I'd be like, you know, we got, but my arm reached out.

To grab the bottle, my stuff. 

[00:26:06] Heather: Mm-hmm. 

[00:26:07] Tabitha: Yeah. Yeah. You were in front of her. 

[00:26:08] Heather: Oh my god, Mike. 

[00:26:08] Tabitha: And the first thing she said was like, she was holding the phone and she's looked at me and she's like, everything's gone. And I'm like, the panic of like, where is it? 

[00:26:17] Heather: Yeah. 

[00:26:17] Tabitha: And then the next thing, I guess, she was on the phone with someone and the first thing she said was like, my sister, she's an addict.

[00:26:24] Heather: Mm-hmm. Oh. 

[00:26:24] Tabitha: And it was like my heart. But I think at that point there was also then this lifting because it was like, yeah, there it is. Yeah. 

[00:26:34] Heather: Yeah. 

[00:26:34] Tabitha: Like, she me worth finally saying it. 

[00:26:37] Heather: Mm-hmm. 

[00:26:37] Tabitha: And she was, you know, on the phone looking for somewhere that could help me. 

[00:26:42] Heather: Mm-hmm. 

[00:26:42] Tabitha: And that was like, okay, she, she found a place and it was a pack, a bag, and I was like, panic.

[00:26:48] Heather: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

[00:26:49] Tabitha: Panic. Like, what do you mean? First of all, I can barely walk. 

[00:26:52] Heather: Mm-hmm. 

[00:26:53] Tabitha: You know? 'cause just what I put myself through over those days. 

[00:26:56] Heather: Yeah. 

[00:26:57] Tabitha: And, you know, fear, fear, fear, fear, [00:27:00] fear. I like. Um, should you have to take a shower, you know? Mm-hmm. Look yourself. I remember being terrified. 

[00:27:08] Zoe: Yeah. Was this a younger or older sister?

Like 

[00:27:11] Tabitha: she younger? Were you close with 

[00:27:12] Zoe: her's? 

[00:27:12] Tabitha: Wow. We were, yeah. Like our relationship was definitely fractured. 

[00:27:16] Zoe: Yeah. 

[00:27:16] Tabitha: Over the some years. But like, I'd still say, um, you know, she was one of the closest people to me. 

[00:27:24] Heather: Mm-hmm. 

[00:27:25] Tabitha: She did my parents basically. Why that she, they said she's gotta go and they left. I think it was a work day.

The parents were gone. They kind of sent her to like, take care of it. Mm-hmm. She's gotta go. 

[00:27:38] Zoe: Yeah. 

[00:27:38] Tabitha: Because it got so bad and they had no idea what to do. And she did what I say is like the hardest thing, but like the best thing anyone's done for me because she was like, that's it, she needs help. We can't give it to her.

Somebody else can and like, you know, didn't know a whole lot about it. Mm-hmm. And she's a smart girl, you know? She's 

[00:27:59] Heather: very [00:28:00] brave. 

[00:28:00] Tabitha: Yeah. She 

[00:28:00] Heather: was a big swing. Yeah, 

[00:28:01] Tabitha: she got me packed. I mean, I remember my health card was probably missing 'cause I lost everything at that point. She took me quickly to get a new one replaced.

[00:28:10] Heather: Wow. 

[00:28:10] Tabitha: Wow. Could barely came my eyes open or walk or sit in the chair in Service Ontario. Got my health card, drove me there, like, make sure I got there on time. Had everything I need. Checked my bag five times to make sure I hadn't somehow 

[00:28:22] Zoe: Yeah, 

[00:28:23] Heather: yeah. 

[00:28:24] Tabitha: And um, 

[00:28:25] Heather: truly, 

[00:28:26] Tabitha: and that was it. And you know, I think once I got through those doors of the detox, something just kind of like, I don't know, I had this feeling of like, I'm okay.

[00:28:35] Heather: Yeah. 

[00:28:35] Tabitha: And I'm safe. And I woke up the next day. I didn't know about detox. I hadn't been, I'd heard about it, didn't really know. But I woke up, I showered, I made my bed, I got dressed and they looked at me and they're like. What, what are you doing? I'm like, I'm ready. And they're like, well, you're gonna be here for like three days, like in this bed.

Yeah. Yeah. Like, what? I feel great. I'm ready. Like, take me to a meeting. Yeah. Take treatment. Yeah. Like, it [00:29:00] doesn't work that way, honey. Slow down, you know? Have breakfast. Yeah. And then calm down. Yeah. 

[00:29:06] Heather: You said something before about writing letters saying goodbye. Are you, were you talking about mm-hmm. Like dying?

Mm-hmm. Or, oh, you were? Okay. 

[00:29:15] Tabitha: Yeah. 

[00:29:15] Heather: So you, you were feeling that like you had hurt yourself so much with substances. 

[00:29:20] Tabitha: I was planning to, you know, I don't, I feel like it's so harsh to say it, but yeah. I was planning to, you know, end my life. Mm-hmm. I didn't exactly know how I sort of flirted with different ways.

[00:29:36] Heather: Yeah. 

[00:29:36] Tabitha: Um, there's the first time during those seven days, I like. Cut myself. Mm-hmm. I'd never done that before. Mm-hmm. I'd heard a lot about it, and that was the thing, I was crossing these lines that I'm like, I'll never do this. I'll never do that. I'll never do. I was terrified of death. 

[00:29:50] Zoe: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:29:50] Tabitha: So, like, for me, I'm like the thought of it and I, I had like panic attacks over that Yeah.

When I was in university. 

[00:29:56] Zoe: Mm-hmm. 

[00:29:57] Tabitha: So that was me 

[00:29:58] Heather: too. 

[00:29:58] Tabitha: Yeah. [00:30:00] Still, still it's me sometimes, but it's better. 

[00:30:02] Heather: Yeah. 

[00:30:02] Tabitha: But I'd have it in like the mall and with my friends or in the car and be like, like what we were just talking about, like what to get for lunch. 

[00:30:11] Heather: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:30:12] Tabitha: Um, 

[00:30:13] Heather: and then you start realizing that, like, that fear, it's like, well, I'm gonna do it to myself, but it's like I have control over it, but I don't.

Mm-hmm. And now I'm scared. That's a very weird cycle to be in. Yeah. And very, it's like a Tasmanian devil. It's not. 

[00:30:27] Zoe: Yeah. 

[00:30:28] Tabitha: And those letters were like amends, you know? Mm-hmm. I remember like, it's interesting who I chose to write to. 'cause it was like the things that were definitely. Weighing on me, you know, the shame, like the things I thought about when I was in my cycle.

Yeah. Of like using, I think about like my regrets and what I didn't say, or you know, how I screwed up some relationship or, 

[00:30:51] Zoe: yeah. 

[00:30:52] Tabitha: You know, and so a lot of them were like, apologies, you know? Was it 

[00:30:55] Zoe: mostly to like family, friends? Family, friends, 

[00:30:58] Tabitha: relationships? Yeah. Some [00:31:00] relationships, stuff like that. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. 

[00:31:02] Zoe: Just all of it. 

[00:31:02] Tabitha: All your, yeah. All that I was holding in like I wanted them to know like my intentions were good 

[00:31:09] Zoe: Yeah. 

[00:31:09] Tabitha: Kind of thing. Like I'm a 

[00:31:11] Zoe: good person. 

[00:31:12] Tabitha: Yeah. Or like u of it and that's how I see you and I regret this and Yeah. 

[00:31:17] Heather: Yeah. 

[00:31:18] Zoe: Um, when your sister said, like, my sister is an addict, do you think her knowing that.

Made you feel like, okay. Like she knows, like, I don't need to like admit to anything because like she's, she can see me. Like, was that, were you, did you feel safe when she said that on the phone? 

[00:31:38] Tabitha: I feel like my heart kind of broke. 

[00:31:40] Zoe: Yeah. Mm-hmm. 

[00:31:41] Tabitha: And then there was this like lifting. 

[00:31:43] Zoe: Yeah. Like it broke to be uplifted again.

Like 

[00:31:46] Tabitha: Yeah. 

[00:31:47] Zoe: Sort of 

thing. 

[00:31:47] Tabitha: Because this was like, between us, it's one of those things, like the elephant in the room thing. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's like we're not talking about, we're not saying we don't wanna look at, yeah. And it was like. I don't know. I wasn't living a very honest life. Of course 

[00:31:59] Zoe: not. 

[00:31:59] Tabitha: And then [00:32:00] all of a sudden that was where like, that was how, but I wanted to.

[00:32:03] Zoe: Yeah. 

[00:32:04] Tabitha: And that was how I, I felt why I felt so tragic. 

[00:32:06] Zoe: Yeah. Mm-hmm. 

[00:32:07] Tabitha: It was kind of like, this is the beginning. Like first it's the admitting Yeah. 

[00:32:11] Zoe: Yeah. 

[00:32:11] Tabitha: You know, it's like saying it out loud. Something about, and I'd said it in the rooms 'cause I'd been in and out of the program. 

[00:32:18] Zoe: Mm. 

[00:32:18] Tabitha: But like, it was something about her saying it and you know, that like, made it, this is it resonated kind of thing.

Yeah. Like, you know, a little sister that I remember her being born. Yeah. 

[00:32:28] Zoe: For, I remember for sure 

[00:32:29] Tabitha: I crawled into her crib. 

[00:32:30] Zoe: Mm-hmm. You know? 

[00:32:31] Tabitha: Mm-hmm. Because I wanted, wanted to be close to her. I just wanted like, 

[00:32:34] Zoe: yeah. 

[00:32:34] Tabitha: It was something about yeah. Her. 

[00:32:37] Zoe: Hmm. That's so beautiful. It all had to 

[00:32:39] Tabitha: happen. The way it happened too.

[00:32:41] Zoe: Yeah. We were saying that earlier, like if it happened any other way, any of our stories, like 

[00:32:46] Heather: mm-hmm. 

[00:32:47] Zoe: I don't wanna know how it would've turned out. Yeah. Everything in our lives really has happened just the way it's supposed to, and that's like why 

[00:32:55] Heather: Lucky. 

[00:32:55] Zoe: The miracle too, for me is during those 

[00:32:58] Tabitha: like six, seven days.[00:33:00] 

I mean, I had all these opportunities to go, like, it was tough at that point. 'cause a lot of my using was just done alone. 

[00:33:06] Heather: Mm-hmm. 

[00:33:07] Tabitha: Because of the fact that I couldn't really leave. Once I started, it was sort of like I used to and I disappear. I go here and there and this party and that after party, it got to a point where I, I couldn't do that all that much.

Same with me. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It was 

[00:33:20] Zoe: a going out girl until like, going out. I was like, oh, I can't wait to go home to do this by myself. 

[00:33:26] Tabitha: Yeah. 

[00:33:26] Zoe: You know, 

[00:33:26] Tabitha: leave me alone and just let me do it how I do it. And what was your drug of choice? Like? Were you an alcoholic? It was alcohol and cocaine. Yeah. Is that like combination?

Um, you know, at one point, like closer to the end, if I could choose one or the other, it would would be cocaine. 

[00:33:43] Heather: Yeah. Okay. 

[00:33:44] Tabitha: Mm-hmm. That's what I thought. 

[00:33:45] Heather: Interesting. 

[00:33:45] Tabitha: Alcohol is like, yeah. If I can, you know, it's great. It's better when it's, when I have it, what it, but that's the thing that, um, once I start, I can't stop.

Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:33:57] Heather: How did you get started with mm-hmm. 

[00:33:59] Tabitha: [00:34:00] Uh, 

[00:34:00] Heather: substances. 

[00:34:01] Tabitha: It's crazy because, um, my father is abstinent today. Mm-hmm. And so like that whole story and the, our, our story, I guess, and like hearing from a young age the words like addict mm-hmm. And binging, and they were achy. And so I kind of, you know, was very scared of drugs.

I'll never do them. Mm-hmm. I'll never do drugs. I'll never do drugs. Yeah. And they just kind of like, I don't know, entered my life in a graceful way. Mm-hmm. Like disguised as like something pretty. Mm-hmm. You know, girl, I remember. Uh, girls in my sorority were like, we're gonna do, um, you know, Molly and like, but they were the nice girls.

Molly. 

[00:34:41] Zoe: Such pretty words, you know, 

[00:34:41] Tabitha: Molly, 

[00:34:42] Zoe: it's so pretty. 

[00:34:43] Tabitha: They were the nice girls. Yeah, they were the good, the good ones. 

[00:34:47] Zoe: Not everyone, 

[00:34:48] Tabitha: they were bad and good, but they were the like whole more wholesome. And so when they introduced it and I'm like, oh, you do this? 

[00:34:54] Zoe: Yeah. 

[00:34:55] Tabitha: And it was the most pure organic kind from [00:35:00] Montreal.

So it was just like introduced to me and we'll be together. Yeah. And okay maybe. 

[00:35:06] Heather: Mm-hmm. 

[00:35:06] Tabitha: And that was like, I at that point really loved alcohol. Mm-hmm. And thought it was like a solution to 

[00:35:12] Heather: Yeah. You 

[00:35:13] Tabitha: know, how I felt inside. But the thing with alcohol is I couldn't binge because I could binge in a way where it was like, I went out last night and then I'm gonna go out tonight and the next night.

Mm-hmm. But. I couldn't drink a into like my body would just be like, you're done. And I'd get sick and then I'd have a terrible hangover and then it'd go away. And then, you know, when I did. And so I remember drinking, feeling like the solution. But when I first did Molly, it was like, no, no, this is like the medicine 

[00:35:43] Zoe: because you can stay up all night because you don't like get sick.

[00:35:48] Tabitha: Yes. And I felt like all of a sudden. I could share honestly how I felt. 

[00:35:55] Zoe: Yeah. Mm-hmm. 

[00:35:56] Tabitha: And that was a problem. Yeah. And it was like, I felt safe when I [00:36:00] did it and good. And the more I did it, the better I felt. Mm-hmm. And I actually remember that night being at this party with the girls and all we did was sit and talk and probably like rub our legs.

Yeah. We didn't 

[00:36:11] Zoe: drink nothing. Yeah. 

[00:36:13] Heather: Yeah. Just making little fires. 

[00:36:15] Zoe: No, I remember in high school me and all my friends, like probably five of us, were like, just tripping on Molly. And yeah, we were probably just like doing that. And like, I think we all made out with each other of course. And like, I don't know what else we did, but we were up for hours and hours.

