#35: A Little Bit of A Lobotomy (feat. Leah Sherry)

Nov 19

This week, Heather sits down with her hilariously brilliant dog-park friend Leah — a sober therapist with a life story that swings from chaotic teen addiction to deep, grounded recovery. They talk about early drug culture, shame, relapse, therapy myths, mother–daughter dynamics, what sobriety actually feels like years in, and why intimacy is so terrifying for so many of us. It's dark, funny, honest, and full of the kind of real talk that makes this show what it is.

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A Little Bit of A Lobotomy Trancript

Heather: [00:00:00] This podcast covers sensitive topics that may be difficult for some listeners. Please take care while listening. Are you okay? Yeah. Does it

Leah Sherry: feel good? Yeah. I just don't want it to fall off.

Heather: Yeah, we're good. It's gonna fall off. We're good. Okay. Okay. Um, does my face look fine? Do I have anything

Leah Sherry: you look?

Thank

Heather: you for saying that in my own house.

Hi everyone. Hi. I'm Junkies. Welcome back to Girl Undrunk. I'm Heather and I am so fucking excited. Today. I'm sitting here with my you guest at Park Friend. This is my park friend. Okay. They do exist. This is Leah. Leah. What's your last name? Sherry. Oh God. Right. Of course. Leah, Sherry. That's a really good last name.

It's a really great name. Did you ever take a [00:01:00] last name? First and last? Did you take, take a last

Leah Sherry: name? Take

Heather: his last name?

Leah Sherry: No, you didn't take your ex last name. There was no marriage. There was nothing. Oh, there wasn't contractual about the arrangement.

Heather: Oh, I like that. Mm-hmm. Would you ever get into a contractual?

Leah Sherry: I never wanted to, and I definitely wouldn't now. Yeah. Now that I know what happens. Yeah,

Heather: yeah, yeah, yeah. It's too much.

Leah Sherry: I'm not sure I understand the purpose right now.

Heather: No. I think it made a lot of sense back in the day. I can get my own credit card, I can vote

Leah Sherry: no. And you know what? That's great. And that's enough.

That's enough. I don't, so why would I sign a legal document?

Heather: Ah, to be with a man I wouldn't even trust. Mm-hmm.

Leah Sherry: I wouldn't trust that. Mm-hmm.

Heather: Um, but you were common law, right?

Leah Sherry: Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

Heather: Okay. So today my friend Leah is here. Leah is sober. A therapist. Mm-hmm. And I'm gonna ask her every single question I have for all therapists.

Well, we have an agenda today, but you know, I go off script. But first of all, I [00:02:00] want to let everyone know what we're drinking today. What are we drinking as two sober cups? Was wine your thing? Did you like a wine?

Leah Sherry: Not initially, but in my second round of using, I did partake in In wine. Wine. Well, wine is, uh, very socially appropriate.

Drinking.

Heather: It's very appropriate. And you can drink pretty much as much as you want without anyone really noticing.

Leah Sherry: It's the gateway. Yeah. When you are a street level addict like I was, and then you sober up and you sort out your life like I did, you can reenter addiction, having wine with dinner because nobody's gonna balk at that.

It's just wine with dinner.

Heather: Right, right. She's better now.

Leah Sherry: Mm-hmm.

Heather: Well, you know what's funny, I went to visit my mom recently and we were talking with one of her friends about sobriety. And she said to me, she's like, I didn't know that you were gonna be sober. Like, I didn't know after rehab that the plan was full sobriety for the rest of your life.

Abstinence. Yes. Yeah. She, lots of

Leah Sherry: people are surprised by that. Yeah.

Heather: She just thought that like, I was gonna go kind of reset and then be able to drink like a [00:03:00] normal person. Yeah. Which I think I knew I was gonna have to stop. I think I had learned enough about addiction through like Dak Shepherd's podcast that it's like, oh, it isn't all or nothing kind of deal for me.

Mm-hmm. But it was just funny to hear that from her. 'cause I would just assume, like if I had gone home and had a glass of wine with dinner, they'd all be like, yeah, yeah. You know, what are you doing? Yeah. Yeah. But it's interesting perspective. Speaking of wine.

Leah Sherry: Speaking of wine, tell me about your wine.

Heather: Hey guys, this is poor sport.

Alana is the creator of this. I love her so much. Drink poor sport. 20% discount code, zero proof. Okay. Go to their website, drink poor sport.com and get your little discount. That's all. Okay, let's, let's open these. Let's crack 'em. Let's see what goes on.

Leah Sherry: It's been a long time since I've cracked.

Heather: Is it triggering?

No. You gonna go go down to the park later and find someone under a bridge? That's it. That's it. Don't explode. Look how cute these little glasses are. Oh my

Leah Sherry: God.

Heather: She is.

Leah Sherry: How, if you had the shakes in the morning, how would you ever [00:04:00] drink a drink like this? You know? Mm.

Heather: You wouldn't. I kind of do have the shakes in them.

I have the shakes always. I think I don't eat enough and I'm dehydrated.

Leah Sherry: Oh, okay. Okay, okay. Wow. I used to

Heather: be, I used to go like very hungover and then drinking mm-hmm. To my nail appointments, and so my hands would be like, oh Lord, this over the thing, and they'd be like, holding them. I hated that.

Leah Sherry: Mm. Do

Heather: you like

Leah Sherry: it?

I do, I do. It's good, right? Yeah. It's, it's, there's nothing wrong with this drink.

Heather: There's

Leah Sherry: nothing wrong with this drink. There is nothing wrong with this drink. It's a

Heather: perfect wine

Leah Sherry: and it's very refreshing, but also it's a nice touch if you're hosting. I think to have something like this that hits the spot but doesn't inebriate your guests.

Totally. I can't stand when I can sense the buzz sinking in amongst the folks.

Heather: Yeah.

Leah Sherry: I'm with,

Heather: we always say like, if you're going to someone's house now, like you usually would like bring a bottle of wine or vodka or something. And that's [00:05:00] like, what do you bring someone who doesn't drink?

Leah Sherry: Oh, there are options.

Heather: my God, it's so nice now. Thank God. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, Leah, do you wanna tell me a little bit about yourself? A little bit about yourself. Don't go crazy. You don't have to go crazy. You don't have to tell. Tell me your inner demons. What's your life looking like right now?

Leah Sherry: Right now I am, uh, working a lot.

Mm-hmm. And parenting, uh, taking care of my dog. I'm in the dog park. She's a small demon. Pretty regular. Yeah. I have a small demon,

Heather: small demon.

Leah Sherry: So I don't have anything interesting or exciting to say about what I'm doing in my life right now. And that's exactly

Heather: perfect

Leah Sherry: how you

Heather: want it. I

Leah Sherry: intended things to be Yeah.

For myself at this age. Yeah, I like

Heather: that. Yeah.

Leah Sherry: Uh, I mean, I worked very hard, obviously. Mm-hmm. Who doesn't? Um, and I'm sort of living in the reward of that right now. [00:06:00] I have my own business. I have my own practice. Mm-hmm. I love my work, I love my clients. I also have this JOB job that I've always had, which was a big part of

Heather: Yeah.

Leah Sherry: Sorting out my life and getting sort of normal. Mm-hmm. Um, after my first round in addiction. And so this job, you know, I do it, uh, it's a steady salary. Um, so essentially I have three jobs.

Heather: Parenting is one of them.

Leah Sherry: No parenting is, what are your three jobs? So I own my, yeah. My therapy practice Blue Robert Therapy.

Heather: Okay. Okay. You

Leah Sherry: own

Heather: that? Yeah. I didn't know you owned it. Mm-hmm. Oh my God, you're so busy. Mm-hmm. Look at you. Mm-hmm. Okay.

Leah Sherry: So

Heather: that

Leah Sherry: and, and then I have my private practice, which is just me and my clients.

Heather: Oh, that's not through. Yeah.

Leah Sherry: Okay. My, my practice, blue Rabbit is a therapist that work for me. Okay. So I provide them with clients.

I supervise them. Okay. I support them in their work. [00:07:00] Nice. Do you like that part of it? Uh. I do now. Mm-hmm. But there were a lot of learning curves I'd imagine. It's

Heather: tricky when like it's, it's therapy. Mm-hmm. It's like we have an idea about people, regardless of like how open-minded you are. We all have an idea of people and how they should be treated and mm-hmm.

Spoken to. And if someone else is going off your script, I'd imagine being like, there was a lot I came

Leah Sherry: up against, but the biggest thing that was difficult for me that, um, had me scale back on growing a giant group practice and managing a ton of therapists was really the thing of acquiring clients right now is very difficult because this province is saturated with therapists.

Heather: Really?

Leah Sherry: Yeah. So if you want to acquire clients mm-hmm. You have to market. Okay. And marketing is essentially manipulative. And I don't mean that as a negative thing, but we're, we're, we're essentially trying [00:08:00] to convince someone to take money from their pocket and put it into our pocket. Yeah. So we have to present ourselves as having something to offer that solves a problem, and we're really unique and exceptional at it.

Heather: Okay. Yeah.

Leah Sherry: And when you're doing that with something like therapy, the, the, the core belief that I have in therapy is that it is a very intimate, unique relationship that is based on, uh, a mutual clique that's unconscious. Right. Essentially. Right. Right. So how can I convince you that you need to work with me, you need to work with these therapists.

Yeah. That's really something that I feel strongly, you as a client should be deciding.

Heather: Okay. Totally. So you're not just like, come on, everybody. Everybody like you understand it has to click.

Leah Sherry: Yeah. So when I was running huge Google ad campaigns, you would have people Googling therapy in the middle of the night in [00:09:00] crisis.

Heather: Yeah.

Leah Sherry: Who would kind of the next day not really be sure they wanted to come to therapy or not really be, you know, essentially at a stage in their journey where they were willing to sink in. And the kind of work that I do is we're sinking in.

Heather: Right? Right. We're going deep.

Leah Sherry: Yeah. Yeah. So do

Heather: you like to go, um, childhood stuff?

Do you like to do that?

Leah Sherry: I, I like it if it's relevant for the client. Sure. But I know it's at the core of everything, so. Yeah, unfortunately. Yeah. I often say like, I'll joke around about it 'cause you know, it's very cliche and it's such a trope, but it does come up. Yeah. And

Heather: like eventually we're gonna have to talk about your mom.

Pretty much. Yeah.

Leah Sherry: I think that's how I got into therapy school. I was in a group interview and it was all very, you know, stressful and everyone was nervous and, uh, I kind of cracked the joke to ease the tension. Mm-hmm. The question was something like, what's your [00:10:00] experience with this? What's, what's your take on that?

I just know it's likely my mom's fault. Yeah. And I saw the, the two, you know, faculty who were conducting the interview, they looked very relieved. Mm-hmm.

Heather: That

Leah Sherry: I had said something.

Heather: Okay.

Leah Sherry: That made everyone laugh.

Heather: Oh my God. That brings up so much for me already. Like, I so wanna go into like, the relationships between mothers and daughters.

Mm-hmm. 'cause that's like so intense. But we can't get into the right now. We'll go, we'll get into that when Zoe's here. Okay. Okay. Because she had like a, yeah,

Leah Sherry: that was my first, uh. Focus as a therapist. Really? I wanted to focus on mother and mothers. And daughters.

Heather: Yeah. Okay. Okay. Because there is like a big thing there.

Leah Sherry: Huge.

Heather: Right? It's like, I feel like most people have complicated, even if they're like amazing relationships, it's complicated. Mm. With your mom. Oh my god. It's, uh,

Leah Sherry: foundational.

Heather: I feel like it's the most important, most impactful relationship. Mm-hmm. We probably all have boys too, but they just tend to like [00:11:00] mm-hmm.

Love their moms and then wanna fuck 'em. Mm. Do you ever feel like that? Not about your mom? Did you ever have a, a man that you had to tell you can't have sex with your mom?

Leah Sherry: No, that has not come up. Oh, okay. But I'm starting to think maybe I should lean in that direction. I don't know. I mean, I'm not thinking of anyone in particular, but

Heather: yeah, I think look back on your roster and be like, who was in love with their mother?

Uh, I'm telling you, it's out there. I feel a little unvalidated by that, but, okay. It's okay. Yeah.

Leah Sherry: Sorry. I, you know, you know what? It's okay. I have to be truthful, but I, I'll give it some thought and

Heather: we'll get back

Leah Sherry: to it

Heather: at the park, part two. Perfect. Um, can you. What is your today, what is your relationship with alcohol and substances today?

Leah Sherry: Today I live, you know, without alcohol. Mm-hmm. Without any drugs of any kind, other than, you know, the usual over the counter stuff. I don't, I, I mean, I don't, I wear this like a loose garment, so I'm [00:12:00] not rigid. Mm-hmm. But I am committed to total abstinence. I don't know if that makes sense. Okay. So I guess I am rigid about total abstinence.

Yeah. I don't, I don't drink any alcohol whatsoever. Mm-hmm. Um, but I'm not someone who feels nervous about alcohol and food. Uh, sure. Okay. Like cooking mouthwash with alcohol in it. Like, I don't,

Heather: yeah. Yeah.

Leah Sherry: Yeah.

Heather: What about substances like marijuana?

Leah Sherry: No. No. No. Cannabis. So cannabis, everything is, everything is done.

No cannabis. No. I, I mean, I don't, uh, I don. Really, uh, feel comfortable in any kind of altered state

Heather: really.

Leah Sherry: And I don't know if that's about, um, being triggered per se. If, like, if I were to try a gummy to get to sleep mm-hmm. Would I start eating gummies and then start

Heather: drinking and then doing cocaine drinking and start

Leah Sherry: smoking pot.

Like I, I don't know if it's [00:13:00] that I, I am really just comfortable and acquainted with this version of myself

Heather: Yeah.

Leah Sherry: That isn't wired to using something to change how I feel.

Heather: Right. How long have you been sober?

Leah Sherry: This last round is, uh, it's about three and a half years.

Heather: Okay. Nice. Mm-hmm. And you don't think about it, right?

You don't think about alcohol?

Leah Sherry: No.

Heather: Yeah, I think, no. I, I don't,

Leah Sherry: and I'm, that's, I'm not bragging like I Totally, it's just.

Heather: No, I think, I think Zoe is a little more like that. Like she doesn't think about it. I think she was surprised at the zero bar event that we did. I said like, oh, I think about alcohol all the time.

Leah Sherry: Mm, you do?

Heather: Yeah. And I was surprised that everyone was surprised. And I was like, oh, fuck, is this a problem? And I think like, yeah, with what I'm doing here, like, yeah. Talking about sobriety, I'm not thinking about alcohol as in like, I want drink it. Mm-hmm. But it's on my mind. Mm-hmm. Because it's, I'm journaling about it.

I'm like curating episodes, I'm thinking about it. So I'm like, [00:14:00] alcohol is on my mind, but I don't want it.

Leah Sherry: Yes.

Heather: You know? So I, I'm trying to figure out if that's like problematic. Zoe thinks I need to go to aa. 'cause that's like what it does. It like relieves you of the obsession thinking about alcohol.

Leah Sherry: Hmm.

Well, I mean, I think you might be onto something. I wonder if the obsession is related to your work.

Heather: Mm-hmm.

Leah Sherry: And I don't even, like small o obsession. I don't know. Yeah. If it even qualifies as such. It's on your mind. It's on your mind. It's on

Heather: my mind. Mm-hmm. And I, I have heard people, like, when you say like, you don't think about alcohol, I'm like, that's nice.

Like kind of in the same way. And I'll

Leah Sherry: say It's very nice.

Heather: Yeah. Well, you know what? I don't think about food anymore.

Leah Sherry: Right. So, and that's

Heather: incredible.

Leah Sherry: These are the things, like this is what we're, this is, this is, I think, you know, we have this, there's a context for lots of things contribute to how we hit bottom.

Mm-hmm. And realize we need to stop and then do the very difficult thing of [00:15:00] stopping. Yeah. Right. A lot contributes to that. Yeah. And I think a huge part of what contributes to that is, is that we want to be free because we try to stop. Yeah. And we can't.

Heather: Yeah.

Leah Sherry: And, and for me that was the, the, that was what weighed the heaviest was that there was this thing that, um.

Had such a massive control over me.

Heather: Do you remember a moment when you were like, oh shit, I can't stop this. Mm-hmm. Or, oh shit, I'm addicted to this. Mm-hmm. Or again, or something like that. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Do you remember those moments? Oh yeah. Mm-hmm.

Leah Sherry: Oh yeah. There's many. Yeah, there's many. There's many. Well, I mean, and this is a, this is classic for us when we're not enjoying it, when we're not even feeling high anymore.

Yeah. Uh, when we're alone. Yeah. Using alone.

Heather: Mm-hmm.

Leah Sherry: Chronically using alone. Um, I, I

Heather: remember this one time I was sitting on my couch and I'm pretty sure, oh, it was after my ex had broken up with me because of all this alcohol bullshit. Mm. [00:16:00]

Leah Sherry: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And

Heather: I was sitting alone on my, in my old apartment and I was sitting on the couch and I wasn't drunk.

I like, don't even know if I'd had alcohol that day. Maybe I had already had like at lunch or whatever. But I'm sitting on my couch and I'm. Thinking I didn't have any alcohol in the house, and I like just muscle memory and like going to Uber Eats to order wine rack and I'm like, Ugh, I don't really want to drink right now.

Like I don't feel like I want to. Mm-hmm. And then my brain, I like heard myself say like, no, but you have to.

Leah Sherry: Yeah.

Heather: Like, no, you have to. 'cause Yeah. And I don't even know why. Well, I guess that's the addiction. Yeah. But I'm like, why in this moment where I actually feel like I just wanna watch a movie and not drink, my body was like, you don't want to now, but you will want to and you're gonna want to tomorrow morning.

So just get the alcohol. We know the habit of it. Yeah. It was weird sometimes, like fighting against it, but then obviously the next day I'm like, no, I want alcohol. Mm-hmm. But mm-hmm. Yeah. Those moments are really scary when you're like, oh, I'm fucking out of [00:17:00] control.

Leah Sherry: Out of control. And watching myself from a distance go through the motions of.

Acquiring, finding ways and means. Yeah. Getting it, going through the thing of setting up what I need to set up so then I can then,

Heather: so sneaky. So much work. So much work. So much work. I know. I

Leah Sherry: really felt that at the end. And when I quit, I noticed the absence of that work.

Heather: Holy shit. Right. I was shocked.

You're like, my day is free. I was shocked. Let's talk a little bit about your journey with sobriety. Mm. Alcohol journey. Journey. Yes, yes, yes. Substances. Yes. Yes, yes. When did you first, when did you first get into alcohol or what was your substance of choice? Well, you know, so

Leah Sherry: I ha it's, uh, I have two lives of as an addict.

Okay. Um, so I started drinking and using when I was young teenager. Mm-hmm. Um, high school. Yeah. Oh, for sure. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I probably started drinking [00:18:00] regularly, um, like weekend styles. Okay. When I was in grade nine.

Heather: I

Leah Sherry: know how old you are then, but, and

Heather: is that like 14? Yeah, 14. Is that 14? 14? Is that something that your parents are okay with you doing?

Well, I don't think

Leah Sherry: they would've loved it, but mm-hmm. Sort of didn't. If they knew it was happening, we didn't discuss it. I mean, my parents are big partiers, heavy drinkers. Oh, they are? I grew up around that. Yeah.

Heather: Okay. So it probably wouldn't have been an issue either way.

Leah Sherry: Drinking wasn't considered here nor there.

Heather: Okay? Mm-hmm. Okay. So we're drinking on weekends. We're friends, we're drinking on weekends. We're

Leah Sherry: gonna bush parties, we're stealing bits of alcohol from normal people's parents, liquor cabinets. So I remember there was lots of minty things mixed with peachy things. Yeah. Like, you know, and I, I sort of tolerated that for a while until I found what I liked.

Heather: Did your parents have the classic liquor cabinet?

Leah Sherry: No. Okay. No, there was, you know, my mom had a bottle of [00:19:00] rye on the counter and Oh. 'cause they were drinking it a bottle of coke in the fridge for the mix. And my dad had skids flats, cases of beer.

Heather: Okay. Throughout. Okay.

Leah Sherry: Garage, kitchen yard.

Heather: Right. So it was never a fear when you started drinking.

You weren't like, oh, this is scary for me. You're like, this is what I'm probably gonna do eventually. Oh no,

Leah Sherry: this was fantastic. This felt amazing. I mean, okay. But it's interesting 'cause when I look back initially, of course alcohol is disgusting. Yeah. If you don't have a taste for it, um, and especially the stuff you're drinking, like you don't know what you're doing when you're drinking.

You don't, you don't have a preference. You don't have a, have a pallet for it.

Heather: Yeah. And we used to call it, I think we used to call it kitchen sink.

Leah Sherry: Kitchen sink.

Heather: Yeah. Yeah. You're

Leah Sherry: drinking the kitchen sink. The kitchen

Heather: sink, whatever's under there

Leah Sherry: rose. Yeah. Yeah. But there were a few of us who sort of, and we were the alcoholics.

Who figured out what we liked and kind of found our way into that. So. Okay.

Heather: In high school?

Leah Sherry: In high school, yeah. Okay.

Heather: So this is interesting to me because my high school experience was so different. [00:20:00] I was dancing, I was terrified, my parents were strict. I, there was no drinking going on until like senior year and I like kissed a boy and had a drink for the first time.

Leah Sherry: Oh, okay.

Heather: I know. Crazy girl. Same night. Oh yeah.

Leah Sherry: Okay.

Heather: Oh hell yeah.

Leah Sherry: Okay.

Heather: But I, um, I. I don't know where I was going with this. Yeah, so you, yeah. So you already knew, you were one of the ones who were like, okay, I'm gonna get the alcohol. Like, I'm good. I'm in this. If

Leah Sherry: it was dangerous, that was regulating for me.

I, I enjoyed the danger really. For sure. And then, you know, we were the first of the crew to start smoking weed and finding the older guys who had dropped out who were selling drugs and hanging out with them and mm-hmm. It went sort of in this type of way. And I know this is bad

Heather: to say, but that's really cool.

Like, because I feel like I'm a little bit reverting back into like my 15-year-old self where I was just like dying to be mature. Yeah. But I wasn't. Yeah. And that would've looked so cool to me, you know? Mm-hmm. It's not cool guys don't do that. Mm-hmm. But it was, [00:21:00] that's very cool. And did you feel mature.

Did I feel mature?

Leah Sherry: Uh, I don't know. I felt a part of something. Mm. Which is really important. I think that's what made it for me, was I was, I had something to belong to. I had something to believe in. Uh, I had something that really greased the wheels and spun the dials and made everything feel right, okay.

In the world. I didn't feel angular and awkward and outta place. I felt like I had come home. With what we, we called them in those days with we were druggies. Mm-hmm. We were druggies.

Heather: Yeah. I, uh, this I loved

Leah Sherry: my druggies, like,

Heather: yeah. Oh, it's like your chosen family.

Leah Sherry: It was a certain look. Right. And there was a pool hall in kitchen.

I lived in Waterloo, but we would of course go to Kitchener. If you're from Kitchen or Waterloo, you understand this very well, you would go to Kitchener to get your drugs.