Hours just like sitting in my pink room. Like this is the best thing ever. 

[00:36:34] Heather: It's very confusing when you're like, I ha I have a dad who's very nervous about everything. Yeah. And he taught us like. If you drink, you, you're probably, you could be allergic to it and then you'll die. Like, that's how we were raised, and I had a lot of fear around everything, all substances, especially drugs.

Drugs were never even gonna be in my mm-hmm. Horizon. Mm-hmm. I was like, that's crazy. That's for bad people. 

[00:36:56] Tabitha: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

[00:36:57] Heather: It's really weird when you see people who you look [00:37:00] up to or think are good people using 

[00:37:04] Zoe: Yeah, 

[00:37:04] Heather: yeah. Or doing cocaine or doing Molly or over drinking. Mm-hmm. And you're like, well, wait, this is not, you're not dead.

You're not. Yeah. You're 

[00:37:12] Zoe: okay. 

[00:37:13] Heather: Yeah. You're not, you're a good level. Yeah. No one's mad at you. You're getting up. I, I'm a, I was a dancer in college, so you, you're getting up, you're going to rehearsal. 

[00:37:21] Zoe: Yeah. 

[00:37:21] Heather: You're being put in the front of things, what's going on, and it's like, wait, wait, wait. Like in the sorority, it's like, these are good girls.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. This is not the demonic using caricature that I thought, you know? Exactly. Yeah. It's all Yankee. Yeah. Like you said, it's, it's very confusing and then you do it and. You find home in yourself. Mm-hmm. And you're now I feel comfy. 

[00:37:42] Tabitha: Yeah. And that's the thing that, that experience sort of opened the door to the fact that, you know, I, I wasn't, I'm in Tablon now, I was in Tablon then too of like, I didn't know.

[00:37:51] Zoe: Yeah. 

[00:37:52] Tabitha: I'm at these parties and that most, you know, I'd say most people were, you know, fucked, indulging in some type of substance other than [00:38:00] alcohol. So it was that, that kinda opened the door to like, oh, they're all, 

[00:38:04] Zoe: mm-hmm. 

[00:38:04] Tabitha: Especially when cocaine came into the picture, it was like, wait, you do it. You do is like the secret club.

And I'm deeply insecure. Mm-hmm. From a young age, I have this, like, all I wanna do is fit in. Yeah. And you to like me. 'cause I never feel like anyone likes me. And that was like, well then do this maybe, or we're part of something now. This is how people bond. Yeah. And I thought maybe the reason I feel so is because I haven't been doing this.

[00:38:31] Zoe: Yeah. 

[00:38:31] Tabitha: And then combined with like doing this feels like the answer to all my problems. Mm-hmm. You know, I wanna do as much as I can. And at first it felt like the solution, 'cause it was like I'm able to say the things I wanna say. Like I always wanted to compliment people. Mm. But I didn't know if I'm gonna say sound weird or whatever.

[00:38:52] Zoe: Yeah. 

[00:38:53] Tabitha: So I never said it. Yeah. And probably, you know, I dunno what people thought, but I was worried about what other people thought. Of course. And it [00:39:00] let me say how I felt. Yeah. And I felt like it was received well. Mm-hmm. And like 

[00:39:05] Zoe: very good intention. Right. 

[00:39:06] Tabitha: It's just the thing that was missing, you know, I just need something else.

[00:39:10] Zoe: Yeah. Yeah. I felt that so much with alcohol. 

[00:39:12] Tabitha: Mm-hmm. 

[00:39:13] Zoe: Going back to your dad, how was he sober? When you, like, were starting all like your drinking and using 

[00:39:20] Tabitha: Uh, no, that was the thing. We definitely a period we're str, struggling. Well, I didn't really say, I couldn't say at that time, I, I thought I was struggling.

Yeah, we were definitely using, at the same time, relationships, you know, really fractured, really bad. 

[00:39:34] Heather: Mm-hmm. 

[00:39:35] Tabitha: I mean, all his relationships were. 

[00:39:36] Heather: Mm-hmm. 

[00:39:37] Tabitha: He, God, it's funny, the last time he used, um, he had a seizure. He would've died if he was alone. He had, it was one of the many times he, I don't wanna tell his story too much, but 

[00:39:52] Zoe: Sure.

Yeah. 

[00:39:53] Tabitha: I think it's okay to say many times he tried to stop, my grandmother had been there through, for him, through his whole life, through [00:40:00] everything. He had one of those like, that's it. Moment. Yeah. And he went over to her house. 

[00:40:06] Heather: Mm-hmm. 

[00:40:07] Tabitha: Thankfully, because he gets there and he sits down. He has one of the con, he's had the conversation many times with her, it's bad and I need help.

And she goes, okay, I know the deal. Like, let's find a place for you. And then he collapses. 

[00:40:21] Zoe: Wow. 

[00:40:22] Tabitha: A seizure. And, um, and it, so, you know, he goes to the hospital. I remember it was a Friday night. I was, I had a corporate job at that point. 

[00:40:30] Zoe: Mm-hmm. 

[00:40:30] Tabitha: I called her after work. Um, I'd actually started already drinking using that night.

[00:40:36] Heather: Yeah. Mm-hmm. 

[00:40:37] Tabitha: And that's what I did when I drank. And I used, I was a good granddaughter. I was a good sister, I was a good daughter. Like I was a good 'cause I could show up Yeah. And call people and check in and out outside of that. Yeah. I was low. 

[00:40:50] Zoe: Yeah. 

[00:40:50] Tabitha: And I couldn't do those things. Yeah. 

[00:40:53] Zoe: Do you think you had to hide it?

Like you said you did because you knew your dad, like, didn't hide it well. [00:41:00] Like do you think that had like a play in it at all? 

[00:41:02] Tabitha: Yeah. And like, I don't want you to know that. 

[00:41:04] Zoe: Yeah. 

[00:41:05] Tabitha: Like this is my kind of secret Yeah. Weapon that's allowing me to Yeah. And there's definitely shame around it too. 

Yeah. 

[00:41:13] Tabitha: Like I called her and she's told me what was happening.

They were at the hospital and so I went but under the influence. Mm-hmm. And also with like a lot of judgment. Yeah. Like, look at you here, you know, you better get your shit together. But 

[00:41:28] Zoe: then you yourself are under the influence, like all the same trajectory as him. 

[00:41:32] Tabitha: Not knowing that I'm headed in that direction too.

Mm-hmm. Like, but uh, you know, 'cause I got this and I have my, my job and I live here. Yeah. And this is my boyfriend. Yeah. And I look at my life and like, but I'm like very soon after. So that was it for him. That was the last Okay. He went to treatment again and he's been abstine. Wow. Since it's been about just over 10 years.

[00:41:55] Heather: Wow. 

[00:41:56] Tabitha: Yeah. Good for 

[00:41:56] Heather: him. Do 

[00:41:57] Tabitha: you his life dramatically changed. I love that. [00:42:00] Dramatically. Like, wow. 

Do 

[00:42:01] Heather: you have a good relationship with him now, or? 

[00:42:03] Tabitha: It's definitely the best it's been. Okay. 

[00:42:05] Heather: Wow. 

[00:42:05] Tabitha: But I'll, I'll say honestly, the tough thing is, um, and I had to have a honest conversation with him over the holidays.

Mm-hmm. It was, um, you know, abstinence doesn't mean emotional wellness. 

[00:42:19] Zoe: Mm-hmm. 

[00:42:19] Tabitha: And there's like. I feel like when I'm with him, there's like this, even if he could be in a good mood. 

[00:42:26] Zoe: Yeah. 

[00:42:27] Tabitha: I feel like there's deep sadness and this deep like unrest inside of him. 

[00:42:31] Zoe: Yeah. 

[00:42:31] Tabitha: And that comes out as like anger. 

[00:42:33] Zoe: Yeah.

[00:42:34] Tabitha: Okay. And like yeah. Rage or verbal attacks. 

[00:42:37] Zoe: Yeah. 

[00:42:38] Tabitha: And that's where I walking on eggshells around him all the time. Um, and not to discre, just because you're 

[00:42:44] Zoe: sober doesn't mean like you don't have way more work to do, you know? Totally. 

[00:42:48] Tabitha: Yeah, there's no, um, I don't believe he has a program or goes to meetings or has any support.

So like, so I said, um, you know, basically with the help of Cha g pt, because [00:43:00] it's tough to find the words and the words of, of people, like women in the program. I've worked with authors who are also in recovery that I've worked with, and what I've learned from their books. It's like, I can't change him, but I can help create the conditions for change, right?

[00:43:12] Zoe: Mm-hmm. 

[00:43:13] Tabitha: By boundary setting. 

[00:43:15] Zoe: Mm-hmm. 

[00:43:15] Tabitha: Compassionate, you know, loving boundary setting and that look like, you know, listen, I, I, I can no longer tolerate. Anger, verbal attacks. Yeah. Just, and because it deeply affects me. Yeah. And that was the most true thing I said, like, it had deeply affected me for years.

[00:43:31] Zoe: Mm-hmm. 

[00:43:31] Tabitha: And so, and I said, when it happens, I'm, I, I'll have to leave. Mm-hmm. Just so you know. And I do hope that you get some like professional support or recovery because, but the choice is yours. 

[00:43:43] Zoe: Yeah. 

Yeah. 

[00:43:43] Tabitha: And that, that was it. And he started to get into a little bit of family and I said family, his mother resentment stuff.

And I was like, these are the types of conversations Right. I won't be a part of. Yeah. I can't be a part of. 

[00:43:54] Zoe: Mm-hmm. 

[00:43:54] Tabitha: And it just gave me a bit of confidence to know like, I had a plan, I have a plan now. Yeah. If this happens, [00:44:00] I leave. Yeah. I've said it. He knows. 

[00:44:02] Zoe: Yeah. 

[00:44:02] Tabitha: That's what I do. 

[00:44:04] Heather: Wow. 

[00:44:04] Tabitha: Um, because I had a hard time with that before.

[00:44:06] Zoe: Yeah. 

[00:44:06] Tabitha: Before I got sober boundaries, I try to push back. Yeah. 

[00:44:09] Heather: Yeah. 

[00:44:09] Tabitha: You know? 

[00:44:10] Zoe: Yeah. I'll yell louder. Yeah. 

[00:44:11] Tabitha: And then I'd cry and run away. 

[00:44:13] Heather: Yeah. Right. 

[00:44:14] Tabitha: Well, that's great. 

[00:44:15] Heather: Well, this is interesting now, so your, your dad. Has a collapse. 

[00:44:20] Tabitha: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

[00:44:20] Heather: And I was reading that you have this also physical slash to me metaphorical collapse.

[00:44:28] Tabitha: Oh, yeah. 

[00:44:29] Heather: On a plane. 

[00:44:30] Tabitha: Yeah. 

[00:44:31] Heather: Do you wanna tell us what happened there? 

[00:44:33] Tabitha: Oh, yeah. That was, um, that was after his collapse, I believe. Yeah. 

[00:44:39] Heather: Mm-hmm. 

[00:44:39] Tabitha: It definitely had to be after, um, maybe even not that long now, everything blurred together, but of course, yeah. I, uh, my partner boyfriend at the time was from Texas, lived in Toronto for the most part.

Like we lived together in Toronto. Mm-hmm. But was, we were both there a lot. Mm-hmm. For some reason he was there. Um, [00:45:00] I was back home. I was working in a job that, uh, before, this is just the beginning. This started life to paper. 

[00:45:10] Zoe: Right. 

[00:45:10] Tabitha: Because I, I got, had a job, got fired. Got another one. 'cause my using, yeah, they never like outright said it.

Mm-hmm. And I kept it hidden, but it was like, okay, where are you on Friday? Yeah. Like, 

[00:45:24] Zoe: yeah, 

[00:45:24] Tabitha: you didn't show up, don't show up on Fridays, and now it's sometimes Mondays and like, um, or just random other odd behavior. Right. Yeah. Um, 

[00:45:33] Zoe: was this boyfriend in Texas and Normie? 

[00:45:35] Tabitha: No. Okay. No, he was, no, he's, I, I think I'm okay to say he is one, like one of us.

Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, um. When I started dating him, I think it's not his fault in any way. 

[00:45:48] Zoe: Yeah. 

[00:45:48] Tabitha: But that's when things kicked off for me and that's when I feel like I can remember the day I like crossed a line and where I couldn't stop. 

[00:45:56] Zoe: Yeah. 

[00:45:57] Tabitha: Um, I'd sort of go out and we'd socialize and it was [00:46:00] fun and I'd drink and.

And drug. And, and then I'd go to bed. 

[00:46:03] Zoe: Mm-hmm. 

[00:46:04] Tabitha: And like, um, it was actually when he was in treatment for one of the, one of the times he was in treatment, we were together that while he was away that I crossed that line, like one day turned night, turned into the next day. Right. That And I'm like, 

[00:46:17] Zoe: yeah. And 

[00:46:18] Tabitha: I'm sitting there and I'm like, he's in this like mental health treatment facility in the US and I'm here and I'm partying for 48 hours.

I can't stop. And Yeah. But it's okay. It's okay. I'm just doing this 'cause I'm upset. Yeah. Course I'm upset. Of course I'm going through a lot. 'cause he's gone. Always a 

[00:46:31] Zoe: reason. Yeah. 

[00:46:32] Tabitha: Yeah. He's going through all I'm thinking of him, poor him. Mm-hmm. He's, you know, men in white that check on him in the night.

He's telling me these things. It's scary. Mm-hmm. And I'm, you know, going through a lot. Mm-hmm. And the plain thing was, you know, he, um, this is a little further down, maybe a year or so later, uh, he's in Texas and I'm, I'm working in this job. I get fired again. Mm-hmm. And um, you know, so, um. I, basically, I'm out, I'm partying and [00:47:00] uh, I've planned to go down there on whatever date.

So I'm hopefully like I can stop by then I managed to stop. Mm-hmm. Maybe a day before I have to leave, but of course I need that whole day to recover. 

[00:47:12] Zoe: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:47:13] Tabitha: And that whole day before I left was like in bed. Or ordering food. Yeah. And I'm thinking at that point, like, you know, I eat, I sleep, I'm okay after that.