Heather: Okay.

Leah Sherry: At the pool halls. And I know

Heather: so many people who go to Kitchener to get their drugs. Okay. Well then it's still going. It's

Leah Sherry: [00:22:00] still happening.

Yeah. It's still going strong 40 years later. I love that. I love that. Oh man. It's a whole, it's a,

Heather: it's a whole industry.

Leah Sherry: There'd be dragons there, as we used to say. What's, yeah. Dragons. Dragons just like, it's, it's, it's gnarly and Kitchener. Oh, okay. It's, it's the shadow. It's the shadow of southwestern Ontario.

Come these

Heather: Kitchener kids.

Leah Sherry: Yeah. So we would go to Kitchener and there was a certain thing to the Kitchener folk that appealed to me. They were, they were a little more feral than I was. They were maybe, you know, group home, uh, foster home kids. They had not been under the care in Yeah. The way that I was, I was just slightly more cared for than they were, perhaps.

Yeah, totally. Um, anyways, and I really, I really liked that you did. A lot of them had been to jail, and so some of my high school friends were like, Leah, this is, this might be a bit much. And I said, off you go. These are my people. Interesting. So I left high school. They [00:23:00] stayed in high school. I went.

Kitchener side. They stayed Waterloo side and

Heather: Okay, you broke on, but this is the attic

Leah Sherry: story, right? Like it gets a little more serious. Yeah. As we go. And the next thing you know, one thing led to another and I found myself in a cocaine crowd, uh, addicted to cocaine. Mm-hmm. Um,

Heather: are we still in high school?

Leah Sherry: I'm 18. Okay. So I had dropped out long ago.

Heather: Oh, you dropped outta high school? Yeah. Oh, you did? Yeah. What age? 16. Okay. A high school dropout, everybody. Mm-hmm. And look at you now. Look at me now. God. You're one of my favorite people. Oh, Heather, that's very true. I adore you too. Oh my God. Thank you for saying that.

On my podcast And in your house. And in my home. But, but back at the park on your coach, you Yeah, back at

Leah Sherry: the

Heather: park. You disgusted me. You disgusted me.

Leah Sherry: Oh, wow. Okay. So yeah. So, so the first section of this journey, uh, in addiction mm-hmm. Went south very quickly. I was addicted to cocaine. I was [00:24:00] stealing from my mother, um, coming to me in tears.

You've stolen the bill money. Do you want the lights shut off? I don't know what I'm gonna do. Um, I took to the streets, uh, I was up on, um, charges, pretty serious charges. Armed robbery. Okay. Leah, which I, which I did not, by the way, commit this crime. I simply was driving the car.

Heather: Oh, she's the getaway.

Leah Sherry: Mm-hmm.

Honestly,

Heather: I kind of, that's what I would wanna be. Mm-hmm. The getaway.

Leah Sherry: Yeah. I'm not an armed robbery,

Heather: but you did see me slink through here. So maybe I should be the one going in. If

Leah Sherry: I was ever going to commit an armed robbery, I feel like I would need your fairy like ways to navigate difficult terrain.

Heather: I didn't know until right now, but that is the compliment and the validation I've been looking for my entire life.

If you, someone I think is so fucking cool, we're gonna commit a robbery, you would ask me to join. Oh my God. That's the night. That's,

Leah Sherry: are you kidding? [00:25:00]

Heather: Honestly, I don't have to do this anymore. This is all I've ever wanted. Well, first

Leah Sherry: of all, just take a look at us. Who would see us coming? Nobody.

Heather: Well, it's like a show.

Good girls.

Leah Sherry: Exactly. I'm like a frumpy mom. You know, over the hill you are like a.

Heather: You are not a frumpy mom.

Leah Sherry: Well, I'm, I'm, I'm, but maybe

Heather: that's your superpower. You like, think and you looks like I can pull it off. Oh, no one will. I can pull it

Leah Sherry: off. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I'm unassuming in that way and bing

Heather: bang, boom.

Leah Sherry: Yeah. So we could commit an armed robbery for sure, but in, in actual fact, I didn't. Okay. Okay. But I was arrested for this. What did you rob?

Heather: What did they rob?

Leah Sherry: They actually robbed, um, a drug dealer. And his wife was there. He was pistol whipped by my friends, by my associates. I don't think

Heather: they

Leah Sherry: were

Heather: friends.

Well, at the time they were friends. And you loved them. Were they men?

Leah Sherry: Yeah, of course men of course.

Heather: Well, that's the first problem. Mm-hmm.

Leah Sherry: Yeah. Mm-hmm. So they pistol whipped a drug dealer, took his money, took his stash. Like in his house? Yeah, in his house. And his wife [00:26:00] had just immigrated. Oh no. Saw this go down.

And she called the police, which isn't what you do right In the crime underworld. No, but I think she just did this. Um,

Heather: did, maybe she didn't. Do you think she knew everything?

Leah Sherry: Maybe she didn't know. She didn't know. I mean this, this happened right in front of her and she, shit, she called the police and the police found us at a motel.

They surrounded our room guns drawn and had us come out on all fours.

Heather: Oh God. That's embarrassing.

Leah Sherry: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Heather: Okay. What were you doing in the motel at this time?

Leah Sherry: Getting high.

Heather: Okay. So did you think you'd gotten away with it

Leah Sherry: or it doesn't matter? Yeah, I think I was just so out of it. Lots of this type of thing would happen in the periphery all the time.

Like people would come busting in with stacks of cash and maybe some bloody kind of knuckles and there would be lots of like intense energy around it. And then there would be drugs and I would be using, and it would just be how the night [00:27:00] unfolds. So this was this, I remember, you know, I mean this is pretty grim.

I had just had.

I'm so excited. Oh my God, Heather, I had just had, uh, an abortion. I knew you were gonna fucking say that. You was gonna say that. Yeah. Oh, I knew it. Okay. Mm-hmm. And that's a whole other story. But I had, I was recovering from an abortion and because I was out on a bender, I didn't have all the things you need to keep yourself contained and hygienic when you are recovering from Oh, there's a lot of aftercare.

There's a lot of aftercare. Okay. Essentially you should, you should have a bag of diapers with you. Okay.

Heather: Which

Leah Sherry: I didn't, you know, I was on a bender. So yeah, that's usually a one pair of underwear, four day kind of situation.

Heather: I'm really glad you said that actually, because the hygiene portion of being an addict is like pretty shameful.

It is when it's happening. It is. Yeah.

Leah Sherry: Yep. I escaped, um, a house raid by undercover police. [00:28:00] You are such a criminal in a miscarriage that I had. B. Down to my knees. Holy fuck. And I remember jumping a fence and thinking they can see the blood. Holy as I'm jumping the fence. Shit. Yeah.

Heather: Did you know you were pregnant?

Yeah.

Leah Sherry: I didn't know I was pregnant, but I knew something had happened because now this is, this is a, this is rock bottom. Mm-hmm. Okaym in a drug house that's being surveilled by undercover police using

Heather: mm-hmm.

Leah Sherry: Miscarried into my jeans. I'll handle that later. Yeah. 'cause there's drugs on hand and I need to finish the drugs.

Heather: Yes.

Leah Sherry: Right. This is what we do. Right. This is what we do. This is what we do. The drug, the police come in and I'm out the back and over a fence realizing, wow. So I had one of these, in those days it was, it was in vogue to wear really long tunic type sweatshirts. Mm-hmm. So I had a long sweatshirt. [00:29:00] And I pulled it down.

Yeah. And managed my way home.

Heather: Wow.

Leah Sherry: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay. So, so, so, so, so that happened. Now I find myself on my hands and knees. Yeah.

Heather: And which, which was first,

Leah Sherry: the miscarriage was first. Okay. Yeah. Okay. This, this armed robbery charge and abortion into the pants. 'cause I ended up in a jail cell and because of who I was hanging out with, they were known criminals and they were sort of treating me like I was disgusting.

And I kind of felt like I obviously was, um, they weren't willing to gimme a change of clothes. So I was in, I was in pretty rough shape. Jail. Why do they do that? They want you small and humiliated. They do. They, they need to in every way. Be bigger than you because they're terrified. I remember coming out of that hotel room and looking at the police surrounding us.

They look more afraid. They looked more afraid than we were. [00:30:00]

Heather: Okay. And at this moment, do you think, like rightly so, they should have been more afraid because they don't know what you have. Well, we're certainly,

Leah Sherry: well, exactly.

Heather: Mm-hmm.

Leah Sherry: And there was a gun, but we're certainly not coming out with guns drawn.

Yeah. You know, there's way better ways to deal with that situation as a criminal than to start shooting at armed cops.

Heather: Yeah. And I'm assuming it's not any of your first rodeos with cops?

Leah Sherry: No. You know, like, okay, so this is it. We're gonna go to jail. We're probably gonna stay the night. I'm certainly only staying the night.

They're, they might, they might not get bail. Why

Heather: are you only staying the night?

Leah Sherry: Oh, because I'm a 19-year-old white girl. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And they were not white.

Heather: Yeah.

Leah Sherry: Uh, one of them was not white.

Heather: Okay.

Leah Sherry: One of them was black, one of them was white, but he was so known to police.

Heather: Okay. So even in, even in, um, like.

Abortion pants and abortion

Leah Sherry: pants on my knees. Yes. I was high as fuck. High as fuck. Like there's

Heather: still like some privilege in that.

Leah Sherry: Are you kidding? Always. Wow. Always. Yeah. Because of my white skin. [00:31:00]

Heather: Chelsea Handler talks about that. 'cause Chelsea handler was often in cars with mm-hmm. Her exes or boyfriends and they would often be black and then get pulled over and they would just send her home.

Even though she was high with time, speed or whatever she had every time.

Leah Sherry: The only reason that I sit here today

Heather: uhhuh

Leah Sherry: in the life that I have, is because I was felt sorry for as a poor white girl hanging out with Wow. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I got off

Heather: the system

Leah Sherry: that charge for this exact reason. Mm-hmm. Um, oh,

Heather: they didn't charge you?

Leah Sherry: They dropped the charges.

Heather: Wow. Did they just basically say like, go home?

Leah Sherry: They said go to rehab.

Heather: But not forced.

Leah Sherry: Forced.

Heather: Oh, forced. Mm-hmm. Okay. So what does forced rehab look like? Um,

Leah Sherry: it's kind of like a, it's a bit foggy to me, but at the time, uh, I had been, you know, under some [00:32:00] medical care because I had gone into the hospital for a high fever for untreated STIs.

Okay. And, you know, the abortion and all kinds of things were happening mm-hmm. In the nether regions. So I had a doctor say to me, scary. Um, you're on your last leg if you don't clean up. Which I think they say a lot, but they don't know. I've heard that They don't know how hardy we are as addicts.

Heather: Bitch, I will take drugs before I die.

Yeah. Like I, yeah. No, no, no, no, no. That's not gonna take me down. Yeah. But I guess that's what they have to say. So then

Leah Sherry: when the judge is saying to me, this is all happening around the same time when the judge is saying to me. You could end up in jail or you could go to rehab. I'm going to assign you, I'm going to fast track you into Homewood.

Heather: Mm-hmm. So I'm gonna

Leah Sherry: get you a bed at Homewood and this is what you're gonna do. I just sort of followed along. Like I sort of felt like, I don't remember it being something that was a stipulation.

Heather: Okay. But

Leah Sherry: I [00:33:00] remember being, it being something that I kind of needed to do because I was very worried about going back to the streets after being arrested.

Mm-hmm. And getting off while the people I was arrested with were not getting off, they were being charged and they were looking at five years. Okay. That's dicey territory.

Heather: Can you explain why?

Leah Sherry: Mm. Because I would be accused of being a rat. Okay. I would be accused of. Pointing my finger, explaining what happened to the police and cutting a deal.

Heather: But when in reality they just let you off. 'cause you were white.

Leah Sherry: Yeah.

Heather: And young. Okay.

Leah Sherry: Yeah. Yeah.

Heather: So that's the territory we're in. Like, we're in gang shit.

Leah Sherry: I don't even know it. It's crime life. So there's crime life. It's just the code, the the crime life code.

Heather: Wow. I

Leah Sherry: wanna go back a little bit. 'cause back even further.

We're not even into like how I completely turned my life around. No. I, and then started having wine with dinner and became like a, like a,

Heather: we'll get there. Okay. I wanna [00:34:00] go back a little bit to like all the STIs mm-hmm. And all these things, because I think there's like,

Leah Sherry: well when you're having sex for drugs,

Heather: right.

And I think a big portion of it too, correct me if I'm wrong if I'm wrong, but like my health is kind of like on the back burner. Absolutely. When I'm addicted to stuff.

Leah Sherry: Oh my God,

Heather: right?

Leah Sherry: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And it's

Heather: like any, for me, if any problem that would come up mm-hmm. A, I'm never gonna stop drinking, so I'm gonna drink through it, through it, and then that way I don't really care.

Mm-hmm. You know? Mm-hmm. Like having UTIs and being like, oh, okay, I'll go. Even though it's the worst pain ever, I'm like, I'm gonna drink this bottle of wine and then I'll go to the clinic.

Leah Sherry: But like even having a doctor say to you, you're probably gonna die. And that not really being a thing that you believe is gonna happen or that's something normal people

Heather: say.

Do you think it's because it's like, it just seems so far in the future that like, if something is gonna happen to me, it's not now. Or like, do we just not give a fuck because nothing else matters except our [00:35:00] substances? 'cause it wasn't even like a thing like, oh Heather, you're gonna die. I wasn't even like, oh my God, I'm horrible.

I'm so sad. It was like, I neither, okay, neither.

Leah Sherry: It's like a wire is snipped.

Heather: It's a little bit of a lobotomy. Yeah. Like I didn't

Leah Sherry: have any reverence

Heather: for

Leah Sherry: my life.

Heather: Mind you, every now and then I would have these like middle of the night, me that like weird sober time. Me too. Where you wake up and you're like, oh, I'm gonna die.

What am I doing? Yeah. I gotta stop.

Leah Sherry: I remember one time my hands were shaking so bad I couldn't use. And, uh, I looked into the mirror into my eyes to try and center myself so I could use, and I saw something in my eyes. Like I saw myself, I saw I was in a drug house. It was horrible. Scene. I'm in this bathroom and I'm looking into my eyes and I can see my eyes and I, I said, oh, you're in there, you are in there somewhere.

Little bit. I'm, I'm, I'm coming for you. Hang tight. I'll be back. [00:36:00]

Heather: Huh?

Leah Sherry: Mm-hmm. I remember that.

Heather: Yeah, I remember that. Damn, that's like such clarity. That just made me cry a little bit. That's like when I, I do remember these moments, like, it's like restaurants or bars, or. Some guy's house. Yeah. Like looking in the mirror and it's that thing of like, I am so fucked up.

Look at me. Yeah. Whoa. Is that

Leah Sherry: me? Like, it's like a, I know.

Heather: And you kind of almost see yourself as like objective. Oh,

Leah Sherry: exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

Heather: And you're like this poor little girl. Like, what is go, okay, hang on babe. We're coming. Like, it's

Leah Sherry: the death that addiction. Addiction, it's the death that addiction is, is dragging you towards.

Yeah. It's like you arrive there almost and you float above yourself and you see your living, your living being still living. It's like, I, I describe addiction as, and being an active addiction is like being alive and dead at the same time.

Heather: Wow. Yeah.

Leah Sherry: So it's like that dead part of you sees the [00:37:00] living part of you.

And there's that split, there's that, yeah. Severe conflict between the two.

Heather: And maybe that's why when a doctor or somebody says, you're gonna die, you're like, well, I'm kind of already there. Hundred percent. You don't know what living is me. There's nothing worse for me. You could

Leah Sherry: do for me. Yeah.

Heather: To me, yes.

This, what I'm doing now is way worse than any death. Mm-hmm. It's just true. Mm-hmm. Like, I just, I feel horrible every day and I'm mm-hmm. I know I'm dragging myself towards this death. And that's, I don't want you to even talk about it because it's like, I'm so ashamed of that whole thing. I know what's going on.

Mm-hmm. Oh yeah. Shame. The shame, the shame. The shame. The fucking shame. There's shame. And then, you know, what is a really good cure for shame is drinking. Exactly. Like, like it's a perfect solution. 100%. I think about that all the time when I'm just like, you know, what a cycle. Yeah. I'm like, you know what could just absolutely erase this bad day.

Leah Sherry: Mm-hmm.

Heather: Drinking.

Leah Sherry: I hate myself for drinking. You know what would help with that is [00:38:00] drinking.

Heather: Totally. That's the epitome of

Leah Sherry: addiction.

Heather: Oh my God. And another thing, a big thing for me, I, I say this a lot, that like, I wouldn't have gone to rehab when I did if drinking alcohol was making me skinny. Mm. Because I have friends that would drink vodka and not eat anything.

Leah Sherry: This is such a fabulous truth.

Heather: Yeah. Mm-hmm. If it was making me skinny

Leah Sherry: mm-hmm.

Heather: I would've gone, I would've gotten so much sicker, like it would've been I know, I know. I think at that point then I would've had to have a big intervention or a hospital visit that sent me right in because yeah. What I love, nothing more in life.

Nothing. I don't love anything more than alcohol than being skinny. Mm. Mm-hmm. That's not really how I feel now, but that's how I was feeling. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so if I'm not skinny, I'm upset, I'm gonna drink. The drinking is so much sugar, it's making me. Eat pizza and get fat. This is, and that's upsetting.

So I'm gonna drink

Leah Sherry: like the chorus to a song. Yeah. That would be a smash hit, [00:39:00] because it's such a relatable tune. Well, and there's many women, nothing.

Heather: You can fucking do nothing.

Leah Sherry: I'm like,

Heather: this is the life. I mean, love.

Leah Sherry: Do you interrupt that? Right. Like that's, how do you whack the needle off that record,

Heather: man?

I don't know. But we've done it. We've done it. So we can

Leah Sherry: say things that like, I don't know. It's a series of events that, yeah. Cobblestone and domino into finding ourselves in a circumstance where we're not using one day and then we're not using the next day. I would certainly say, and I think you'll agree, rehab grabs you by the scruff of the neck and yanks you out.

Right? Yeah. Like, I mean, inpatient rehab. Yeah. Like, like pulling me out in my life,

Heather: which I think for me, I personally, I believe that inpatient rehab is like. The only rehab you should be going to.

Leah Sherry: I agree.

Heather: Obviously there's like an expense there and I get it, but like, yes, of course. Of

Leah Sherry: course.

Heather: Outpatient,

Leah Sherry: well, my day OHIP covered 30 days, so I got a, I got 30 days where Homewood Homewood was it.

Nice. It was a hospital. It's like a hospital. It's a hospital. I mean it wasn't not nice. Okay. [00:40:00] It was, it was hospital standards.

Heather: Have you been to CMH?

Leah Sherry: We had a smoking room.

Heather: I love that. I know so

Leah Sherry: much.

Heather: Smoking in rehab. I know

Leah Sherry: so much. Smoking. Um, CMH? No. No, I haven't been to CMHI

Heather: haven't. Have you been in there at all?

Yes. Okay. I haven't been in Is it lovely?

Leah Sherry: Yeah. I mean, I haven't been in there like as a using person. Right. Um, I refer clients there for assessments, so. Okay. I've met with some of the team there in that regard.

Heather: Team

Leah Sherry: psychiatrists.

Heather: Okay. And are they Mh Oh, so it's not just addiction, it's like psych and stuff?

Leah Sherry: Mm-hmm. Mental health. Okay. They assess, good to know. They assess, uh, personality disorder. They assess. Uh, depression, anxiety. PTSD.

Heather: Oh, I'm supposed to be meeting with the head, head of philanthropy at CMH. Oh, I'm gonna talk about some stuff. 'cause Good, good, good, good. I'm very, um, interested in like helping of course, wherever I can.

Mm-hmm. Obviously as addicts, that's what we do. Yes. Programs and dollars. The, um, [00:41:00] out pay aftercare is like really important to me. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Because even when I went to rehab, it was like $5,000 for like, I don't know, or like $3,000 for like five sessions after the after rehab. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no.

I'm going out into the world. Like I need more help for cheaper.

Leah Sherry: Yeah. And, and in my day it was 12 steps, so I was a card carrying 12 step NA member.

Heather: Mm-hmm. That was a large, the biggest swallow I ever did. That was disgusting.

Leah Sherry: A little burp. It can't be any more disgusting than abortion pants and miscarriage.

Heather: That is exactly right. Sex jumping. That's exactly right. Everyone, if you're ever like, God, was that gross what I did? It's like Leah had an abortion in her pants. Oh my God. No. It's so funny because shame, I always feel like the, the grossest thing that us as addicts do is like shitting ourselves or like pissing ourselves.

Yeah. Which is what we all do. Yeah. Yeah. But that's a new level. That's another level. That's a really, I never had, I've never had an abortion, so, [00:42:00] okay. But you know, I had an IUD in there my whole life. Mm-hmm. And I didn't have sex till I was 21. So that would've been a

Leah Sherry: wise thing for me to do. It would've been wise had I known I'd be having sex for drugs.

Heather: Except I just saw a girl on TikTok who had her IUD taken out 'cause she was having pain.

Leah Sherry: Mm.

Heather: And there was a hair

Leah Sherry: fall, a hair ball from, she had long hair. It got in the crack for us and then went up in there.

Heather: Multiple times and she was like, yeah, like if there's hair in your bed and you're having sex, it could like, there's liquids and fluids and it could just jam up.

And I was like, see, overwhelmed. See,

Leah Sherry: I'm more upset by, I'm upset the hair in bed, the random things that can happen to the body than the things I, than the brick walls I willingly drive into. Oh God. That's the other thing. Then of course I have STIs.

Heather: Oh yeah. I'm like, first of all, who doesn't? I always say this, if you're like part of the age demographic between like at this point, what is it?

Like 25 and 50, right? If you don't have H hpv. Mm. Get outside. Mm mm [00:43:00] It's like embarrassing at this point not to have HPV. We all have it. What are you living off the grid? Are you never having sex? I got HPV the first time I had sex with a man. Oh my gosh. Yeah. It really fucked me up, but it's okay now.

Leah Sherry: Can I just say something?

Of course. And I feel this way for you too.

Heather: Okay.

Leah Sherry: Our lives as addicts and our lives as sober people. Uhhuh, I would say is like likely the least interesting thing about us. I'm just gonna say that this is what I believe strongly and feel okay.

Heather: Okay. I believe that about you. I don't yet believe that about me.

I want you to get there because I think so much of my identity right now is like I'm sober and that's like a safety for me.

Leah Sherry: I think that's a part of, okay.

Heather: Mm-hmm.

Leah Sherry: We won't rock that boat. Of course. I think that might be a part of the situation where you are in the this work. So in that regard, I can understand that this aspect [00:44:00] of your life experience is interesting.

Yeah. So it's certainly interesting lived experience. I, I wouldn't undermine or dismiss that in any way. And I would say, obviously who I am today is. Informed by all of what we're talking about, as would you say the same thing for yourself? Mm-hmm. So this is your work. What's happening for you? Are you okay?