Mm-hmm. So I, you know, go to the airport and get on the plane and I start feeling like trouble breathing. And it was a flight to, uh, Dallas and Dallas Switch to San Antonio. Mm-hmm. Didn't have a direct flight at that point. So I, I just get worse and worse and worse over that, over that period. Mm-hmm. And like, um, on that flight.

And this woman next to me gives me these like, nausea things. Oh, you're just nauseous. Yeah. This will help. Nothing helps. Nothing helps. I can't breathe. I take out the bag. 

[00:47:53] Heather: Okay. 

[00:47:53] Tabitha: Walk. You know, I think it was when I was walking up 'cause I felt sick as well to go to the bathroom [00:48:00] that. It happened. I guess it's all kind of blurry.

[00:48:04] Zoe: You like 

[00:48:04] Tabitha: faint? I, yeah. I think I like collapsed in the bathroom. 

[00:48:08] Zoe: Oh my god. 

[00:48:09] Tabitha: Scary. And all I know is that like, you know, they brought me off the plane and into an ambulance and I was on my way. 

[00:48:15] Zoe: Wow. 

[00:48:16] Tabitha: And I was kinda like, and I remember them masking me like, are you under the influence? Mm-hmm. And I mean, I wasn't, yeah.

I mean, I hadn't been in like a day. Yeah, 

[00:48:25] Heather: yeah. 

[00:48:26] Tabitha: But stuff was in your system. 

[00:48:27] Heather: Yeah. You're like, literally no. 

[00:48:29] Tabitha: Like I can 

[00:48:30] Heather: confidently say no. 

[00:48:31] Tabitha: Yeah. I did. I, I couldn't admit it. Yeah. I could not admit it. Even like, you know, in a different country, in a city I wasn't. You know, headed toward, I'm in Dallas, not, yeah.

You know, I couldn't, still couldn't admit it. And so I went to this, you know, little hospital. He flew out to pick me up and people were still kind of like, you know, his family and him were kind of like, what's going on with her? Mm-hmm. What's going on with her? Mm-hmm. And, um, you know, I had to admit, I had to admit I got fired.

[00:48:59] Heather: Mm-hmm. 

[00:48:59] Tabitha: [00:49:00] Um, but even then it wasn't like I got fired because, you know mm-hmm. I haven't been able to show up. Yeah. And it's been weird. It was like 

[00:49:06] Heather: half truths. 

[00:49:07] Tabitha: It's their fault. Yeah. And the company's new and weird and disorganized and whatever. Mm-hmm. His mom was really compassionate and kind, was like, and also I think had been through some stuff with her son was like, she lived in Vancouver, not in Texas, and was like, um, oh.

Why don't you come out and spend some time with me, not with him. Leave him just you and me. I feel like you need some time with me. And I was like, yeah, that's nice. 

[00:49:33] Zoe: Yeah. 

[00:49:33] Tabitha: So I went there after, and I spent, I didn't know how long I was gonna stay or anything, but I spent, ended up spending about a month or so there.

[00:49:42] Zoe: Wow. 

[00:49:42] Tabitha: And she recommended that I meet with, um, you know, this man who, I was her brother, but she said, if you're okay with it, you know, he's really special. He's really good at what he does. And I came to learn, he is like a psychotherapist. 

[00:49:57] Heather: Okay. 

[00:49:57] Tabitha: She said, you can see him, you know as much as you [00:50:00] can, and he can, you know.

Wow. And I was like, okay. And I thought I'd been to therapy once before. I sort of thought he was going to, you know, talk to me about my mommy issues or my daddy issues, or he didn't wanna talk about any of that. 

[00:50:13] Zoe: Yeah. 

[00:50:14] Tabitha: You know, he wanted to like, I don't know, he dug into like me, started peeling back. 

[00:50:20] Zoe: Mm-hmm.

[00:50:20] Tabitha: I don't know. He started helping me get in touch with me. 

[00:50:23] Zoe: Yeah. Wow. 

[00:50:23] Tabitha: It was like. Because he told me things like, go to the market after this and walk around. If you smell something it smells good. Buy it and eat it. 

[00:50:32] Heather: Mm. 

[00:50:33] Tabitha: I was like, it was so foreign to me at that point. I was 

[00:50:36] Heather: kind of Teach yourself. 

[00:50:37] Tabitha: Yeah.

[00:50:38] Heather: Little things you 

[00:50:38] Tabitha: liked. I ate what you ate or he ate. I listened to the music he liked. You didn't know 

[00:50:42] Zoe: what you liked. 

[00:50:44] Tabitha: I lost kind of touch with all that. Yeah. So I started that and I picked up like a paint set and painted and you know, was writing. And then he got me talking about this like project that I had on the side, which was, um, working like.[00:51:00] 

Writing my grandmother's life story. Yes. 

[00:51:02] Zoe: Mm-hmm. 

[00:51:03] Tabitha: And I was like, why don't you wanna talk about this? It's like, just a thing. And he goes, no, lean in. Like lean in, lean in. And I'm like, we started talking. It was so like gentle. 

[00:51:15] Zoe: Mm-hmm. And like mm-hmm. 

[00:51:15] Tabitha: You know, and, and I guess he noticed and, and, and allowed me to notice that when I talked about it, it was different than when I talked about getting another job.

[00:51:25] Zoe: Yeah. 

[00:51:25] Tabitha: And you know, were excited this field in capital markets mm-hmm. Making it pushing. Right. It was very, maybe more like tab land. Yeah, 

[00:51:34] Heather: exactly. 

[00:51:34] Tabitha: Like kind of what is what 

[00:51:36] Zoe: you needed. 

[00:51:36] Tabitha: And then I thought about it and I thought about like. I could honestly say in my life, 'cause I took, looked at what, how life had got at that point.

[00:51:45] Zoe: Mm-hmm. 

[00:51:46] Tabitha: And was like, when I do this, I feel good. 

[00:51:49] Zoe: Mm-hmm. 

[00:51:49] Tabitha: When I do this, I don't think about anything else. Like, I don't think about being anywhere else doing anything else. Like I'm very present. It's the only thing I had. And so what does this look like? Well, I do [00:52:00] this for other people, I sit with them.

Yeah. That's kind of nice. What do I call it? So that started life to paper. And then when I left Vancouver. It was like, okay, this is what I'm doing now. And that, you know, we start a business, you're like, oh, what about a website? 

[00:52:17] Heather: Mm-hmm. 

[00:52:17] Tabitha: You know, the life to paper name came about, I wrote pen to paper. Mm-hmm.

And then I wrote Life to Paper. I'm like, okay. And then I looked.com was available. I'm like, cool. Amazing. Yeah. Yeah. And that I found it all very rewarding mm-hmm. To kind of, it was creative. Mm-hmm. And 

[00:52:32] Heather: wow, 

[00:52:33] Tabitha: let's start talking about, let's start learning about it. 'cause like, shit, I really don't have any experience besides what I've been doing with her.

[00:52:39] Heather: Right. 

[00:52:39] Tabitha: So I started like looking up life story writing and finding different YouTube videos and books. And, 

[00:52:46] Heather: and just for the timeline, this, this month that you're with 

[00:52:49] Tabitha: mm-hmm. 

[00:52:50] Heather: Your boyfriend's mom? 

[00:52:52] Tabitha: Yeah. 

[00:52:53] Heather: Yeah. Are you sober this whole time? 

[00:52:54] Tabitha: Yeah. 

[00:52:54] Heather: Okay. 

[00:52:55] Tabitha: Yeah. 

[00:52:55] Zoe: Was that 

[00:52:56] Tabitha: the 

[00:52:56] Zoe: first time that you've been sober, like for that long?

[00:52:59] Tabitha: Um, [00:53:00] you know what, yeah. Might've been because, yeah, it might've been the first. The longest period, because I think before that I had 30 days. Okay. And relapsed on that day. 

[00:53:14] Zoe: Yeah. 

[00:53:15] Tabitha: So with her, I was there over a month. Yeah. So I'm like, yeah. Getting a little bit more time. 

[00:53:19] Zoe: Mm-hmm. 

[00:53:20] Tabitha: And I'm feeling good and I'm also like, yeah, I think, I think, you know, I need to be abstinent.

Mm-hmm. Then that, that was in the fall of 2015. 

[00:53:29] Zoe: Okay. 

[00:53:29] Tabitha: And basically like, you know, the timeline now from the fall of 2015 until January 7th, 2019 mm-hmm. Was just a series of in and outs. Yeah. And, and sometimes it was, you know. In, out quickly back in. 

[00:53:45] Heather: Yeah. 

[00:53:45] Tabitha: And sometimes it was in, out for a while. Mm-hmm. And back in, so, yeah.

[00:53:52] Heather: So when did you, when, when was the last time you drank or used 

[00:53:57] Tabitha: J Uh, it ended the evening of [00:54:00] January 6th. Okay. 2019. 

[00:54:01] Heather: And that was New Year's. 

[00:54:03] Tabitha: The New Year's that ended. Wow. Six, seven days later. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. 

[00:54:07] Heather: Wow. 

[00:54:08] Tabitha: Yeah. 

[00:54:08] Heather: So in that time, are you writing, have you, you started life to paper, you're writing your grandmother's story?

[00:54:16] Tabitha: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I'm getting clients. 

[00:54:17] Heather: You're getting clients, 

[00:54:18] Tabitha: okay. Um, that. Therapist, that magical mentor that led me to life to paper, hires me to write his book. 

[00:54:25] Heather: Oh, cool. 

[00:54:25] Tabitha: He's like, look, 

[00:54:26] Heather: yeah, 

[00:54:27] Tabitha: this is kind of strange because I wanna do this. Yeah. And the man who was going to do this with me passed away. 

[00:54:33] Heather: Mm-hmm.

[00:54:34] Tabitha: And he positioned it as like, he told me all about this man Lee, I'll never forget. And it just sounded like what Lee did was so beautiful and mm-hmm. And like, wow. I, and he said, he said, will you take a piece of his torch and like, carry it? You know? Wow. Continue that. It was like, well, yeah. Like this is beautiful.

And then he said, I don't know what this looks like. We're, we're having, we switch hats a lot because sometimes I'm the uncle and sometimes I'm the therapist. Mm-hmm. And now I'd be the client, 

[00:54:58] Heather: yeah. 

[00:54:59] Tabitha: Can, can we do [00:55:00] this? What does this look like? 

[00:55:01] Heather: Mm-hmm. 

[00:55:01] Tabitha: I was like, I'd like, I'd like to. 

[00:55:03] Zoe: Yeah. 

[00:55:03] Tabitha: Um, so he was my first, referred me to my second, so I started getting busier, but I am, and I'm still meeting with him virtually as a therapist.

Okay. Um, and that's when I decided to take off to Miami. 

[00:55:16] Heather: Mm-hmm. 

[00:55:16] Tabitha: And, you know, this is all, I need some space from this relationship because I do wanna get well, 

[00:55:21] Zoe: yeah. 

[00:55:21] Tabitha: And I have this purpose, I feel mm-hmm. And this business and not sure about him. And it's been six years and like 

[00:55:28] Zoe: Yeah. 

[00:55:28] Tabitha: You know, I just, I need something else somewhere else.

[00:55:31] Zoe: Right. Because boyfriend was still in active addiction. 

[00:55:34] Tabitha: Yeah. Yeah. He is. Like in and out. Yeah. But never really in that time together. Maybe after, 'cause we, we, you know, it was about 10 years since we broke up. 

[00:55:42] Zoe: Yeah. 

Mm-hmm. 

[00:55:43] Tabitha: Uh, almost like, you know, maybe he has, I, maybe he hast, I'm not sure. But 

[00:55:48] Zoe: at 

[00:55:48] Tabitha: that time, been in and he didn't 

[00:55:49] Zoe: need a relationship like that.

You need to focus on your business. 

[00:55:53] Tabitha: I didn't believe like we could get well together. Yeah. And now I kind of you to know that's wanted to. 

[00:55:58] Zoe: Mm-hmm. 

[00:55:58] Tabitha: Like it wasn't the [00:56:00] goal before for me. Yeah. But now it was like, you know, I don't know. We've been doing this dance and I don't think I can do this, this well.

Because now you had. Something of yours, this project of yours that you didn't wanna lose. Yeah. And you had to get sober for it. The, the thing about the business, what it looked like then, when it was just me writing people's life stories, was that I spend a bunch of time with them, very intimate time. We get, I get to know them really well.

I maybe go to their house, maybe we go on a trip and we visit places where things happened. And then they're kind of like, okay, see you when I see you. Mm-hmm. And I, I disappear for a few months to write. Mm-hmm. And maybe I check in with an email here and there. Yeah. But that created the perfect conditions for me to hide.

[00:56:45] Zoe: Right 

[00:56:45] Tabitha: now I'm in a new city in Miami. You know, I've got, you know, some accountability with clients, but for the most part, you know, I've got peer, I don't need to show up. Mm-hmm. And people check in with me every day. 

[00:56:57] Zoe: Yeah. Mm-hmm. 

[00:56:58] Tabitha: I can go, oh, she's [00:57:00] creative, she's writing. Yeah. And that allowed me to have like fall back into, you know, some pretty destructive patterns.

[00:57:08] Zoe: Mm-hmm. 

[00:57:09] Tabitha: So it was like living alone for the first time. Mm-hmm. And I mean, maybe ever. 

[00:57:13] Zoe: Yeah. 

[00:57:13] Tabitha: And also, yeah. So it was tough 

[00:57:16] Heather: Life to paper. Is your focus is in mental health, recovery, wellness kind of coming of age stories. Mm-hmm. 

[00:57:25] Tabitha: Yeah. 

[00:57:26] Heather: At the time when you started it and you're still in and out of sobriety. I, is that what life to Paper was, was 

[00:57:33] Tabitha: it not exactly.

Okay. Mm-hmm. No. They thought that kind of like evolved into that. 

[00:57:39] Heather: Okay. 

[00:57:39] Tabitha: Um, no, it was really, um. You know, I thought I was gonna be working with old people at the end of their life. Yeah. When they're ready to like, put their legacy to paper and their stories to paper. 

[00:57:52] Heather: Mm-hmm. 

[00:57:52] Tabitha: But then it started to kind of change where I started getting younger people.