Heather: Me? Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, good. Oh yeah. Sorry. No, I'm thinking, I'm just thinking of like, so if someone asked you about yourself Yeah. You wouldn't necessarily say like, oh, I'm sober. No. Or I was an addict? No. Okay. 'cause I would, okay. Like that's where I am. If someone's like, tell me about yourself, I'd be like, oh my God.

Well, I'm sober. I was a fucking maniac and now I'm here. It doesn't

Leah Sherry: occur to me. It doesn't cross my mind. And it's part of my thing not thinking about alcohol. Like it's, it's, which maybe is a complacency, as they would say in 12 step. You gotta keep your addiction green and fresh and remember where you come from and keep some vigilance around how fragile this thing is.

Right. I don't feel that it's not fragile. I [00:45:00] acknowledge the fragility every day when I don't use, yeah. When I'm abstinent, when I don't take a sip of wine with dinner. Mm-hmm. Like I know this is fragile. I know this is. A slippery slope.

Heather: Oh yeah. And it's like right there too. And it's right there. Yeah.

Leah Sherry: But I, I'm very confident in my respect for the power that alcohol has.

Mm-hmm. I'm very confident in my respect for abstinence as the thing that works for me.

Heather: Yeah. I feel like really

Leah Sherry: it's the, it's the only thing that works for me and it's a decision I've already made.

Heather: I think that's a big thing when people get sober. Mm-hmm. And then a year goes by, or two years goes by and they're like.

Well, my life is better Uhhuh. I could have a drink with dinner.

Leah Sherry: Mm-hmm. That's what I did. I, after 15 years sober,

Heather: that's what I did. Okay. We'll get into that right next because I'm, I know and like this respect for al the power of alcohol mm-hmm. I know that I can't handle it. Yeah. I just know that Yeah.

It's, it's not, it's regardless of my, where negotiable mental health is, let's say I'm super happy. I'm, I'm on vacation. [00:46:00] I'm in the south of France. I'm doing all these things. I have a glass of wine. I'm fucked forever. Like I know that, oh, you know, it doesn't matter how happy I am. I'm like, great. I'll drink 'cause I'm happy.

Mm-hmm. You know? Mm-hmm. So, um, so you get sober. Do you get sober after this? All in all fours. Abortion pants, rehab? Absolutely. Okay. I'm all in. And you're 19. Yep. That's really young.

Leah Sherry: Yes.

Heather: It's really young. When you're going into rehab or you're at rehab, do you know like, I'm, this is, this, is it I'm, that

Leah Sherry: wouldn't be the case now and it's, young people are been getting clean for a very long time.

Mm-hmm. But in 1992, I was the youngest person in rehab and the youngest person in Waterloo Na.

Heather: Okay. Did you kind of like that?

Leah Sherry: I enjoyed the attention.

Heather: Yeah. I would love that.

Leah Sherry: Mm-hmm. I love it. I enjoyed the attention. I was surrounded by people. I was, I was a magical being.

Heather: Yeah. So [00:47:00] was I. And I see that, and I think that's why I like you so much.

I know. And we were just having this conversation that I do

Leah Sherry: see so much of that in our overlap. Yeah,

Heather: I do too. And I, we were just having this conversation this morning that you're kind of like, you like to be a little more isolated. Yeah. But we don't let you do that at the park because everyone is so drawn to you.

Mm-hmm. So it's just like you come out the park with your little wiener dog and we're like, Leah, what you wanna talk about today? And then, and then we

Leah Sherry: get into it and then I come alive. Yeah. But I, I'll tell you, I remember yesterday you asked me about coming to the podcast or am I nervous?

Heather: Mm-hmm.

Leah Sherry: And I was thinking, you know, I don't feel nervous about coming to talk to you being on a podcast.

What creates anxiety for me is anything in my calendar that involves social interaction. Oh my god.

Heather: Well, yeah. Like this is my event for the day. Oh, are you kidding? Yeah.

Leah Sherry: Yeah. This is probably gonna. Take me through the week.

Heather: Oh yeah, Zoe, we record on Fridays. Mm-hmm. Friday mornings. And Zoe will be like, do you wanna go to dinner on Thursday with Maddie?

Mm-hmm. And I'm like, it's [00:48:00] like so much talking. I'm like, we're gonna talk, then we're gonna dinner the next day. And then, then you wanna like hang out after the podcast. Holy shit. God, my God. Like it's, I'm exhausted already. Mm-hmm. You know, it's also a muscle. I think it's muscle. Like socialization is a full fucking muscle.

It's the bandwidth.

Leah Sherry: But this is what I love about the dog park is Yeah. I can kind of come in as is Any mood. Yeah. Any look, any story that I need to get off my chest and the dog park takes it on. Yeah. Absorbs. Yeah. Right. We've got a good, the dog park provides whatever the support is you need that day.

You get it. And it, that is true. And, and even if you're not up for the theatrics and you're not up for the energy mm-hmm. You'll know pretty quickly you'll shut down, you'll find your own zone. Mm-hmm. You'll get cranky. And no one, no one's like. It's all allowed.

Heather: Yeah. It really is. It's a

Leah Sherry: real as is environment.

Heather: And I don't think it's super, I think it's actually pretty rare to have

Leah Sherry: what we have. It [00:49:00] is. And even yesterday, somebody we see all the time with his dog completely. I know. Sort of showed up. Were you there? Yeah. Yeah. And he was like, do you guys meet every day? Like, do you guys do this every day? I know.

And I was like, yeah, but the like, don't make it a thing. Like the best part of what we do. Yeah. I'm calling it out, is that there's no, no, we're not on a group text. There's no texting. We don't arrange things.

Heather: Mm-hmm.

Leah Sherry: We just,

Heather: it's like kismet, summon each

Leah Sherry: other.

Heather: I know. Fucking twice a day. Truly. Every day.

Every day we're out there and we're like, oh my God, you again. It's like, yeah, we've been doing this for three years. Yes. It's pretty, it's the best. It's pretty fucking stretch. And also that was kind of weird because I'm like, it's special. Yeah. Honey, you're out here too with us almost every day. I know. I

Leah Sherry: was like, you've seen this, like what's, what are you noticing today that you haven't noticed before?

Yeah, we

Heather: do this every day, but. It's not a thing. I think he's going through a breakup, so I think maybe he's just a little all over the place.

Leah Sherry: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think he wants to join, but he doesn't realize he's already a part of

Heather: Oh, he's already a part of the past. He's already a character in the past.

The invisible group chat. Yes. He's already there. Yes, he's [00:50:00] already there. I think about him as he called it. Our,

Leah Sherry: our group. Think Once and I thought that was smart.

Heather: It is our group thing. A

Leah Sherry: group

Heather: thing, and I find it very dangerous. However, at the dog park, I'm okay with it. 'cause usually the ideas are mine.

Yeah. You have great ideas.

Leah Sherry: You do. You do. And that's the, that's the thing of being surrounded, right? Yeah. Like there is a, a, a switch that gets flipped for us. Mm-hmm. When we are surrounded, it's, it's Greg, it's our Greg Garity or gregarious way. Yeah. It's our, it's our extroversion that also serves to keep people at arms length.

I will say. Yes. Yes. It's not intimate. It, it

Heather: can Fein intimacy. Yes. I'm doing a thing. I'm doing a thing every time and I'm working on this with my therapist right now. Like I'm doing a thing where I'm like, I, I'm on and I don't even know when I'm turning on, I'm just on. Mm-hmm. Even before I get to the dog park and I'm like, I'm vibrating.

I'm ready. I got, all my friends are here. I got stuff to, to say, ready go.

Leah Sherry: Yep,

Heather: yep, yep. And I don't know why. It's like I'm trying to put on a thing, I'm trying to like [00:51:00] present a certain way. Mm. And it always feels crazy. And sometimes I leave the park and I'm like, why were you such a fucking psycho? Like, why can't you just be chill and sit down Like our, like our lesbian friends, they just sit.

Mm-hmm.

Leah Sherry: But oh, I can turn it on. I get pretty, pretty wound up.

Heather: Yeah. But I think I'm there and I'm turned on. So no one else has the opportunity to be turned on. 'cause I'm the one that's there. Do you know what I mean? Mm. Everyone turns off when I come through.

Leah Sherry: Yeah. I, I, I, well, this is what I would say, and this is harder to describe, so, you know, bear with me if this doesn't make sense, but this is what I say is the most interesting thing about us, the things that we almost know, sort of the things that are behind the things we know for sure.

Right. And, you know, I, I see it for you and I see it For me, I see it for everyone because that's my work as a therapist is Right. [00:52:00] What we're trying to do in therapy ultimately is reconcile conflicting parts of self. Mm-hmm. So what people will come to therapy to do is fix themselves,

Heather: right.

Leah Sherry: To handle these types of things.

Like, I'm working on this in therapy, this thing, this thing of turning on

Heather: mm-hmm.

Leah Sherry: Doing my bit. What if it was okay that as you are, is just. Perfect and fine the way it is and that that doesn't need to necessarily change. You could move the needle on it, but it wouldn't be something you're doing from the outside in.

It'd be something that would shift as you internally no longer need to get needs met in this way.

Heather: Okay. Okay. So in that sense I So don't worry. Wait it out. You wait it out girl. You are. How's this? How's this for like on my podcasting, something nice? That would be what to do.

Leah Sherry: Well how's this for, you know, a therapist kind of like undermining her own source of [00:53:00] income?

Heather: Uhhuh?

Leah Sherry: No, because I think we do need support and therapy to actually arrive here. What if you were fine as is exactly the way you are and there is nothing to fix and that you are not actually in any way broken. Just the fact that you made it out of the womb

Heather: mm-hmm.

Leah Sherry: Is enough. You are a viable. Human being with brilliance just the way you are.

I think

Heather: that would feel really nice to feel that way. Damn right. It does. Do you feel

Leah Sherry: that way? Well, yeah. Nice. Oh my God. Okay. I mean, of course I have my triggers. I get a little this and that. I mean, my patterns are still there. My triggers are still there. I am, I am full of all the things that I, I created.

Heather: Yeah. All yours along the way

Leah Sherry: to survive this thing of humanity and this [00:54:00] absolutely broken world. Yeah. Not shit storm that we're through. I, I'm not a broken person in it.

Heather: Wow.

Leah Sherry: Uh, neither are you.

Heather: Yeah. Right. YI don't know. Yeah. I, I, I like see, I see that, that makes sense. I just don't, it doesn't feel like that in my body.

Leah Sherry: Yeah. Yet it's not an entry point for therapy. Yeah. Like, I do not speak like this necessarily to clients because it's, yeah. You're like, just feel good

Heather: about yourself. It's fine. It's just saying, I don't

Leah Sherry: see a problem here. I don't know what you're talking about. This

Heather: is all in your head. Just forget about is all in your head.

Yeah.

Leah Sherry: I have a magic wand right here.

Heather: I'm like, oh my God, I'm perfect, gorgeous, and I've got no problems.

Leah Sherry: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. No, they're real problems and yeah, it's real. Uh, you know, the parts of self that war inside are the parts that, um, are desperate to, there's a part that, and many parts that. S you know, work to protect us, right?

[00:55:00] Mm-hmm. So let's say you're working on this thing in therapy, this thing where you have the bit and what, what, what meaning have you made of this? Like, why is this a problem for you?

Heather: Um, because I think, I think it's offputting.

Leah Sherry: Offputting.

Heather: Yeah. And sometimes I black out, like sometimes it really, I think, started to come up because of, it was happening on dates where I was just, I was doing a thing

Leah Sherry: key.

Key point.

Heather: Yeah. And then it was like, where else do you see this come up? And I was like, oh, always. And like at the dog park. Mm-hmm. That's easier because I'm there every day so I can like, work on that. Dating was like every now and then, and I'm like, I go on dates and then immediately leave my body. Yeah.