Mm. And I wanna write this kind of book or that kind of book. And then, um, I [00:58:00] had someone approach me who, um, he, he told me his story and I said, amazing. I wanna write it. He'd, uh, was terminally ill at the time. He had been sexually abused, um, when he was a child. Mm-hmm. By an older child. Mm-hmm. Like a teenager when he was Yeah.

And, and he never told anyone about it. He packed it away. His parents had basically, you know 

[00:58:26] Zoe: Yeah. 

[00:58:27] Tabitha: Said We are packing this away. Yeah. Burning all your photos, moving cities. And, and then he was now, you know, staring, you know, death in the face and was like finally told. His wife for the first time and then decided I should write this and maybe help some people.

And so he told me this, but he hadn't told me he had written it. So then he said, well, I'll send you the manuscript. Wow. I'm like, well, I do this. Yeah. So what do you need me for? Yeah. And he was like, well, I need to get it out. 

[00:58:55] Zoe: Yeah. 

[00:58:55] Tabitha: Into the world. Like it's now just writing on pages. 

[00:58:58] Zoe: Mm-hmm. 

[00:58:58] Tabitha: I was like, oh, I don't do [00:59:00] that.

And he's like, I think you can figure it out. I was like, okay. 

[00:59:03] Heather: Yeah. 

[00:59:03] Tabitha: Um, and he was like a, you know, executive coach in his career, so it was very like, inspiring. Yeah. And like, you got this and we'll do this together and like a partnership. I'm like, okay. It was the same with starting life to paper. I was like, the things that the next steps kind of felt, right?

[00:59:18] Heather: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

[00:59:19] Tabitha: Um, so I did that and then I was like, I guess. I publish now too. Mm-hmm. Cool. So then it was like, okay, I help people write and publish books. 

[00:59:28] Zoe: Mm-hmm. 

[00:59:28] Tabitha: And that was really what it was for the first few years. Yeah. Most people that came through life to paper needed help writing it. 

[00:59:34] Heather: Yeah. 

[00:59:35] Tabitha: Mm-hmm. Um, and then also help getting out into the world.

Mm-hmm. So that helped me figure out, like, I tried everything 

[00:59:42] Zoe: mm-hmm. 

[00:59:42] Tabitha: Around that writing and publishing and marketing, and then started to kind of hone in on like what things I wanted to do specifically and what things I ought to be doing. Yeah. And then I would say I started, you know, it was just an evolution.

I, [01:00:00] I found, you know, we started publishing fiction and poetry and other genres, but like the ones that I felt like I did them the most, the. I did my best, my best work were like, not the stories that fell under those categories. Yeah. Of like naturally recovery. 

[01:00:17] Zoe: Yeah, yeah, for sure. 

[01:00:17] Tabitha: And mental health addiction, trauma abuse, like, I wanted bring the tough stuff.

[01:00:23] Zoe: Mm-hmm. 

[01:00:23] Tabitha: Those tough stories. Like the forefront, the ones that like, you know, someone called it Fringe recently. He's like, yeah, you do the fringe stuff. 

[01:00:32] Zoe: Interesting. 

[01:00:32] Tabitha: Because we were talking about though, one of the, one of our, one of our more recent publications about the founder of, uh, CEO of Sleep Country who fell into crack addiction when he was building sleep country.

Right. And he is like, yeah, like hearing a lot about the story. Like you do the, like, the fringe stuff. I'm like, I don't wanna call it fringe. 

[01:00:50] Zoe: Yeah. 

[01:00:51] Tabitha: But like, 

[01:00:52] Zoe: were you always like a writer reader, like growing up, like, did you like that growing up or is this writing? Writing, [01:01:00] yeah. 

[01:01:00] Tabitha: Yeah. But I, I was like, that was my zone, like writing, creating, if I got a book report, I'd like.

You know, most people would hand in like stapled pages. Yeah. I'd hand in a book Oh, wow. For my book report and make it into a book. 

[01:01:13] Zoe: A book for a 

[01:01:14] Tabitha: book. Oh God. Like a design their cover. Never, 

[01:01:16] Heather: I was just gonna say, I wouldn't have handed in at all. Those are not my options. 

[01:01:21] Tabitha: But I like, I, there's a a definite point where I like started to, to just like, okay, like I knew myself.

I was very connected with myself, and then I started to like, I think I've, the message was like, being me isn't Okay. 

[01:01:36] Heather: Yeah. 

[01:01:37] Tabitha: I've gotta create another version of me the world people like better. Yeah. Because I don't think people like this. 

[01:01:42] Zoe: Yeah. 

[01:01:42] Heather: Okay. I'm wondering, through all of this, what I'm seeing is like, you have a confidence in yourself or a trust for yourself or the universe.

You're down bad, you're in and out of sobriety, but you, you lose your job and someone says you should [01:02:00] do this. And you're like, well. Maybe I can do this. And you go with it. 

[01:02:03] Zoe: Yeah. 

[01:02:03] Heather: And then it's, I don't, I don't publish, I just help people write. No, you could do it. Mm-hmm. Okay. I guess I can, what is that? Are you, do you ha, have you always had like a, like a, a sense of self-worth, self-trust?

Because this is, like you, you've said you didn't have a background in this. Mm-hmm. You were capital markets. You're, you didn't go to school for journalism or writing. No. So what is that, that's allowing you to trust yourself? 

[01:02:32] Tabitha: It's interesting 'cause like I encounter this with authors sometimes. Like first time authors is one I'm working with right now.

And I just keep te like, she has these instincts that I'm finding like, she doesn't trust. I mean, you read her story, she's survived a cult. It's a 

[01:02:48] Zoe: wild story. 

[01:02:49] Tabitha: It's so good. I love her so much. 

[01:02:51] Zoe: Mm-hmm. 

[01:02:52] Tabitha: Um, but it's like. I'm there now as her publisher and supporting her. She's [01:03:00] developing the book to like validate her instincts because they're just like, right.

And I needed that too. I feel like I had these instincts, but I didn't know, and I doubted myself constantly. And especially not having a background, you're like, I know nothing. I knew nothing. 

[01:03:15] Zoe: Yeah. 

[01:03:15] Tabitha: And then I'm having these kind of mentors and people come my life and say like, yeah, that's right. 

[01:03:20] Zoe: Yeah, 

[01:03:20] Tabitha: yeah.

You're right about this. You're on the right track. Like these little shoulder taps, like, yep, keep going. That's the way. 

[01:03:26] Heather: Something about that in sobriety, we talk about this all the time, there's, if you just, you follow good intentions and you just go with the universe. It's like just if it's scary, just do it.

[01:03:38] Zoe: Yeah. 

[01:03:38] Heather: You know, 

[01:03:38] Zoe: trust it. 

[01:03:39] Heather: Sobriety gives you a lot of. Weird signs from the universe. I think that you said this last week that we're like able to see now. Mm-hmm. Because we're sober. 

[01:03:47] Zoe: Mm-hmm. 

[01:03:47] Heather: I wanna know a little bit about your grandmother. 'cause this is the first, this is first the first book that you helped write.

[01:03:54] Tabitha: Yeah. Was this 

[01:03:55] Zoe: your dad's mom? 

[01:03:56] Tabitha: This is my, I should be clear about the dad thing of a [01:04:00] father, biological father. Yeah. 

[01:04:01] Heather: Mm-hmm. 

[01:04:01] Tabitha: And yes, it's his mom. Okay. But I have a, uh, another dad is a stepfather. He's a father that I call dad. Yeah. Yeah. And he's been in my life since I was five. Yeah. 

[01:04:11] Heather: Okay. 

[01:04:12] Tabitha: So yeah, my biological father is, you know, the one who struggled as well, and it was his mother.

[01:04:18] Zoe: Okay. Okay. 

[01:04:18] Tabitha: Yeah. 

[01:04:18] Zoe: Cool. 

[01:04:19] Tabitha: And I was separated from, you know, both of them in that family from age five to 14. 

[01:04:23] Zoe: Mm-hmm. 

[01:04:24] Tabitha: There's a big absence. 

Okay. 

[01:04:26] Zoe: Okay. 

[01:04:26] Tabitha: Um, and so, yeah. You know, 14, she's back in my life and she's two. She becomes a really big part of my life. Well, she seems 

[01:04:35] Zoe: incredible. 

[01:04:35] Tabitha: She's so cool. Yeah. Yeah.

She's a little feisty thing. She's like under five feet and like. Man. Yeah, she's, she's a tough little lady. 

[01:04:44] Heather: Yeah. And did she come to you or did you come to her with an idea of a book or what was the 

[01:04:49] Tabitha: reason she started like talking about like, I guess I was the first, I'm her only granddaughter. 

[01:04:55] Heather: Mm-hmm. 

[01:04:55] Tabitha: Um, and yeah, so my sister is my half sister and I have a [01:05:00] brother's, a half brother as well.

But we never, we only say that to like clarify, show other people. Um, but so, you know, I'm the first like. Granddaughter in her life and she doesn't have daughter. Mm-hmm. So she opens up to me a little bit more. She tells me a bit more of her story. I mean, they know she's a Hungarian refugee. Okay. And they know that what was going on at the time, they know the historical account, but they don't know like the personal account.

'cause they're, 

[01:05:26] Heather: yeah, 

[01:05:26] Tabitha: they're, I don't know. They're not the type to, I do a lot of kids. Yeah. 

[01:05:30] Heather: I've never understood that. It's like I ask my mom things sometimes. I'm like, oh, well why didn't your aunt get married? Was she gay? Was she, what was it? Yeah. And she's like, I don't know. I'm like, ask. 

[01:05:42] Tabitha: Yeah. 

[01:05:42] Heather: I was not everyone what was going on?

You know, we walk into a room and we're like, what's your drama? What happened? How's your dad? How much money does he make? It's just like how the, like not asking, having someone in your family, it's like, thank God you were there to pull it out. You know? 

[01:05:56] Tabitha: I think she felt safe to share. Mm-hmm. And um, so [01:06:00] she started sharing and then she mentioned she's, she just mentioned like, I'm gonna, one day I'm gonna hire a ghost writer to write my, and she mentioned it a couple times and one time I think we were in the car and she said that, and I, I don't know why I said, I'll do it.

Don't hire someone. How old were you? I don't know why you, um, I was probably about 24, 25, around that time. I think maybe 26. 

[01:06:26] Zoe: Mm-hmm. 

[01:06:26] Tabitha: It was sort of, it's kind of blurry. It was like, you know, my sort of investor relations on my way, capital markets career was just starting. I had this job. 

[01:06:35] Zoe: Yeah. 

[01:06:35] Tabitha: And then, you know, when she said that part of me was like, I don't know why I said I'll do it.

Yeah. I mean, that's 

[01:06:42] Zoe: interesting. 

[01:06:43] Tabitha: One of my, I don't wanna call it a regret 'cause I think it's happening in the time, but I haven't published that book. 

[01:06:48] Zoe: Okay. 

[01:06:49] Tabitha: Um, one of the reasons is, you know. It did change shape, let's say, like it was, uh, it started out as it was, you know, like I write for other [01:07:00] people, or I started writing for other people, it was their voice, their story, their voice completely.

I'm the ghost, I'm the method writer. Yeah. 

[01:07:07] Zoe: Mm-hmm. Being 

[01:07:08] Tabitha: that putting, you know, you know, bringing them onto the page and their voice onto the page with her. That's how we started doing it. But then, I mean, life happens and I'm telling the story like I'm to you two. Yeah. And people are like, I wanna hear more of that story.

Yeah. Of you and her. Mm-hmm. So then I, I present to her, you know. What if the book is more so about the journey Yeah. Of me coming to write it and with you. And that's how we pull your voice into it because you're, you know, we're the main characters. Yeah. Yeah. And she's like, yeah, I like that. Because the other thing about, and I noticed that some people you can't, you, there's some people that are like open books and you start talking to them and they just pour everything out.

[01:07:50] Heather: Yeah. 

[01:07:51] Tabitha: And there are others that they're just like, she has a tough time sharing the emotional side of it. She does lean more [01:08:00] into the facts. 

[01:08:01] Zoe: Yeah. Okay. 

[01:08:01] Tabitha: Um, she shared very little of like how I felt. Mm-hmm. You know, when this happened I was, 

[01:08:08] Zoe: you 

[01:08:08] Tabitha: know, it's just, 

[01:08:08] Zoe: yeah. 

[01:08:09] Tabitha: And I can't push her. Yeah. You know, I tried and I found myself like, and I don't like to do this, like fictionalizing a little too much.

Yeah. I'm like, this is an honest 

[01:08:18] Heather: Yeah. 

[01:08:19] Tabitha: But I think. Yeah. So I guess I done a little beta testing in terms of what, you know 

[01:08:25] Heather: Yeah. 

[01:08:25] Tabitha: People are like, yeah, that's the one. So, 

[01:08:26] Heather: mm-hmm. 

[01:08:27] Tabitha: I also got busy. 

[01:08:29] Heather: Mm-hmm. 

[01:08:29] Tabitha: Um, but it's important to me and the way the flow is of things now, I'm, you know, getting to a period of where I have more time for my own projects.

[01:08:39] Heather: Yeah. 

[01:08:39] Tabitha: Um, thankfully. So that one's on the like, agenda as a priority too. 

[01:08:44] Heather: Amazing. Is your grandmother still around? 

[01:08:46] Tabitha: Yeah. 

[01:08:46] Heather: Okay. 

[01:08:47] Tabitha: She's 83. 

[01:08:48] Heather: Oh 

[01:08:48] Tabitha: wow. Love it. 

[01:08:49] Heather: She's, 

[01:08:50] Tabitha: she's great. Yeah. 

[01:08:51] Heather: Okay. 

[01:08:51] Tabitha: We talk a lot. We see each other a lot. Mm-hmm. She's, um, yeah. Like an anchor. 

[01:08:57] Heather: Mm-hmm. That's amazing. 

[01:08:58] Tabitha: Yeah. 

[01:08:58] Heather: Wow. 

[01:08:59] Tabitha: But I gotta get this [01:09:00] done for her.

[01:09:00] Heather: Yeah. 

[01:09:00] Tabitha: You know, this is, and part of it is also the, like, well, it's her and it has to be perfect. 

[01:09:06] Heather: Mm-hmm. 

[01:09:07] Tabitha: It has to be. 

[01:09:08] Heather: Mm-hmm. 