And then this person is just left to just Yeah. Figure out what they need from me. And then it's chaos. And then I'm like very animated. I'm over the top. I'm like intently listening. It's a lot. Yeah. And I know I'm doing it, but I don't know when it started. During the date, and I don't know how to get the fuck out of it.

Mm-hmm. So I'm gonna go home and feel [00:56:00] real bad about this, and then he's gonna text me tomorrow and be like, that was fun. I'm not interested. Mm-hmm. And I'm like, well, of course not. I was the energizer bunny, like a little crazy person. Like, you know. So I think that's where then it feels like, oh, I'm so stunted.

I've been drinking for 10 years. Mm. I like, you know, didn't kiss a boy till I was 18. I'm so behind in everything. And it just feels like that, that's when the whole world crumbles.

Leah Sherry: Okay.

Heather: You know?

Leah Sherry: Okay. So that's where we would redirect. Right. Is that point where you see this mm-hmm. As something that is wrong with you because you're stunted and you didn't kiss a boy.

Right. What if this was actually what's exactly right with you that what you're doing

Heather: mm-hmm.

Leah Sherry: Is very important.

Heather: Yeah.

Leah Sherry: In leaving yourself and [00:57:00] performing,

Heather: oh,

Leah Sherry: this is very important for what? Well, that's something to get to know.

Heather: Yeah. Yeah. 'cause if

Leah Sherry: you do this to a part of yourself, if you like, uh,

Heather: yeah.

Leah Sherry: Hive a part of yourself, off a part of yourself that is prevalent and believes itself to be very important and functional.

Heather: Yeah.

Leah Sherry: I think it does.

Heather: Of course it does. That version of me is like, hi, I'm here. Like, well,

Leah Sherry: if you didn't like it Yeah. And wanted it gone, it'd be gone. Huh. So it is still here for a very good reason. Right. Why? Let's turn towards it. We don't have to. Now I've, yeah, but let, we're you're gonna turn towards it in therapy.

Okay. And you're going to understand its purpose, its function. You are going to befriend this motherfucker,

Heather: okay.

Leah Sherry: And you are gonna watch her in action, and you are going to understand her ways. Mm-hmm.

Heather: And

Leah Sherry: then you are going to. Let her know she's no longer needed at some point. Right. But not yet. [00:58:00]

Heather: Yeah. Yeah.

I think it definitely, she gives me like a push and then I'm like, okay,

Leah Sherry: thank you. Well, it's a strategy of disconnection, right? Like yes, here's who, here's who you get to see. Yeah. This is what you get to know. Yeah. But intimacy, vulnerability is absolutely terrifying. It's actually life threatening for people like us.

Heather: Mm-hmm.

Leah Sherry: So you have a very powerful presence. Mm-hmm. It's a likable presence.

Heather: Thank you.

Leah Sherry: And it will be very difficult for you to find intimate connection and partnership as it is for me,

Heather: say, so you leave rehab, you're the youngest. Mm-hmm. Do you go into a sober living? How do you, what do you do after?

Leah Sherry: Yeah.

Well actually it's interesting. Um, I was thinking about whether or not to bring this up 'cause it's a whole other story. But last night I started watching Wayward. Okay. Do, have you seen it? The show about the cult? I have to be really honest

Heather: with you. I am. God, the un drunkies are, they know, I think I know this about you.

Yeah. I love May.

Leah Sherry: I think I know this about you

Heather: and I'm watching it. You [00:59:00] wanna

Leah Sherry: date them or something?

Heather: Yeah. For the rest of time. Yeah.

Leah Sherry: And I, it's hard not to like them. I mean,

Heather: I, right.

Leah Sherry: The way they go in for a kiss is ridiculous.

Heather: No, no. So here's the thing. I felt myself ridiculous getting so jealous. Yeah.

And like upset that Mae was kissing somebody else. And not even like, I know it's not real, but I'm like, did that

Leah Sherry: actor even know what they were gonna get to do?

Heather: Ah, I don't know.

Leah Sherry: To be them handled

Heather: by May them handled is so funny. It's so, the way they come in the kiss is, well, do you know, it's like the way that we all wanna be kissed and they can do it from like both sides and it's so good.

It's unbelievably natural to them. Like. I know, but when you watch them on a podcast, they are a little bit like, Ooh. And so I like that. I like that they're a little bit like mm-hmm. [01:00:00] Silly, but then can just lock in.

Leah Sherry: Yeah, lock in. Like this is what they're meant to do. I just got like hot in world. I know. Me too.

It's hot in here, but, and I did, for whatever reason, I didn't wear deodorant, but, so it's fine. I don't smell.

Heather: I'm going through something with my hormones. Yeah. Yeah. Right now there isn't a deodorant and I can find it like it smells good.

Leah Sherry: So I would like to know the backstory a little more. 'cause I know they wrote that or created that based on a friend who'd actually gone into a cult, and it's obviously cinematic and sensational, the whole story.

Sure. The place I was long-term sentenced to for treatment was a place called Stonehenge in Guelph. And it was very similar to, uh, tall Pines. Yeah.

Heather: In terms of,

Leah Sherry: uh, there was an ideology, there was a discourse. There were, was it God focused? No. No, no. Actually very much not. So, but the God was the ideology of this cult-like way of being.

Okay.

Heather: [01:01:00] And did you have to go there?

Leah Sherry: Um, I, uh, I did because I actually got, um, I forgot actually about this. I was in th Homewood for 30 days and I was, uh, I'll say kicked out.

Heather: What did you do? You had s sex?

Leah Sherry: Uh, I left. Oh, I left. I

Heather: You broke out of the clink?

Leah Sherry: I broke out of the clink and I relapsed. I had a one night bender, and then I showed up the next morning and they said, this environment is not structured enough for you.

You need a highly structured environment. You need

Heather: to be in a cult. Mm-hmm.

Leah Sherry: So they sent me to a cult.

Heather: Holy shit. Well, it's nice that they sent you somewhere. Was that covered?

Leah Sherry: Yes. Okay. Yeah, because I'm like, where no one's paying fees. Yeah. This was the, this was the tail end of the eighties. Okay. So money was in abundance

Heather: in Toronto.

Just like as a picture in Toronto. Mm-hmm. Waterloo.

Leah Sherry: Guelph. Mm-hmm.

Heather: What was the drug situation on the streets like on Queen? Like our interesting question. Yeah. 'cause

Leah Sherry: this [01:02:00] was when we had learned to cook cocaine into freebase. So this was

Heather: Prec crack Wait, freebase thing that is crack? No.

Leah Sherry: Uh, so I think crack, I don't know.

But it is a simulation of free base.

Heather: Okay. Okay. Crack hills. Just say no.

Leah Sherry: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So you started, so that was rampant when I started.

Heather: So you started cooking your coke?

Leah Sherry: Yeah. Yeah.

Heather: Into freebasing?

Leah Sherry: Yeah. Like really soft rocks. It wasn't like crack. I remember when I saw crack for the first time. It was yellow and ish and hard.

Mm-hmm. Like, like coffee teeth.

Heather: Yeah. Looked

Leah Sherry: like coffee stain teeth. Let's smoke it. And it stunk. I remember the smell was like, uh, like somebody had burned plastic.

Heather: Mm-hmm.

Leah Sherry: And so I think I did try it once because maybe I didn't know. I don't [01:03:00] know. And Wow, wow, wow. The high was horrible. And then you just wanna die when you're coming down.

You just wanna die. Yeah. And it's all you can do. Not to slice a throat to get some more to come out of that I wanna die feeling. Yeah. Freebase was, was, was like very soft and sweet. Free base was very sweet. And can you smoke it? You put it in a pipe. Okay. And you smoke it or you put it in a joint and you smoke it.

Nice. It's like crumbly and soft and you crumble it into some weed and you smoke it. Maybe I'm like romanticizing this, I don't know. But, um, it's like a

Heather: whole thing. It's it's a whole job. It was like a whole

Leah Sherry: job. Yeah. And there had to be someone there to do all that. 'cause I didn't know how to do all of that.

But anyways, so we were coming outta free base and into crack at, in that era. So, very quickly, I think within a year or two, I was not the youngest person anymore. Ah, in the rooms. Bummer. Because, because Crack had found its way to Kitchen or Waterloo.

Heather: Okay. [01:04:00] Mm-hmm. Where was it first? The city?

Leah Sherry: I mean, I don't wanna stereotype, but Toronto.

Heather: Oh, Toronto. Wait, why is that a stereotype?

Leah Sherry: Um, Jane Finch.

Heather: Oh, Jane Finch. I've met some wild people from Jane and Finch. Oh, you have? Yeah. Okay.

Leah Sherry: Some sober,

Heather: sober people. Okay, good. Great. Like who've come out of it. Yeah. I love it. Anytime I talk to anyone in Toronto that's like, knows, like Jane Finch always comes up.

Mm. I'm like, what were you all doing over there? What is going on over there? And I

Leah Sherry: think it's still like that, right? Mm. I have no idea. I have a, I don't even think about these things. My relationship with Jane Finch right now is,

Heather: did you spend a lot of time there?

Leah Sherry: No. Oh, okay. I

Heather: never went

Leah Sherry: there.

Heather: Oh, you didn't go there.

But the people who came to Kitchener Yeah. Were coming from Jane Finch. Well, I know someone who was born like in the house, in like in, in the house. In the, like in the house has always been, Jane Finch wasn't even born in a hospital hospice. That's just from Jane Finch as you can get. It's the most Jane Finch.

And then got [01:05:00] really into all the drugs. Of course you have to. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And it's amazing. It's so funny that there are little pockets of our city that are like rampaged by drugs, and that's just what goes on rampaged. It's wild. So wait, so you, I'm at Stonehenge, you're at Stone, you're at Stonehenge.

And I'm raking Rocks and Uhhuh. Okay, so you're at Stonehenge. This is sober living ish. Yes. Yeah. And you're

Leah Sherry: It's a therapeutic community is what it was called. Wait, you're

Heather: not doing drugs

Leah Sherry: there? No. Oh no. Oh no. Oh, you're raking rocks. You're actually raking rocks. It's like a, it's like a very rigid, strict routine.

Did you like it? No, it was awful. So were they mean to you Incredibly oppressive? They were mean to me. Um, I was targeted because I was young and I had long blonde hair. Um, pretty, yeah. There were other young women, a few other young women.

Heather: It was mostly

Leah Sherry: men.

Heather: Oh, it was all men. Okay. It was almost all men. I think that is like, usually they said like at my [01:06:00] rehab, that it's usually majority men, but when I was there it was like majority women, which, mm-hmm.

Kismet.

Leah Sherry: Yeah. I mean, I think we know, maybe, I have no idea, but I hope we know better now. Women with women, men with men, regardless of Oh, we should, but we don't. Oh, we don't. No. I had sex at rehab. That sounds really luxurious, I

Heather: guess.

Leah Sherry: Yeah. Highly unaffordable.

Heather: I don't think I've met anyone who's gone to rehab and hasn't had like, some form of like mm-hmm.

Boyfriend or girlfriend. Mm-hmm. Like everyone trauma bonds there. Oh yeah. You know? Yeah. Yeah. But this is different. This is like, this is like, um, wayward teens. Mm-hmm. Right? Yeah. Yeah. So is there a lot of trauma that comes out of that? 'cause what we know from like the documentaries and stuff, things like that, more Utah based, are like very abusive and traumatizing and not therapeutic at all.

Leah Sherry: Absolutely. I think I had a sense that because I had already been to a little bit of na

Heather: mm-hmm.

Leah Sherry: I had a sense it didn't need to be like this. I [01:07:00] had a sense that, you know, definitely in 12 Step you identify your addiction as a disease, as a sickness. But outside of that, I had started to slightly like who I was, maybe from the attention I was getting.

Heather: Hmm. Yeah.

Leah Sherry: And so I didn't think I needed to be broken down and built up.

Heather: Yeah.

Leah Sherry: The things they were trying to break, I didn't feel necessary. Like I, I felt like I needed some convincing mm-hmm. Around my entire self being utterly problematic.

Heather: Okay.

Leah Sherry: Because that's what you need to believe to. But you

Heather: didn't think that fall

Leah Sherry: in line?

I didn't. Okay. I didn't.

Heather: You're like, I'm a good person. I'm doing crazy shit right now.

Leah Sherry: Yeah. And I felt actually highly appreciative for, uh, addiction because I realized had I not found cocaine and hit bottom, I'd be out there drinking beers and smoking weed in a really, kind of [01:08:00] slowed death of a fucked up, ignorant life.

Heather: Yes. Yeah. Right. There is a part of me that's like, oh, thank God. Yeah, that's fucking over. Mm-hmm. And now I never have to go through like a, a week of like, oh my God, I drank way too much this week. Mm-hmm. And I'm hung over. Or like, I had a, someone died and I'm just binging, like, that's over.

Leah Sherry: You know? Yeah.

This like, as they say, the fog was really lifted for me and I saw that living without drugs and alcohol was of huge benefit to me.

Heather: Mm-hmm. At 19.

Leah Sherry: And I think that's because I was so young. Yeah. Like, like I hadn't had a lifetime of destruction. I hadn't married the wrong person and raised kids with him for decades and then tried to sort things out.

Like I was pretty fresh. And you know, I mean this program was 18 months and I. Holy shit. Yeah. 18

Heather: months. You're making

Leah Sherry: good. Bang.

Heather: What the fuck are you doing for [01:09:00] 18 months?

Leah Sherry: Well, I think looking back on it, I think part of it was a bit of a racket where people were avoiding jail time.

Heather: Yeah.

Leah Sherry: Who people who had connections and good lawyers and money were avoiding jail time by being sentenced to Stonehenge.

And the 18 months was

Heather: prison essentially was

Leah Sherry: like the, the, okay, the sentence, the appropriate sentence. Did it feel like

Heather: prison?

Leah Sherry: Oh yeah. Yeah. Like you leave, I mean, we were, we were supervised. We were, yeah. So do you have

Heather: friends?

Leah Sherry: No. No. I felt the, the craziness of this place.

Heather: And why couldn't you have friends?

Because what I've learned from these docs and stuff. Mm-hmm. It's like you rat out your neighbor kind of, yeah. There's like no trust.

Leah Sherry: They don't want you side processing. They don't want you coming together and, and recognizing that something's very wrong with what's happening. Okay. And also they didn't want men kind of pursuing you sexually.

That was a thing.

Heather: Did you have sex there?

Leah Sherry: No, but I had, wow. I had a, I had men, [01:10:00] I had a memory, I was watching wayward and I had kind of a memory of a guy who was assigned to kitchen duty. So we had this apron on and this hair net hot. And he was six feet tall and he was very wealthy from a very wealthy family.

And so he had like perfect skin and he'll always look like he had like lip lip gloss on or something. He was a very sort of interesting looking, I'm gonna say frat boy.

Heather: Okay.

Leah Sherry: Vibes.

Heather: Okay, here we go.

Leah Sherry: And I was in, uh, the corner of a hallway. I think there was like, I was assigned to the kitchen, which was a real.

To get inside to the kitchen meant you were doing something right. You were doing something right. Oh, perfect. Because you didn't have to like clean something gross or rake rocks. Right. You could like,

Heather: yeah.

Leah Sherry: So he was in the kitchen and I went to get something from the pantry and he followed me and he was looming over me, um, telling me, um, I really, you know, we need to [01:11:00] find somewhere to be together.

I need to be alone with you. And it it, and it was that thing that, that men will do that's, that's stands in for flattery or, or like, I think he felt he was complimenting me like, you're so hot. I'm really turned on.

Heather: Yeah. Oh

Leah Sherry: my God, I need you this kind of, this kind of language. And yet I, I think he was like sweaty but also with the lip gloss effect,

Heather: gross

Leah Sherry: and the hair net and the apron.

And I just remember, I'm looking up at this and I'm like thinking. This is a Muppet. I might, this is a, this is a fucking Muppet. And I may have to play along. Like I may have to play along. Yeah. Like I certainly wasn't in a position to reject him, say, Ew, tell on him, because I, it would certainly have been my fault.

Heather: And I'm just going to assume that that's not the first time you were [01:12:00] in a situation like that. Oh. Where we have to play along. I mean, that's a whole other Yeah, it is. Yeah. A terrifying thing. And especially you're in a re or a rehab, like a, a cult. Yeah. You're at this, this, this institution. Yeah. And those things are happening.

Mm-hmm. Right. 1000% would've been your fault? Well,

Leah Sherry: I was already vilified as some kind of black sheep in the place because I wasn't, you know, I was constantly in the hot seat. That hot seat thing they do in Wayward.

Heather: Yeah.

Leah Sherry: I was constantly in the hot seat being challenged. Um, was that

Heather: because you were not fully giving in?

Leah Sherry: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's crazy. Yeah.

Heather: Did it ever work? Did you ever give in and just cry?

Leah Sherry: Mm, I did. Uh, no, I didn't cry, but I played along one day because I had decided I was going to escape. So I.

Heather: My nipples just literally got hard when you said that. Oh, zing. That was really exciting. Yeah. I decided I was gonna

Leah Sherry: escape and I had a piece of the blanket with me from when [01:13:00] I was born.

It's like my blue blanko, and it has a very,

Heather: literally leave it to a drug addict to be like so fucking sentimental. Mm-hmm.

Leah Sherry: Mm-hmm.

Heather: Like I don't have any belongings, but I do have this ratty old blanket that was, and when I

Leah Sherry: say ratty, like it was like a ripped corner of the blanket, right? Yeah. That was just like, do still have it?

Oh yeah. Okay. I feel like I should have brought it. I, it's like central to my story.

Heather: Bring me one thing that like, I'll, I'll, I'll show you,

Leah Sherry: I'll show you this blanket in the dog park later. Okay. So I brought, I had that with me at Stonehenge and I was also big into my journals. That was like my best friend, my one place.

So I, do you still have them? Yeah. Okay. I ripped all the pages outta my journal, folded them, tubed them up, stuffed them in aspects of my clothing and my blue blankie and I. Left at four in the morning, walked the road.

Heather: Wait, so can you just walk out the door?

Leah Sherry: Yeah, yeah. Okay. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Heather: Holy by yourself.

Leah Sherry: I mean, [01:14:00] an alarm went off, but there's nobody awake. Like, okay. Everyone's asleep. So like, just a beep. Like just a door beep? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Not an alarm. A door beep. Okay. So, and they had record of when I left because they saw the next morning. Leah's not here. Where'd she go? Check her room. She's gone.

Oh shit. Like people did often walk the road, but there was a whole ideology around it where you were made to feel like something was incredibly broken and wrong with you. If you take the road, like you are the epitome of weakness. Yeah. And your monsters, your brokenness, your addiction has taken over.

Even we can help you if you walk the road.

Heather: What a metaphor for like the road you're actually walking.

Leah Sherry: Mm-hmm. So. Where was this? Where is it? It was out some highway, uh, past Guelph. So I walked the road, which big road, like far out into the highway. And then I walked the highway to a phone booth and I called my mom and dad and they came and picked me up and they were relieved.

I think they had a sense that that wasn't the right [01:15:00] place. Do you

Heather: think?

Leah Sherry: Yeah, my mom was really relieved 'cause she missed me. I'd been there four months. And, um,

Heather: you only went four months? Mm-hmm. Okay, so you didn't stay 18 months? Mm-hmm. Okay. Okay. And did you get calls home?

Leah Sherry: No. No, I hadn't earned calls home at that point.

Heather: Yeah, that's problematic.

Leah Sherry: Oh yeah.

Heather: I feel like at any mom would be like, uh, I probably You hear from your kids in prison,

Leah Sherry: right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So you should hear from your kids. Well, and I, and something that always, like, I was paying attention to details. Like something that really bothered me was these social workers who, you know, worked there would come in in the morning.

Because they, they didn't live there. They worked. They would come in.

Heather: Yeah.

Leah Sherry: And they would've gone to Tim Horton's, which was the, the coffee place in the nineties and picked up themselves up a coffee and they would be carrying this Tim Horton's cup with them all day. Whereas we had to earn things like a Tim bit for dessert.

Um, a [01:16:00] chocolate milk, like a Noname brand. Yeah. You're like, what are we doing here? And I would look at this guy and I'd be like, you're a fucking nothing. Yeah. Just like me. Mm-hmm. And you walk in and outta here. And so the whole rhetoric, and I think I challenged him on it, and he said, well, I didn't get arrested for armed robbery.

I did not, you know, hit the streets with cocaine. And I was like, yeah, but that's not a di that's not differentiating.

Heather: Mm-hmm. That's just situational.

Leah Sherry: Yeah. And, and who knows what your creepy, at least my creepy shit is. Obvious.

Heather: Like, by the way, you're a fucking asshole to bring in a Tim Horton's couple.

Yeah. We all are like starving. Yeah. Like

Leah Sherry: no men didn't even notice, right? No. So I, I think I was the, it was little things like that that made me realize this is, this is a

Heather: farce, this is a crock of shit. When you start to see the cracks, and honestly, four months is a really long time. It kind of is when I

Leah Sherry: look back.

But I, I [01:17:00] kind of, you know, I, when I recognized what I'd been through and I got on my feet really quickly, started going to NA and you know, got a job, all the things finished high school using like correspondence courses. You did? Yep. Good for you. Applied to university on a, on a, on a, on a, like a prank and got accepted.

Nice.

Heather: Where

Leah Sherry: in Waterloo? At Lure.

Heather: Oh yeah.

Leah Sherry: Didn't even know what I wanted to take. Just started taking courses that read nicely in the course calendar. Mm-hmm. One thing led to another and I built a really amazing, socially appropriate healthy life. But, you know,

Heather: and you're not drinking at all?

Leah Sherry: No, I'm an na.

I'm, yeah. Like you're fully I am like religious in NA. Okay. I'm going to a meeting a day. I'm sponsoring women. Wow. I'm running step groups. I'm doing service. I get elected as the chair of the area. I get asked to speak at a major convention as [01:18:00] the main speaker.

Heather: Oh, fuck you.

Leah Sherry: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Oh yeah. I was, I was, you were in it.

I was famous. You're

Heather: the best one at a, at na. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Leah Sherry: I was a known entity.

Heather: It's very important. I was the best one at rehab. Yeah. And it was very important, like a whirlwind, like a

Leah Sherry: whirlwind. Yeah, it was very important. I, I did well with that. Yeah. That helped me a lot.

Heather: Were you like that your whole life, like in school and stuff?

Were you like, oh, I have to be the best? No. Me either. I hate it at all. Even close.

Leah Sherry: Not even close. It's personality based. Yeah. And environment based, like, like the context of work in school. I always felt like an imposter. Like, this is where they'll know I'm not smart. This is where they'll know I can't do this job.

I'm just faking

Heather: it. Oh my God. That's why any job I ever had, I'm, I've always been bad at, and that's not me being hard on myself. I'm really not good at the jobs I was doing. But any job I would have, I would like just kiss the ass of whoever was my boss. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That way you like me, so if I fuck up, it's just like, that's just Heather.

Mm-hmm. It's like, you're not actually gonna get so mad at me [01:19:00] because like you love me. You know? And that's my saving grace. Well, and you

Leah Sherry: said it literally is saving grace, right? Mm-hmm. Like these patterns of behavior are quite effective. Yeah. For a end game, end goal, purpose.