[01:09:09] Tabitha: Now I have this, like, you know, yeah. Put other books out. Mm-hmm. It's gotta be the best one, right? 

[01:09:14] Zoe: Mm-hmm. 

[01:09:14] Tabitha: No control over that, though. There's no crystal ball. 

[01:09:17] Zoe: No. Nothing's gonna be perfect.

[01:09:19] Tabitha: You put a book into the world and you could do all the things and like, you don't know how the market's going to react, or like, it's, it's gonna, you can, you can, you can do your best. Take the right action. Exactly. 

[01:09:30] Zoe: But 

[01:09:30] Tabitha: there's no, you know, magic formula or anything. 

[01:09:34] Heather: It's always interesting to me when, like, you, you're, you know, you're doing all this work and it's like there is something that's taking longer.

Mm-hmm. And 

[01:09:41] Zoe: it's like there's a. 

[01:09:43] Heather: You know, there's a reason that it's taking longer and it's, you know, you wanna do this for her and that'll maybe that'll shift or like you'll, but first of all, I'm so excited to read it when it does come out. Yeah, same. Thank 

[01:09:54] Tabitha: you. 

[01:09:55] Heather: Um, 

[01:09:55] Tabitha: I love you guys are, I mean, readers, right?

[01:09:59] Heather: To try to [01:10:00] be I always making coffee now. I'm 

[01:10:02] Zoe: trying to read a book. Yeah. I read a lot in rehab and I read a lot when I was like trying to get sober, like before going to rehab, like. Probably a couple years before I actually went to rehab, I was like trying to like control my alcohol, you know? 

[01:10:17] Tabitha: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[01:10:17] Zoe: And I was like reading like self-help books or like, this will do it a lot of books about like depression. 'cause I thought I was just depressed. Mm-hmm. And that's why I need alcohol and 

[01:10:28] Tabitha: maybe both. 

[01:10:28] Zoe: Yeah. And 

[01:10:30] Heather: gotta be some sort of reason that, you 

[01:10:32] Zoe: know, I could keep an alcoholic. I just need this for my depression.

But, and then I read a lot in rehab, but now I haven't read it a little bit to be honest. Mm-hmm. So I do need to bring that back because it is interesting how like I leaned on it to get sober and now I haven't leaned on it as much. Um, yeah. 

[01:10:52] Heather: But give yourself time. I mean, I'm sure you know this and I'm sure you're able to say this to the authors you work with, but it's like that's the.[01:11:00] 

That's the book you started with. Mm-hmm. And like, that's the one that's, they're also precious, but this is like precious. Mm-hmm. In a different way. And so it needs time. Like you needed time to get sober, you needed time, you know? Mm-hmm. She needed time to be able to come back into your life to be able to do this.

It's like, 

[01:11:16] Tabitha: yeah. 

[01:11:16] Heather: The time is clearly quite necessary for this, 

[01:11:19] Tabitha: right? 

[01:11:20] Heather: Yeah. 

[01:11:20] Tabitha: And I have to trust that like, you know, the company continues to evolve. Mm-hmm. Like I do too. Mm-hmm. And like, I grow and I learn more, and I think it'll hap, it'll happen I hope at a point where like, you know, I've learned all what I need to learn for this one.

Mm-hmm. 

[01:11:35] Heather: You know? Yeah, yeah, 

[01:11:37] Tabitha: yeah. 

[01:11:37] Heather: Sometimes that just takes more time. There's more to learn. Yeah. It's a big one. 

[01:11:40] Tabitha: Yeah. 

[01:11:41] Heather: Let's talk about the method. You call it method. Ghost writing. Method writing. 

[01:11:45] Tabitha: Oh, method writing. 

[01:11:46] Zoe: Mm. 

[01:11:46] Heather: So. Vicarious trauma is where I'm going with this. Mm-hmm. And we've talked about this, how we were just, we were chatting about you before you arrived, that some of what you talk about, [01:12:00] we kinda liken to, or Zoe likened to, um, a sponsor 

[01:12:03] Zoe: in aa.

Like you were saying, how your relationships with the people you write for. Mm-hmm. Like it's a sacred relationship. Yeah. And when I heard you say that, I was like, oh, that's like how sponsorship is, you know? Yeah. Like, no one will ever have that relationship except for the sponsee sponsor. 

[01:12:22] Tabitha: Mm-hmm. 

[01:12:23] Zoe: And I feel like that's very similar to your approach on writing.

[01:12:26] Tabitha: It is. Yeah. Yeah. 

[01:12:27] Zoe: Is that because of the program, you think? Or, 

[01:12:30] Tabitha: uh, 

[01:12:31] Zoe: I think it just happens that way. 

[01:12:32] Tabitha: It just kind of happened and then I started noticing like the common ground between, you know, the tool, like the steps and the 

[01:12:40] Zoe: Yeah. 

[01:12:40] Tabitha: You know what I do. 

[01:12:42] Zoe: Mm-hmm. 

[01:12:42] Tabitha: And, um. I guess my goal was like always to get people to this like right sized account.

[01:12:49] Zoe: Mm. 

[01:12:50] Tabitha: And like create a safe space where, you know, they were, they, they could see things like from all 

[01:12:56] Zoe: Mm. Yeah. 

[01:12:57] Tabitha: And sometimes you get like, and I still [01:13:00] get people that approach me and I, it's tough 'cause I can't, my process can bring, I think, bring them to that. 

[01:13:08] Zoe: Yeah. 

[01:13:08] Tabitha: To a certain extent. Sometimes just they need, need more 

[01:13:12] Zoe: For sure.

[01:13:12] Tabitha: To get to the point where like, I think the rightsized to count is like the. Ah. You know, they also see their part in things. Yeah. And it's tough when it's tough stuff and you have people coming to you and they're just like, they did this and they did this, and they did this, and everyone has to know. And I'm like, 

[01:13:29] Zoe: yeah, but that's not 

[01:13:29] Tabitha: how 

a 

[01:13:30] Zoe: book can be.

You know? 

[01:13:31] Tabitha: Yeah. 

[01:13:32] Zoe: Your reader be a full circle, 

[01:13:34] Tabitha: you know? And your reader will get so frustrated with you too. Yeah. Right. So getting them to understand that and start to kind of see it from the reader perspective. But you can't, you can't force anyone's healing. Yeah. That's where I find my work. Interesting that because sometimes interesting, sometimes I hit a wall where I'm not a therapist or a counselor and I realize, I don't know, have the tools to get them, but I want to.

[01:13:55] Zoe: Yeah. 

[01:13:55] Tabitha: And if they could, then this book would be so much 

[01:13:57] Heather: better. 

[01:13:58] Zoe: Right. It's interesting with like, [01:14:00] that's the same as like when you want someone to get sober. Mm-hmm. Like you're trying everything and you can Yeah. And then at the end of the day, they're not gonna do it unless they do the work. 

[01:14:09] Heather: Yeah. 

[01:14:09] Zoe: And you're not gonna get a book done unless they do the work too.

[01:14:12] Heather: Yeah. And I guess you can give little, like, and I don't have a sponsor, but I guess you can give little, um, encouragement or 

[01:14:19] Zoe: Yeah. 

[01:14:19] Heather: Mm-hmm. Advice but not, not telling someone what to do. 

[01:14:22] Tabitha: Mm-hmm. 

[01:14:23] Heather: But yeah. It must be so interesting 'cause we do this in sobriety where it's like, I see what's wrong with you.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Like you just said, I see it. Change that. Yeah. And then just do that. Yeah. Or even not sobriety. It could be like, one of our friends has a boyfriend and that boyfriend sucks. Yeah. And it's like. Girl, like, just bitch. If we can see it, everyone around you can see it. I mean, I've been, I've been that girl too, you know, and it's, but it is interesting and you're trying to write the book and it's like, I just want you to like, I want to write it this way.

Get there, get there. Yeah. It's like the point of the book is, is beyond you. Mm-hmm. And it's, but also it's your book so it's [01:15:00] so personal. Yeah. Are you able to leave it, leave it, leave your work at work? Or do you find, you take in people's. 

[01:15:11] Tabitha: So I should say that, um, my ghost writing, like method writing, I don't do as much of anymore.

[01:15:18] Heather: Okay. Okay. 

[01:15:18] Tabitha: I think we were talking about this at coffee. Mm-hmm. I think I admitted to you for the first time. Mm-hmm. I don't feel like I'm as good at it as I used to, but that could be completely wrong as well, because I did not like myself. Mm-hmm. So get me out of me in any way I can escape. 

[01:15:36] Heather: Right. 

[01:15:37] Tabitha: Drugs, alcohol, being inside your mind.

Yeah. 

[01:15:40] Heather: Yeah. 

[01:15:41] Tabitha: Immersed inside your thoughts and minds and mind and feelings. Right. 

[01:15:44] Heather: Distract from me. Yeah. 

[01:15:45] Tabitha: Yeah. And then I get sober and like a first second do it and then I start to feel like, huh. And I start to feel a bit more sensitive to like, 

[01:15:52] Heather: yeah. 

[01:15:53] Tabitha: The, it can be heavy to take on. Yeah. 

[01:15:56] Zoe: For sure. 

[01:15:56] Tabitha: And when people are sharing, and I'm like, oh gosh, I used to [01:16:00] pack my day with like three of these sessions.

Mm-hmm. And now I can only do one and then I need a rest. Yeah, 

[01:16:04] Zoe: yeah. Because you're finally putting yourself first. Right. Put your less, I'm like, I'm bad at this now. 

[01:16:09] Tabitha: I'm not bad. I just like can't do it the way I used to. Yeah. 

[01:16:12] Zoe: Which is so fair because 

[01:16:13] Tabitha: you, yeah. I can do yourself first one at a time. I used to because that was the business, like 

[01:16:18] Heather: mm-hmm.

[01:16:19] Tabitha: Three at a time, four at a time. 

[01:16:21] Heather: But you were drinking during that, right? Yeah. 

[01:16:23] Tabitha: Yeah. 

[01:16:23] Heather: So there's a, I'd imagine there's like a, a numbing that comes with 

[01:16:27] Tabitha: mm-hmm. 

[01:16:28] Heather: Using, 

[01:16:29] Tabitha: yeah. 

[01:16:29] Heather: And you're sometimes you're really able to hyperfocus when you're using and it's, 

[01:16:34] Tabitha: mm-hmm. 

[01:16:34] Heather: It is, like you're saying it's a distraction from yourself.

[01:16:37] Tabitha: Yeah. 

[01:16:38] Heather: And now there isn't that numbing. 

[01:16:40] Tabitha: Mm-hmm. 

[01:16:40] Heather: And that's a scary place to be because you're like. When I get sober, everything is supposed to get easier. I'm supposed to be better at everything I do. And you're feeling this like, I'm not there, 

[01:16:51] Tabitha: I'm a fraud. 

[01:16:52] Heather: Right. 

[01:16:53] Tabitha: I can't do this. And I'm telling people I can and what happens when 

[01:16:57] Heather: mm-hmm.

[01:16:57] Tabitha: I just had to learn to do it a different way. 

[01:16:59] Heather: Yeah. 

[01:16:59] Tabitha: And then [01:17:00] the publishing side, you know, 'cause started taking off. So then, and it is great. I'm attracting, you know, as much as I love the sitting with someone taking in their story and writing it or 

[01:17:12] Heather: mm-hmm. 

[01:17:12] Tabitha: I'm attracting actually really good writers. Yeah.

[01:17:15] Heather: Right. 

[01:17:15] Tabitha: So that becomes like our publishing program. Yeah. And then, and then it becomes for those who, you know, have taken it as far as they can or like just don't feel they can, for various reasons, put it to paper. 

[01:17:30] Heather: Mm-hmm. 

[01:17:30] Tabitha: Then we can step in and help. But that's not most of what we do. That's like there if you need it.

[01:17:35] Heather: Yeah. 

[01:17:36] Tabitha: Um, but I think it has to be the, the conditions have to be like, you know, we believe in the. The potential of the story. Mm-hmm. There's a book plan around it. You know, it just needs, and like other publishing houses have ghost writers too, or hire ghost writers all the time. 

[01:17:52] Heather: Well, you've also grown so much since you started with your grandmother, so Oh yeah, that's 

[01:17:57] Zoe: what I was thinking too.

[01:17:57] Heather: Like of 

[01:17:58] Zoe: course it's gonna evolve and [01:18:00] change. 

[01:18:00] Heather: Yeah. And your role in the whole thing changes. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And it's, yeah, it's probably like I'm sitting here being like, there's no way that you get sober and then you're worse at something. It's just the way your brain is working or your brain is now allowing you to feel more or see more.

[01:18:16] Tabitha: Yeah. Yeah. 

[01:18:16] Heather: And so it's, it's not as easy to just turn it off Yeah. And take on someone's story 

[01:18:21] Tabitha: for sure. 

[01:18:21] Heather: It's a lot. 

[01:18:21] Tabitha: It's, yeah, it started to become tough. I started to struggle 'cause I, I was trying to balance, trying to do everything my first, like end of my first year, second year, third year. Mm-hmm. You know, Tabitha is looking to fill, I still have got this void.

[01:18:35] Zoe: Yep. 

[01:18:35] Tabitha: I haven't filled it with like. You know what the program's telling me to fill it with, which is God. 

[01:18:40] Zoe: Mm-hmm. Hmm. 

[01:18:41] Tabitha: Don't really know how to do that. Mm-hmm. Sounds great. You guys seem to get it, but I don't know. 

[01:18:45] Heather: Yeah. 

[01:18:46] Tabitha: But I start to fill it with like, uh, achievements. Mm-hmm. And being busy with work and more and more and more.

So in 2021 it's like, not, not to mention like the publishing business [01:19:00] kind of changes and I get really busy with that. Then I add a book, a foundation, a bookshop and a book festival in the same year. 

[01:19:06] Heather: Yeah. Wow. 

[01:19:07] Tabitha: Because it's not enough and I'm just trying to throw things at this like more and more, more.

[01:19:12] Zoe: Wow. 

[01:19:12] Tabitha: And the overwhelm starts and like the, um, some of the old behaviors come back, which are things that important too. Started to, I my life got unmanageable in sobriety. 

[01:19:23] Zoe: Yeah. 

[01:19:23] Tabitha: At many points. '

[01:19:24] Zoe: cause you took on too much. 

[01:19:26] Tabitha: Yeah. 

[01:19:26] Zoe: Yeah. 

[01:19:26] Tabitha: And the, and then, you know, I used to lie, cheat, and steal. Mm-hmm. I'm lying, cheating, and stealing.

But it looks different. 

[01:19:32] Zoe: Yeah. 

[01:19:32] Tabitha: So I'm not even aware. That it's, I'm doing it because it doesn't look like, you know? Yeah. I sneaky, I used toy cheat on boyfriends and steal money. Yeah. And now it's like I'm doing those things, but they look different. Yeah. Damn. That's the same behavior. Yeah. And the same route.

[01:19:49] Zoe: Yeah. 

[01:19:49] Tabitha: And it kind of happened, and then I, I had this like, oh my God, oh my God. Like, and I'm not drinking. You're using, 

[01:19:57] Zoe: it's, did you feel like you were going to, and was that the [01:20:00] thing That's scary. 

[01:20:00] Tabitha: No, that's what's 

[01:20:01] Zoe: crazy. 

[01:20:01] Tabitha: Yeah. 

[01:20:02] Heather: Yeah. 

[01:20:02] Zoe: But 

[01:20:02] Tabitha: it was, 

[01:20:03] Heather: it was like, 

[01:20:04] Tabitha: I'm like, with this. Yeah. And I can't, it's with me.

Yeah. And I, 

[01:20:07] Heather: yeah. It's like addict behavior's, like, we call it like draw drunks or like relapse behavior where you're Yeah. Like, ev you're sober. So I'm, I'm not, like, those aren't my behaviors anymore. 

[01:20:18] Tabitha: Mm-hmm. But they are. 

[01:20:19] Heather: Yeah. And addiction's so sneaky. Yeah. It's like trying to find another way to get in.

And when you start to burn out or get stressed, it's like. Gotcha, bitch. 

[01:20:26] Tabitha: Yeah. And the thing is, if you looked, most people would be like, well, that's like Miss aa. She goes to a meeting or two every day. Mm-hmm. And she hosts all these people in the program for dinner every Sunday night. Mm-hmm. Like she's thriving.

Mm-hmm. But no. 

[01:20:39] Heather: Mm-hmm. 

[01:20:40] Tabitha: Um, 

[01:20:41] Heather: looking the part, not doing the 

[01:20:42] Tabitha: work. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you can like fully be showing up to meetings, but you know. The shit in my life. I dunno how else to say it. The shit in my life that I brought into the program, I like told on myself, um, I asked for help. Mm-hmm. You know, this situation, [01:21:00] what do I do?

I found, I got the guide, everything worked itself out. Mm-hmm. But I left a lot outside 'cause I started feeling shame around things. So I'm like, uh, no. 'cause people think this way of me and if I tell them I've been doing this, they're gonna 

[01:21:15] Zoe: be like, 

[01:21:15] Tabitha: oh, but I thought you were such a nice girl. 

[01:21:18] Zoe: Yeah. 

[01:21:19] Tabitha: And so the stuff I left outside.

Remained a shit show. 

[01:21:22] Zoe: Mm-hmm. 

[01:21:23] Tabitha: Like didn't really work itself out in a peaceful way and create a lot of chaos. 

[01:21:27] Zoe: Were you telling anyone that stuff? Like your sponsor or anyone? 

[01:21:30] Tabitha: No, there was just stuff that I left. Yeah. I'm like, I'll, I'll deal with this, I'll deal with this. Okay. And then there were other stuff that I'm like, felt okay to share about, yeah.

Show and that worked itself out and the other stuff didn't and, but I was able to see that. I'm like, damn. 

[01:21:42] Zoe: Mm-hmm. 

[01:21:43] Tabitha: Okay. So I gotta get honest with somebody. Yeah. Like I did when I got sober. 

[01:21:48] Zoe: Mm-hmm. 

[01:21:48] Tabitha: You know, a few years ago. So it was like, I gotta go through the steps again. 

[01:21:52] Zoe: Mm-hmm. 

[01:21:53] Tabitha: The 12 steps. Right. Okay.

Okay. Because I, I think I You 

[01:21:56] Zoe: didn't carry everything in 

[01:21:57] Tabitha: Yeah. The first 

[01:21:58] Zoe: time. 

[01:21:58] Tabitha: Yeah. And new stuff came up. Yeah, for [01:22:00] sure. That I felt I had to like, lay it all out with somebody. It's like, they say clean house, trust god. Mm-hmm. I needed to do some house cleaning again. 

[01:22:07] Zoe: Yeah. 

[01:22:08] Tabitha: Some scrubbing. 

[01:22:08] Heather: That's, that's a really good point actually, because I, there are things in my first year of sobriety and I was a very delicate little person.

My first year of sobriety, I didn't do anything. Like I met Zoe and then we started going outside. I brought her outside. She me outside. 

[01:22:22] Zoe: Yeah. She just stayed in this house for a year. 

[01:22:24] Heather: I did. I pretty much did. I was terrified. I'd go get my skin done and then I'd come home. But like, I, I, moving into this life where, like, now I go to dinner, now I go out and I have friends started a podcast.

It's like, there are things I know. From rehab that I was implementing year one. 

[01:22:44] Zoe: Mm-hmm. 

[01:22:44] Heather: But I wasn't doing anything. 

[01:22:45] Zoe: Yeah. 

[01:22:46] Heather: And so now I, I do. And I, I've been feeling this recently, like, I have to go through my binder because you said something before that really got me where you were, I think it was maybe the antidepressants where you were like living kind of above [01:23:00] things.

[01:23:00] Tabitha: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

[01:23:01] Heather: I'm doing that and I'm mad at people like yesterday. 

[01:23:04] Tabitha: Yeah. 

[01:23:04] Heather: Like we're talking about, did you watch heated rivalry? 

[01:23:07] Tabitha: No. 

[01:23:08] Heather: Okay. Dude, you have to watch 

[01:23:09] Tabitha: hearing a 

lot 

[01:23:10] Heather: about that. Very sexy. But we were talking about it and I was getting so mad about hockey. Yeah. Like, just about the industry, all that.

And I'm, yeah. Like, okay. And then I texted Zoe later being like, I saw something on the news recently with ice. That's just, I'm getting really fucked up in my brain. Yeah. And I'm angry at men and so I don't give a shit about their love stories, but I'm like, okay, what am I mad at? Where like, I'm outside my window of tolerance for no reason.

[01:23:38] Zoe: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

[01:23:38] Heather: And so I'm like, I need to, same with what you just said. It's like Yeah. Redoing the steps. 

[01:23:42] Zoe: Mm-hmm. 

[01:23:42] Heather: Because your life looks so different now, right? Yeah. Like true. Yeah. There's no. That's that person first year of sobriety for me is not the same. No. So I'm like, I do have to, you know, you move on, you grow, you move forward.

But you have to remember those things. Yeah. Or you'll leave them and then [01:24:00] relapse behavior and you go crazy. 

Yeah. 

[01:24:01] Tabitha: It was, it was the same way. It like, similar to when I was using where, you know, I tried very hard to maintain this, like, look, you know, from the outside of like this life that was growing and getting better.

[01:24:14] Zoe: Mm-hmm. 

[01:24:15] Tabitha: But this side of my, the secret part of my life, you know, was like a shit show. 

[01:24:19] Zoe: Yeah. 

[01:24:19] Tabitha: Mm-hmm. So now I'm like, whoa, that's kind of happening again. 'cause people, you first meet me, oh my God, look what you're doing and you started this and amazing blah, blah, blah. But then there's this like messy stuff.

[01:24:30] Zoe: Mm-hmm. 

[01:24:30] Tabitha: And the, you know, the dishonesty and it looked like I took on my sponsor, helped me see and write out, and list out and start to see that I took on an overcommitted beyond. Yeah. Like I'd, I'd be telling someone in a meeting in a Zoom call. Oh. Instead of saying, you know, you should do this and here's some guidance, you should do this.

I'll do it for you. I'll get it back to you in Right. An hour. Well, it the next, that's not 

[01:24:56] Zoe: your responsibility. 

[01:24:57] Tabitha: I have a meeting after this. Yeah. So, unless I'm doing this for [01:25:00] you. And then I wouldn't, I just kind of like, oh, I can't get this done. I'm overwhelmed. I'm overwhelmed. And they're sitting there being like, where's this thing you told me?

[01:25:06] Zoe: Mm-hmm. 

[01:25:06] Tabitha: And then they're mad and I'm mad 'cause they're mad. 

[01:25:09] Zoe: Yeah. 

[01:25:09] Tabitha: Why are you expecting this of me? 

[01:25:10] Zoe: Yeah. 

[01:25:11] Tabitha: I'm more, this isn't even in our contract. 

[01:25:13] Zoe: Yeah, yeah. 

[01:25:14] Tabitha: Or like, you know, working on something and like, I need more time. And they're like, uh, I wanted it. And I'm like, you know, I need more time. 

[01:25:21] Zoe: Yeah. Yeah.

[01:25:22] Tabitha: You know, I've taken on too much. I, I can't be honest about it, but what I inside 

[01:25:27] Zoe: Yeah. 

[01:25:27] Tabitha: You know? Yeah. I've taken on too much. I can't get this in the time that I told you I would. So she helped me like on paper and see that and be like, I'm not being honest. Mm-hmm. You know, every time I commit to something that every time I don't take the time to think.

Through carefully. 

[01:25:43] Zoe: Mm-hmm. 

[01:25:43] Tabitha: How long this is gonna take. And so she gave me the tools 'cause I didn't have them. It was like, you pause and you tell them you'll get back to them on when you can. Yeah. I was like, whoa, 

[01:25:55] Zoe: whoa. 

[01:25:55] Tabitha: So I kind of like, can I write this down? Yeah. And so I started using that. [01:26:00] Um, can you gimme some time and I will get back to you on that.

Yeah. And it started being my new thing instead of I'll do this. 

[01:26:06] Zoe: Yeah. Mm-hmm. 

[01:26:06] Tabitha: And yeah, when did, because I want you to like me and validate me and be like, you're incredible. You are the best. Yeah, for sure. Look how, how best you can do this. Yeah. I got this opportunity to like, uh, work with the Wolf of Wall Street 

[01:26:21] Zoe: Oh 

[01:26:22] Tabitha: damn.

To help him with his. Like book, 

right? 

[01:26:25] Tabitha: It was actually the last book, but this is what happened. So I get this like dream, dream opportunity. No, no. 

[01:26:31] Heather: But they do that in the movie. They all like chant. It's too much. 

[01:26:36] Tabitha: So I'm like, oh. I'm like, this is a dream come true. This is part of my like, my life's like I'm a rock star, you know?

[01:26:41] Heather: Yeah. 

[01:26:42] Tabitha: So go meet him. Of course things happen really fast. Go meet him tomorrow at this place, hotel, whatever. Meet him tells me, runs through da, da, da. What we're gonna do and like probably thinks like. I've given her the scope. 

[01:26:55] Zoe: Mm-hmm. 

[01:26:56] Tabitha: She'll come back to me in two weeks, blah, blah, blah. I pull an [01:27:00] all-nighter.

[01:27:00] Zoe: Oh my goodness. 

[01:27:00] Tabitha: Write the entire book plan. 

[01:27:02] Zoe: Holy 

[01:27:02] Tabitha: shit. Wow. Design, like, this is what your cover could look like. 

[01:27:05] Zoe: Yeah. 

[01:27:06] Tabitha: Beyond. And then I'm like, I, I'm done. Can I come? You know, can we meet? Uh, yeah. I mean, and that, that was what it looked like. Mm-hmm. I'm just like, 'cause I want this guy want 

[01:27:18] Zoe: now you want the validation now 

[01:27:19] Tabitha: to, you don't have the drugs.

Yeah. You're a rock star. And also a little part of my like work hard, play hard. Like, that's what I think I need to do from my old life 

[01:27:29] Zoe: mm-hmm. 

[01:27:29] Tabitha: In sort of finance. 

[01:27:31] Zoe: Mm-hmm. 

[01:27:31] Tabitha: Was like. He's going to accept me and you know, if I am that person Yeah. Instead of who Tabitha was shaping into, you know mm-hmm. Today.

Yeah. And you know, it, I don't know what he must have thought, but like, I helped him, you know, along the way to, toward the, you know, what he needed to submit, I think, to the publisher to get like a book plan solid. And then funny enough, he goes to me, yeah. I don't feel bad saying this because [01:28:00] I've thought about it a while.

I don't hold any resentment. 

[01:28:02] Zoe: Yeah. 

[01:28:02] Tabitha: But this, like, I'm very clear on the way it went. Yeah. It was like a handshake thing. 

[01:28:05] Zoe: Yeah. 

[01:28:06] Tabitha: Like, listen, I'll take care of you. 

[01:28:09] Zoe: Yeah. 

[01:28:09] Tabitha: And like look me in the eye kind of thing. And they do some work and then 

[01:28:12] Zoe: goes, 

[01:28:12] Tabitha: and then 

[01:28:12] Zoe: gone. 

[01:28:13] Tabitha: I was like, damn. 

[01:28:14] Zoe: I mean, I'm sure that happens a lot in the business.

Yeah. Like, is, does that happen a lot? 

[01:28:20] Tabitha: Uh. No, I've been ghosted. The ghost has been ghosted. Yeah. And this is the thing ghost writers talk about this, the, when you the 

[01:28:28] Zoe: ghost, 

[01:28:28] Tabitha: the ghost gets ghosted. 

[01:28:29] Zoe: Yeah. 

[01:28:30] Tabitha: And as a, for a writer, it's like the worst thing. 'cause you're like, oh, you hated it. 

[01:28:34] Zoe: Yeah. '

[01:28:34] Tabitha: cause every time we submit something I'm like, they're gonna hate it.

And I throw up and like I go through all the things. These stage actors do this too. A lot of them like get sick and they go on stage and no matter how many years they do it, it still happens. 

[01:28:46] Zoe: Yeah. Yeah. 

[01:28:47] Tabitha: So it's always a thing when you're submitting something, you're like, Ugh, it's not as bad as it was before, but mm-hmm.

Yeah. Um, yeah, I've been ghosted a lot of the time. I think it has more to do with like family dynamics and a [01:29:00] family kind of, you know, this is going back years, like hires me to do something and then I don't know what goes on between. Yeah. The, the adult siblings and the Yeah. And like, and you know, why am I not hearing back from them and like, whatever, for whatever reason.

But it's definitely happened before. Mm-hmm. Like in the middle, I would say the middle of a project where you're kind of like, oh, well, we're supposed to, you know, you're supposed to gimme feedback and you're supposed to give me, you know, answer this question I had on this part. And whether it's like someone passes it to one person who then I don't wanna do this.

You do it, you do it, you do it. 

[01:29:32] Heather: Yeah. I 

[01:29:32] Tabitha: have to remember, it's not easy for people to like get through a book as well. Yeah. 

[01:29:36] Heather: Right. And I'm assuming, especially for people whose stories are about recovery or about their life, like 

[01:29:42] Tabitha: Yeah. I 

[01:29:42] Heather: mean, his name is Jordan, right? 

[01:29:44] Tabitha: Yeah. 

[01:29:45] Heather: Wolf, wall Street. He's a dick. And like, that's clear.

Yeah. And like he knows that. Yeah. And like he, like he's also an addict and like 

[01:29:52] Tabitha: Yeah. 

[01:29:53] Heather: We talked about that. Pushing. Pushing. Yeah. And so. Yeah. First of all, it's surprising to me that he came to you in the first place. 'cause [01:30:00] I would imagine he would just go to a man. 

[01:30:01] Tabitha: Yeah. Like, well, he was, I was recommended by a friend of his, who's a film director.

Okay. Who I had met. 

[01:30:08] Heather: Yeah. 

[01:30:08] Tabitha: Um, and I guess like, you know, ha you know, he, they had a good relationship and knew he kind of needed some help and was like, oh, I just met this woman at this Shabbas dinner last night. Like, you gotta talk to her. Boom, boom, boom. And I was meeting him and, 

[01:30:21] Heather: well, I imagine too, if we're talking about doing the work on ourselves, it's like he also seems like a person who is like, push, push, push.

Go, go, go. Bigger, better. Always like, what's the next thing? Oh. She's doing this. Mm. Okay. And then we'll go to like, it's just fast and it's not there. There's not a lot of consideration. 

[01:30:40] Tabitha: Yeah. And I think Lynn, now what I value the most is like the people I work with, there's like, it's so collaborative. 

[01:30:46] Heather: Yeah.

[01:30:47] Tabitha: And like I don't feel like I'm an authority. They are. They're the boss or I'm there. Like we're just coming together to create something. Yeah. 

[01:30:54] Heather: Mm-hmm. 

[01:30:54] Tabitha: And looking back, like if I were to. Be introduced to him today, or someone with [01:31:00] similar personality, I'd probably say, I think there's someone better to help you.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I could do that today. 

[01:31:06] Zoe: Yeah. 

Yeah. 

[01:31:06] Tabitha: But then I could not, yeah. No way you, no. 'cause this is gonna be a big gold star on my leg. Yeah. And I get to get to say that I did this, but this guy and people get to be like, whoa. And I can, yeah. 

[01:31:19] Heather: After, after going through the steps, have you seen a change in the way that you conduct your life?

Like after? Yeah. Do you feel calmer? 

[01:31:26] Tabitha: Yeah. And there's something I'm, I'm like, I think I like, I have my, we celebr great medallions as you know. Mm-hmm. You know, like in the program. And my mine is that on Tuesday at Westmoreland. 

[01:31:39] Zoe: Mm. 

[01:31:40] Tabitha: You're both invited. You're so welcome to go. Um, and you know, I thought about like these medallions, 'cause now I've had a few 

[01:31:47] Zoe: mm-hmm.

[01:31:47] Tabitha: Like, yeah. I can show up to my medallion meeting and be ha look happy, joyous, free. Like 

[01:31:54] Zoe: mm-hmm. 

[01:31:54] Tabitha: You know, that's the energy. But that, that's not the gift. Mm-hmm. The gift is like, when there is [01:32:00] conflict in my life. 'cause there is always going to be conflict. 

[01:32:03] Zoe: Mm-hmm. 

[01:32:03] Tabitha: It's how I'm showing up. 

[01:32:05] Zoe: Yeah. 

[01:32:05] Tabitha: Especially in my relationship.

[01:32:07] Zoe: Mm-hmm. 

[01:32:08] Tabitha: Like I'm, it's. Night and day. 

[01:32:10] Zoe: Mm-hmm. 

[01:32:10] Tabitha: Yeah. It's so different. 

[01:32:12] Zoe: When did you meet your partner today? 

[01:32:14] Tabitha: Oh, we have kind of a cool story. 

[01:32:15] Zoe: Okay. 

[01:32:16] Tabitha: We met. Yeah. It must have been like, I was still out. I wasn't sober. Mm-hmm. Like, I didn't have long-term sobriety. 

[01:32:22] Zoe: Yeah. 

[01:32:23] Tabitha: I was living in Miami. I came back here as I always did, back and forth, back and forth.

And, um, I was taking the subway downtown at some, for some reason it was at Young and Ag, like it was shut down, so I had to get off or something. Yeah. 

[01:32:38] Heather: The damn subway. 

[01:32:39] Tabitha: And then be like, well, how do I get downtown? Yeah. And then this shuttle bus, this voice called out like, oh, hey, what direction are you going?

And I was like, downtown. And it was like, do you wanna, I, I grabbed a cab, do you wanna share? 

[01:32:51] Heather: Oh. 

[01:32:51] Tabitha: So I get in with him and we started talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. And I remember being like, he's so nice. Like, I felt a [01:33:00] pull toward him, but like 

[01:33:01] Heather: mm-hmm. 

[01:33:02] Tabitha: It was sort of like. You know, I wanna know him. I, I feel like I kind of do, but like, I didn't have, I wouldn't have had the courage then to be like, yeah, hey, maybe we'll go for, I mean, I didn't go for coffee with people also then yeah, I went for like drinks and then I took off.

[01:33:17] Zoe: Yeah, 

[01:33:17] Tabitha: yeah. And so I just went about my life. But I remember the feeling and I remember afterwards sort of doing a little social media like Hmm. And then couldn't find him and then like went to LinkedIn and was like, I think this is him. But it also could be like a really old man. 

[01:33:32] Zoe: Yeah. 

[01:33:32] Tabitha: There's no picture, blah, blah.

But it's the right industry. So I believe I like added him, but it was just like went out on with my life. And then, um, uh. A year and a half ago around, it was like sort of newly single, a couple months or something like that. Yeah. Newly single. And my sister's like, you have to get it out there. Mm-hmm. 

[01:33:54] Heather: Yeah.

[01:33:54] Tabitha: And I'm making a, a dating app profile for you. I'm like, I don't think I can handle an app. No, no, no, [01:34:00] no, no. And she's like, she's 

[01:34:01] Heather: your spirit guide. She 

[01:34:01] Tabitha: is. She is 

[01:34:03] Heather: like, 

[01:34:03] Tabitha: she's so special. She's special. 

[01:34:04] Heather: Yeah. 

[01:34:05] Tabitha: Yeah. She's so special. So she did this, she made up this hinge profile and I was like, uh, I don't know if I can handle this.

And looked a little bit, I'm like, I can't do this. And anyways, um, a message came, came through, not that day, but 

[01:34:17] Zoe: mm-hmm. 

[01:34:18] Tabitha: Not long after. It was like, Hey, we met seven and a half years ago. No. 'cause it was then at the time, and it was like in a cab and this is what we talked about. And we both knew this person.

And I was like, that is crazy. That's, oh my God. Wow. So we made plans to like. Meet at the dog park. And that was so funny 'cause my sister was like, tab you're gonna meet someone like at a dog park. 

[01:34:43] Heather: Yeah. 

[01:34:43] Tabitha: Oh my God. Before that the 

[01:34:45] Heather: dog park 

[01:34:45] Tabitha: is not a Jack Park. So we went and I was like, so, 'cause I set my expectations of like, oh my God, this guy.

And I remember I felt something and what's it gonna be like? We didn't talk a whole lot, we just kind of like vibed, sipped coffee and watched the dogs and then [01:35:00] said goodbye. Mm-hmm. And then he was like, uh, you know, would you like go to to go to dinner? And it was like, yeah, like there's something, but like that wasn't like fireworks date.

Yeah. Right. It was just okay. 

[01:35:10] Heather: Mm-hmm. 

[01:35:11] Tabitha: And so I agreed to go to dinner and it was like dinner that we, like, first of all, I sat down and like looked at the mocktail list mm-hmm. And ordered one and he said all the same thing. And I said, no, no, no. Have a drink if you want. Yeah. I just don't drink. And he said, I haven't had a drink in over 10 years.

And I was like. You have more time than me. 

[01:35:31] Zoe: Wow. 

[01:35:32] Tabitha: But then I was also like, yes. 

Yes. 

[01:35:35] Heather: Wow. Is he sober for just for 

[01:35:37] Tabitha: fun or 

[01:35:38] Heather: is he He 

[01:35:39] Tabitha: just stopped one day. Wow. Or like one of those? Yeah, pretty much. Or like maybe drank a couple, like, but 

[01:35:44] Zoe: just drank a little bit too much one 

[01:35:45] Tabitha: time 

[01:35:45] Zoe: and then I was like, okay, 

[01:35:46] Tabitha: whatever.

I don't feel good when I drink. Hangovers are now lasting like a couple days, even if I only have a glass or two and like, yeah. He just recogniz. Like I don't, I've seen the pattern and people around me [01:36:00] family kind of thing, and I don't, and just that's it. So it's not part of the equation. Yeah. For us. Did you ever 

[01:36:07] Zoe: think that you wanted to date a sober person, like being sober?

[01:36:10] Tabitha: Mm. It wasn't like I need to. 

[01:36:13] Zoe: Mm-hmm. 

[01:36:13] Tabitha: I had it actually, I was very like, I'm not, I'm not dating anyone in the program. 

[01:36:18] Zoe: I've never, I've only made out with one person in the program. 

[01:36:20] Tabitha: I broke that rule once. 

[01:36:22] Zoe: Okay. Okay. You did date 

[01:36:23] Tabitha: in the program. Yeah. And that was the time of trying to fill this hole with things.

Yeah. And like that makes sense. 

[01:36:27] Zoe: Literally 

[01:36:28] Heather: finger 

[01:36:28] Zoe: to, 

[01:36:29] Tabitha: and it was like, I had this rule. Yeah. And then someone, this was in Miami. Someone walked in the room and I was like, 

[01:36:34] Heather: oh, nevermind. 

[01:36:36] Tabitha: Yeah. And I, and I, I, you know what? Looking, I know like I used him. Yeah, for sure. I used him, like at the time I was using work and using Netflix and using food and using mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. You know, all these other things. I just, he was another thing that I used to make myself Yeah. Like feel better. 

[01:36:50] Heather: Yeah. 

[01:36:50] Tabitha: And um, yeah, naturally it didn't work out, but luckily I had people in the program when like. You know, I positioned it as a kind of [01:37:00] for fun, which I'd never done before. 

[01:37:01] Heather: Yeah, 

[01:37:02] Tabitha: you got, and then I don't really do for fun.

So then I'm like, basically like, here's your drawer and pajamas I bought you. And he's like, what? And I'm like, what do you mean? No? Yeah, literally this is great. Look at our life. And like, you could live here. And he's kind of like back away slowly. And I'm just like, and I recognized it. And so I asked for help with other women in the program, like what do I do?

[01:37:23] Zoe: Mm-hmm. 

[01:37:24] Tabitha: And my friend, my friend Chloe's like, you sit him down and you say coffee when you did this. It made me feel, and therefore I've realized, I'm like, okay, let me write this down. So I did it. 

[01:37:34] Heather: Yeah. 

[01:37:34] Tabitha: Because I didn't know. I didn't The tools. Yeah. 

[01:37:36] Heather: Yeah. 

[01:37:36] Tabitha: And that's why I say a lot of people recovered the things I brought into the program.

It worked itself out. So I did, I had that conversation. When you did this, it made me feel in, therefore I realized, and he goes, I know, and it's okay. And you know, admitted, he said like, I am in another fellowship. In, uh, sa. 

[01:37:54] Heather: Okay. 

[01:37:55] Tabitha: Sa 

[01:37:55] Heather: a. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

[01:37:56] Tabitha: And I'm sort of just back in it now and starting [01:38:00] out again.

Right. I guess Implied relapse or whatever. Yeah. So, you know, I'm, I've got some things to work out. Yeah. But so, you know, like if I was in a good place, it would be I, this would be like the most ideal drink kind of thing. Yeah. I was like, yeah, okay. But I handled it. Okay. I left it not having to make an amends, learn some things about myself for 

[01:38:20] Zoe: sure.

[01:38:20] Heather: Yeah. 

[01:38:21] Tabitha: And that was my one time. 

[01:38:22] Heather: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Zoe always tells me when I go on dates, go on multiple days with multiple people and don't share all my life stories right away. It's hard because I do that too. She's never taken 

[01:38:30] Tabitha: my advice. 

[01:38:30] Heather: Well, I try. It's hard. I try, I really do try, and I just don't know what's going on.

But every time I meet someone I'm like, oh no, I love them. They're gonna be mine forever. It's very intense, but I'm doing my best. 

[01:38:42] Tabitha: Do you find too, doing your best, um. And with men specifically, probably both of you. Mm-hmm. That you, um, because they don't like you, you both created today together. Mm-hmm. Like such a place to feel safe and share.

Yeah. And like men don't find that as often. Yeah. So when they do, they also get [01:39:00] this c this like Yeah. They feel like, oh, you are the, you're it because they experienced something like they haven't before. Oh yeah. 

[01:39:08] Zoe: I think even just like sharing that we're sober to men, I think that even in itself opens up.

[01:39:14] Heather: Yeah. 

[01:39:14] Zoe: A lot of like vulnerability for men. Mm-hmm. Because I immediately say, I am sober. I'm a crazy person. And they're like, oh, like I, I can like offer something else then to you too. Yeah. In exchange of you being vulnerable and telling me that. 

[01:39:29] Tabitha: Yeah. 

[01:39:30] Heather: Yeah. I've, I've had so many conversations with men who have never had a mental health conversation before, and it's very obvious.

And I'm like, whoa, here we go. Like, it's just all of their information. Yeah. And I'm like, yeah, no, I know. I know you're gay. Everyone's gay. Everyone's a little bit gay. 

[01:39:45] Tabitha: Seriously? He had rivalry. 

[01:39:47] Heather: Yeah, he had rivalry. 

[01:39:48] Tabitha: I told you about the time, I think I, I think I told you this, where I like, you know, it was a friend of a friend's.

We were kind of friends and then we had a little, maybe crushing each other a little. Let's see. But we live in different cities, so we're talking on the phone. Mm-hmm. We're doing [01:40:00] that thing. And like he asked me, what's the hardest thing you've ever been through? So I proceed to tell him. Oh, so what I told you guys today, yeah.

Mm-hmm. About, and then I was sober at the time, like maybe a coup two years or something. Yeah. So, um, and then, so I, I don't know how long I spoke for in barely 30, 40 minutes, and I was like, so what about you? And he was like, well, I had to get my helicopter pilot license and like, I had to do it in like two weeks.

And it was really hard. 

[01:40:24] Heather: Like No, totally, 

[01:40:24] Tabitha: totally, totally, 

[01:40:25] Heather: totally, totally. That's the same. 

[01:40:27] Tabitha: No. And that's when we were like, 

[01:40:29] Heather: yeah. 

[01:40:30] Tabitha: Yeah. We didn't say it out loud, but it was understood. It was like, yeah. Friends. Yes. 

[01:40:34] Heather: Yeah, 

[01:40:34] Tabitha: friends. Yeah. 

[01:40:35] Heather: This is weird on different pages, like for sure friends. 

[01:40:38] Tabitha: Yeah. 

[01:40:39] Heather: I feel I'd be like, before you go, tell me about your relationship with your dad, but also we can't do this.

[01:40:43] Zoe: Yeah. 

[01:40:44] Heather: Um, it would be, I think. 2026, we've been talking about new things, things we wanna mm-hmm. Put energy towards. And since you're here, it would be crazy to not ask for your book recommendations. Oh, oh gosh. Because I for sure wanna read. Do you have any, do you 

[01:40:59] Tabitha: [01:41:00] wanna know what's coming out for us? Yes.

That I'm excited about, but I also have, I also love, like, other books and publishers too, of course. Mm-hmm. But, um, okay. Invisibly unwell. Mm-hmm. I mean, March, I think I wanna see women being like, fuck, you know? Mm-hmm. Like, me too. Yeah. Um, like to spread the word about that. And I think she's like, she's a good writer.

She doesn't take herself too seriously. She's funny. It's like a right sized account. Mm-hmm. Taking her time to, to, to write it. And, and page, she's really sharp too. 

[01:41:28] Heather: Mm. 

[01:41:28] Tabitha: Um, so there's that one, uh, there's another one coming out that's, I mean, obviously does touch on like. We'll touch on mental health and addiction too.

But this woman works with young incarcerated people in the US in prisons. Okay. 

[01:41:43] Heather: Okay. 

[01:41:43] Tabitha: And she did that for, you know, she's, she's a great story too, but like her story about, you know, working with these young people and like, you get to know them in such a, like, human level and see how, so 

[01:41:55] Zoe: like under 18. 

[01:41:56] Tabitha: Yeah.

Yeah. 

[01:41:57] Zoe: Wow. 

[01:41:58] Tabitha: Juvenile prisons [01:42:00] and the worst. Yeah. She's sent to the worst. Yeah. First. And so like that is, um, when's 

[01:42:04] Zoe: that coming? 

[01:42:04] Tabitha: It's called the light. The light within the walls. Um, and that's coming out in May. 

[01:42:09] Zoe: Okay. Okay. 

[01:42:10] Tabitha: Yeah. And then there's one that I'm really proud of that's kind of a nice story. 

[01:42:14] Heather: Mm-hmm.

[01:42:14] Tabitha: Um, it's called When We Forgive. 

[01:42:16] Heather: Hmm. 

[01:42:17] Tabitha: And it's a actually collection of stories. 

[01:42:19] Heather: Mm-hmm. 

[01:42:19] Tabitha: Um, and some of our authors came together with like my editor and was like, we wanna do something that's like a giving back project to the foundation side of life to paper. 

[01:42:28] Heather: Okay. Yeah. 

[01:42:28] Tabitha: Which takes like the therapeutic life to paper process into like mental health and treatment centers.

[01:42:33] Heather: Love that. Amazing. 

[01:42:34] Tabitha: To help people s support their healing. Wanna do something for the foundation. Let's write, let's write a book together. What's it gonna be about? 

[01:42:40] Zoe: Mm-hmm. 

[01:42:41] Tabitha: Through sharing our stories, forgiveness came up. So it's a collection of stories of, of like forgiving when it's been like the hardest thing mm-hmm.

Or finding forgiveness for yourself or, you know, wanting it to be forgiven or, 

[01:42:54] Zoe: yeah. 

[01:42:54] Tabitha: So it's, and it touches on mm-hmm. You know, all our key subject matter love. Mm-hmm. It is like, like [01:43:00] myself having like fathers an addict and falling into it myself and other people talk about relationship with parents Yeah.

And all kinds of things. Um, I'm really proud of that one. Yeah. Because it's like, I love the spirit of it. And how like the, the, the, it's almost like the traditions, the 12 traditions Yeah. Have like. Applied themselves here. Not intentionally, but I think because there are people, people there are authors in that anthology who are also in recovery, right?

Mm-hmm. And it's so crazy that, um, the doctor, uh, at my treatment center who ran a lot of these sessions that helped me understand addiction and the brain and supported me through those two months, Dr. Vi Tarman has shared her story Oh my gosh. In this book as well. Oh. And she, um. Her stuff she's sort of wheelhouse known for is like food addiction.

[01:43:50] Zoe: Oh. 

[01:43:51] Tabitha: And she has right up 

[01:43:52] Zoe: your alley. 

[01:43:52] Tabitha: There you go. She's got books out, like successful books out on that already. But this is the first time that she's like, has told, like put in a very personal [01:44:00] story. Yeah. And I like hold that with such like, 

[01:44:03] Heather: yeah. 

[01:44:03] Tabitha: I feel so grateful that she's like part of it, you know?

Yeah. And she was my doctor in treatment and now we Full 

[01:44:09] Heather: circle. Full circle. 

[01:44:10] Tabitha: Yeah. 

[01:44:11] Heather: Amazing. Is 

[01:44:12] Tabitha: that one 

[01:44:12] Heather: out, that book? 

[01:44:13] Tabitha: No, that's coming out in um, uh, April. 

[01:44:16] Heather: Okay. All 

[01:44:16] Tabitha: 3rd of March, April, may. Like literally 

[01:44:19] Zoe: so good. 

[01:44:19] Tabitha: They're coming out. Like they're stacking, they're coming out. Uh, like 

[01:44:23] Zoe: yeah. 

[01:44:24] Tabitha: You know, there's, I feel like I'm excited to read 

[01:44:26] Zoe: now.

Me too. Hearing all that. Awesome. I like, I need to read. What would you recommend someone who is struggling with addiction right now, if any listeners are. 

[01:44:36] Tabitha: I mean, the big book. 

[01:44:37] Zoe: I know, I was gonna say like anything but the big book, 

[01:44:41] Tabitha: I know, you know, I, I can only share like what I read. Mm-hmm. Um, one of the first addiction books I read was A Million Tiny Pieces.

Mm-hmm. Okay. I think we talked about this. Yeah. 

[01:44:51] Heather: Yeah. 

[01:44:51] Tabitha: I don't know why, but this is before I even knew by like suspected, I don't know if I'd even been using drugs at that [01:45:00] point, but I don't know. There was something in that book that I just wanted to stay in there. Like I 

[01:45:05] Heather: Yeah, 

[01:45:05] Tabitha: I understood him. 

[01:45:07] Heather: Yeah. Yeah.

[01:45:07] Tabitha: Um, but 

[01:45:09] Heather: we talk about this in sobriety all the time. It's like, it doesn't actually matter what people have gone it. Maybe it's not addiction, maybe it's not what we went through, but. When you get sober, you, you can relate to a lot of stuff. Yeah. Like you can relate to, I'm not a mom, but moms talk about their hardships.

And I'm like, I get that in a certain way. The cult thing. Like of course we've never been in a cult. But 

[01:45:35] Tabitha: yeah. 

[01:45:36] Heather: The ideas, the self worth, the lack, therefore like that come out of it is very similar. Yeah. And I think it's very cool that you're able to speak with multiple different people about their experiences and bring it to paper.

It's amazing. Yeah. 

[01:45:51] Tabitha: I think that it's the judgment. Yeah. My grandmother's talked about like one of the things she's, she's got from attending meetings to support me or my father has [01:46:00] been like judgment. Like her judgments come down and down and down and down. Mm-hmm. 

[01:46:04] Heather: Yeah. 

[01:46:04] Tabitha: And I think that's, I mean, that's my goal.

Like, 

[01:46:07] Heather: yeah, 

[01:46:07] Tabitha: I felt judged all the time. So the goal is to like, you know, never make anyone feel 

[01:46:13] Heather: for sure 

[01:46:13] Tabitha: that way. 'cause I know. How it felt. Right. 

[01:46:17] Heather: Yeah. Detrimental. 

[01:46:17] Tabitha: Yeah. That's why I like going up to people in the street who are like, you know 

[01:46:21] Heather: mm-hmm. 

[01:46:22] Tabitha: Unhoused. 

[01:46:23] Heather: Yeah. 

[01:46:23] Tabitha: And, uh, talking to them. Yeah. If they'll, if they'll talk to me.

Mm-hmm. My sister had to go to, um, the hospital recently. Nothing bad. It's all good. But, you know, um, but at the time we had to check on something and mm-hmm. There's a woman there who was brought in and she was so, I mean, she was very agitated, she was really angry. She was yelling and yelling and, you know, and touched me, and it was a whole scene.

And I don't know, they ended up, you know, taking her somewhere and then they brought her back outside and it was like a really cold day. 

[01:46:53] Heather: Mm-hmm. 

[01:46:54] Tabitha: So I'm like, I'm just gonna go outside for a second. My sister's like, don't talk to her. I'm like, I don't, she's gonna [01:47:00] go outside. You're like, I'm 

[01:47:00] Zoe: already on the trajectory, babe.

[01:47:02] Tabitha: And then I'm just like, yeah, 

[01:47:04] Zoe: yeah. 

[01:47:05] Tabitha: Is 

[01:47:06] Zoe: everything okay? 

[01:47:07] Tabitha: Yeah. And of she wasn't in the space to be able to, to hear that. Right? Yeah. And I realized that, I'll just say very quickly, but I had to 

[01:47:14] Zoe: Yeah. Yeah. 

I 

[01:47:15] Tabitha: had to. 

[01:47:15] Zoe: It's almost like our responsibility as sober woman, you know? You just 

[01:47:19] Tabitha: had to Yeah. 

[01:47:20] Heather: Yeah. 

[01:47:21] Zoe: To make sure when you come across like something, like you do, like say something.

[01:47:25] Tabitha: Mm-hmm. 

[01:47:26] Zoe: For them, for yourself. 

[01:47:27] Tabitha: Mm-hmm. 

[01:47:27] Zoe: To know that you did like what you said one thing, and that's what they, 

[01:47:32] Heather: and 

[01:47:33] Zoe: something, if they want to respond Yeah, they can. If not, at least you like tried, you know? 

[01:47:37] Tabitha: Yeah. 

[01:47:38] Heather: At least for that moment, they. The, no, they're not the only one in the world. 

[01:47:43] Zoe: Yeah. 

[01:47:43] Heather: You know? 

[01:47:43] Zoe: Yeah.

[01:47:44] Heather: That's a huge one. 

[01:47:45] Tabitha: Mm-hmm. There are, people have said things to me along the way too that I maybe wasn't, didn't receive as well, but they planted a seed somewhere. Yeah. For sure. You know, 

[01:47:53] Zoe: and when that seed's planted, you can't like not look away from it. 

[01:47:55] Tabitha: Yeah. You know, it's like kindness. Just kindness.

Kindness. 

[01:47:58] Zoe: Yeah. 

[01:47:58] Tabitha: Kindness. No [01:48:00] judgment. Like just that 

[01:48:01] Heather: Yeah. 

[01:48:01] Tabitha: I think helps me. There were some of those nudges I was getting to get me to wear. Where I am today, I hope. 

[01:48:08] Heather: Yeah. Ugh. Well, this has been an amazing conversation. I honestly, we could sit here all day. Yeah, I 

[01:48:13] Tabitha: know. 

[01:48:14] Heather: But 

[01:48:14] Tabitha: I love these amazed. 

[01:48:16] Heather: Yeah. 

[01:48:16] Tabitha: Yeah. 

[01:48:16] Heather: This is so cool.

I'm so excited to read. And I'm sure the Undrunkies are like, oh, okay, now 2026, we're gonna buy all these books, put 'em on our shelves. And I'm 

[01:48:24] Tabitha: really excited too. You created, create all these special space here for people for me. Like it's, it's like it's been, you know, turned around on me. That's amazing.

[01:48:33] Heather: The, it's the best thing to like just talk to sober people, to talk to people doing things and caring about others. It's the best part of this whole thing. 

[01:48:41] Tabitha: Yeah. 

[01:48:42] Heather: But thank you so much for coming. Yeah, thank you. We're so excited for these. March, April, may. 

[01:48:47] Tabitha: Mm-hmm. 

[01:48:47] Heather: March, April, may, big months. 

[01:48:49] Tabitha: September. Yeah.

[01:48:50] Heather: Amazing. Be a 

[01:48:51] Tabitha: fun year this year. Yeah. Ugh. 

[01:48:53] Heather: Well, thank you so much. We're so proud of you. Yeah. So proud of you. He's so proud of you. And we're proud of you. Proud of you. You. [01:49:00] Alright. Bye.

—

Thanks for listening to Girl Undrunk. You can follow us on Instagram and TikTok @girlundrunkpodcast or send me an email at heather@girlundrunk.com. 

And before we go, thank you to our amazing producer, Ariane Michaud, and support from her team at Consciously Produced. Martin Nuñez-Bonilla for the graphics. Ian Sitt for setting up our sound, and Daniel James for the music and final edits. This podcast would not be possible without you.

This episode was proudly produced by Consciously Produced LLC.