Heather: Wow. Like nobody

Leah Sherry: ever gets to really know us.

That's what I think is very sad. That is part of it too,

Heather: though. Like the awareness.

Leah Sherry: Awareness. Feel sad.

Heather: Feel sad. Yeah. Like the awareness of like, oh, I know I'm going into this, or I know I feel this certain way, or like, I leave my body at this time. Like mm-hmm. Yeah. Not everyone's gonna get to know that.

You just can't. 'cause I'm always putting something on. I'm always, mm-hmm. There's always some sort of facade except for maybe Ian. Oh, Ian gets to know. I think he just, yeah. Really. He's very easy to be around. Yeah. Yeah. And like, that's our whole thing. We just go to the dog park and talk about mental health.

He's very safe. I love him. Mm-hmm. So easy.

Leah Sherry: Mm-hmm.

Heather: Um, you're 19, you're in all these things. You're heading the groups. You're B, B, B, you're the best one in aa. You're [01:20:00] not doing drugs. You're just a nice girl. Mm-hmm. Obviously there's a second round coming in eventually. Oh yeah. But not for 15 years. Yeah. So for 15 years.

What are we doing? Oh,

Leah Sherry: seized the fucking world. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I led my charge. I felt like a house on fire.

Heather: Mm. It's

Leah Sherry: probably the best time of my life. Okay. You just

Heather: traveled everywhere.

Leah Sherry: Yep. And I, you know, finished, I worked full-time and finished university part-time. I worked full-time, finished grad school part-time.

Heather: What did you get degrees

Leah Sherry: in? Uh, so initially I found my way in, uh, cultural studies, women's studies, communication studies. That's my undergrad. Mm-hmm. And then, um, so, so at that time I was sort of newly politicized through all the things I was learning at school. And I had [01:21:00] done some traveling, but realized this is a weird way to travel, to show up in a country, you know, that's predominantly, you know, brown or black, and see what's happening there.

And peer in as a voyeur. Mm-hmm. Off a bus with a group of white people. Yeah. So I was like, I, you know. Grain of salt. Like I understand this now to be, you know, poverty, tourism, and all. Sure. Sort of the ethnocentric problems with what it means to be someone who wants to be, who's white and privileged and western and whatever.

Yeah. From this part of the world. But we're in our

Heather: twenties, we just stopped doing crack. We are on the road. Oh my God.

Leah Sherry: And not only am I on the road, I'm gonna make up for the, uh, my colonizing, you know. Yeah. Ancestors. I'm German and British, so Oh, the worst ones, right? The worst ones. Oh no. So I'm going to travel the world and.

And save. Save. Humanity. Humanity. Yeah. [01:22:00]

Heather: Damn. We really have that when we're in our twenties. A like, I'm gonna solve racism. Yeah. I've got it. We're all friends now. So problematic.

Leah Sherry: So, uh, I decided I wanted to live immersed in a different culture, not just travel. Mm-hmm. And I ended up, uh, in India with a group of people I fell in love with being there.

Mm-hmm. And decided I wanna stay beyond the original six months. So how did you handle the heat? Oh, same way I handled everything else.

Heather: You just did

Leah Sherry: it. I overrode discomfort. Yeah. And it was, felt very purposeful. Mm-hmm. I, I, I kind of, it was a badge of honor that the heat, the smells, the crowds, none of that bothered me.

Heather: Yeah. I

Leah Sherry: wasn't like the other white people.

Heather: Right. Oh, I'm so different. 100%. Did you fall in love there?

Leah Sherry: Yes, I did. You did? Yeah. Absolutely. Eventually, eventually. Mm-hmm. Eventually. But initially what I was in love with was, [01:23:00] um, being somewhere other than kitchen or Waterloo. Yeah. And feeling what that felt like, um, to have my sort of experience of the world and myself cracked open.

Heather: Yeah.

Leah Sherry: Um, so there's a lot happening India as a whole story, but, uh, six months turned into two years and I was out on, I had started a business there and had take, taken a vacation out to the Himalayas to do some trekking and was in a remote Himalayan village that went into, uh, military coup because there had been, uh, local, uh, Buddhist llama was murdered by an, uh, Islamic fundamentalist, oh, for goodness sakes, this type of thing.

And so classic the town shut down and we had to go and lock up in our hotels and we were allowed one phone call a day we could come out of the hotel [01:24:00] and the military would. Get us safely to a phone booth where we could make a phone call.

Heather: Oh. It's like, okay. So it's more dangerous. We're in dangerous territory.

Yeah.

Leah Sherry: It's just a lockdown to ensure that it was a big, uh, tourist kind of like destination for treks. Okay. So there were a lot of foreigners and a lot of like tourist Yeah. Industry there. So anyways, I never would've done this because I didn't really stay too in touch with my family when I was living in it.

I mean, I did, but it wasn't like,

Heather: it's not now where you have, we weren't codependent about it. Yeah. It was just like, yeah, we're not FaceTiming every day.

Leah Sherry: Oh god. Yeah. So because we had this specific phone call time, I was like, well, I might as well use my call to check in with my parents. Especially if they're hearing there's some kind of military coup.

Yeah.

Heather: Maybe give dad a call.

Leah Sherry: Yeah. But of course they weren't. 'cause nobody cares in the West about what's happening in the east. I know we don't say west and east anymore, but I'm from the fucking nineties. I can say shit like that. I never know what direction we're talking about, but yeah, I know. What's the center of the earth?

Africa. Right.

Heather: Oh, I thought it was me. [01:25:00] I guess I've been mistaken, but I'm gonna continue conducting my dad myself in this way. Oh, is it China? Is it Africa?

Leah Sherry: Is it Sometimes it's India, actually, depending on who we're talking to, but Okay. I called home, my mom answered, and I knew right away something was different in her voice and she said, I am so happy you called.

I had a feeling you were gonna call dad's in the hospital.

Heather: Oh.

Leah Sherry: And I immediately, I forget, I remember this moment. I'll never forget this moment. I remember immediately thinking, whose dad? 'cause it wouldn't be my dad because my dad was cut from stone. He was as solid. Yeah. As God's earth. Like

Heather: he's, yeah. He couldn't be,

Leah Sherry: there was nobody more consistent and more hearty and more forever than my dad.

Yeah. It was my dad and he was on a canoe trip. [01:26:00] Uh, and he turned yellow. His eyes turned yellow. He started hallucinating. Also very unusual for my dad, you know?

Heather: Yeah. His brain is stoned too.

Leah Sherry: Stoic. Yeah. Sensible. They had to canoe him out, get him to the hospital. He was diagnosed with, um, liver disease.

Mm-hmm. A sudden onset. Why? And no diabetes, nothing. I rushed home, uh, from this remote Himalayan village in a military coup and a monsoon. I rushed home, got to the deli airport, flew home. My friends came to the airport to pick me up with I, which I thought was weird.

Heather: Mm-hmm.

Leah Sherry: And they were very solemn.

Heather: Oh, no.

No.

Leah Sherry: And they had seen my dad and been to see my dad and knew he's going to die. Oh. He doesn't qualify for a liver transplant because his diagnosis is alcoholic liver disease. Is he an alcoholic? Mm-hmm. Yeah. But he's, you know, my parents [01:27:00] were highly functional alcoholics.

Heather: Yeah. Everyone's dad is a, the functional alcoholic for part.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. For

Leah Sherry: the most part. It was, my mom's drinking was always problematic, and my mom was the one I, we always thought was going to, you know, spiral into some type of disastrous, tragic, early death. Yeah. So it was incredibly shocking, surprising, groundbreaking that this was happening. And before we could even acknowledge that we should have some end of life conversations, we should consider this as grave and imminent, he then did die.

Mm. And, uh, that I never, I've never been the same. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. That was in 2001. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Was

Heather: that before or after nine 11? Wait a second. Mm-hmm.

Leah Sherry: It would've been before, wouldn't

Heather: it? Before nine 11.

Leah Sherry: Yeah. So

Heather: he saw it.

Leah Sherry: No.

Heather: When was nine [01:28:00] 11? 2005? 2001. 2005? No, 2001. September 11th, 2001. I was in grade one.

I'm very, very specific. About nine 11

Leah Sherry: then. You know what? Mm-hmm. Then he died in 2000. You're right. Because my first, see, this is

Heather: why you bring up nine 11. It's an easy marker

Leah Sherry: because 2000, oh, it really is for me, it's the pandemic two thou March, 2020. 2020.

Heather: Yeah.

Leah Sherry: It, yes, because you're right. It was. It was, and I, I feel like that whole year I blocked out.

Because I turned the century in India. I was in India. In India. In India. Came home.

Heather: Mm-hmm.

Leah Sherry: My dad died and then I went to teachers college.

Heather: Oh, okay. So we switched our life. Mm-hmm. We turned our life around. Mm-hmm. Or not turned around, but we took a corner.

Leah Sherry: I took a corner from fundraising in India and running NGOs to, I need to settle into a, [01:29:00] a, a proper career.

Heather: Yeah. We can't be gallivanting all over the Himalayas. What are we talking about? I

Leah Sherry: think that's actually what my men, my mentor actually said those very words to me. This gallivanting needs to stop. Was it me? Yes, it was.

Heather: I was seven and very excited about nine 11. You're very excited about nine 11. Yeah. Oh yeah, yeah.

And then, okay, so we go to teacher's college, go to teacher's college, become a teacher. Hate that.

Leah Sherry: Hate that. Of course. I hate that.

Heather: Yeah.

Leah Sherry: Uh, but, but, uh, uh, it's, it's, it's a highly approvable life. A provable life. Mm-hmm. Like my mom is of course very happy, and it's important to make my mom happy because seeing your parent without their person is an aspect of losing a parent that you don't anticipate until it happens.

Right. It's a part of the grief that almost feels like its own separate loss with its own Olympic sized pool of grief. Like seeing her without my dad. I would've done anything to, right? Oh yeah. Make [01:30:00] her feel, oh yeah, okay. In the world,

Heather: I'll just stop my whole life.

Leah Sherry: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So I went to uc college.

She was very happy. I became a teacher. I hated it. She was still very happy. Um, and then I found my way in teaching. I found that there were programs that had kids like me that I could teach at, and no one wanted those jobs. 'cause no one wanted to be around those kids. So I easily got these jobs and I became an expert.

I am those kids. I became such an expert in this. I was seconded to the ministry. What does that mean? It means that the Ministry of Education sees you and says, we want her on our expert panel advising on legislation.

Heather: Oh my God.

Leah Sherry: So I was brought in to advise on, uh, anti-bullying legislation.

Heather: Oh. Didn't work?

Leah Sherry: No. No, of course it didn't. It also, it also wasn't the arrival I thought it would be. That's when I realized I have achieved the epitome of what I ever thought I would achieve in this education career, including [01:31:00] starting a PhD and dropping out. It just what this life is not for me. I am not meant,

Heather: that's how I feel

Leah Sherry: to work.

Heather: Yeah. That is how I feel. I'm like, I know this is the dumbest fucking thing to say, but like, I literally can't do a job that I don't like or I will not do it. Yeah.

Leah Sherry: Yeah.

Heather: And I will get fired every time. Yeah.

Leah Sherry: Well I think it, your generation mm-hmm. Is getting away with this in a way. Yeah. There are alternate streams.

There are ways and means in my time you just worked. Yeah. And if you hated it, you just hated your life.

Heather: Mm-hmm.

Leah Sherry: And whatever came of that comes of that. Right. So I was a workaholic, I was clean and whatever, but I was a workaholic.

Heather: Okay.

Leah Sherry: And in 2009,

Heather: eight years after 9 11,

Leah Sherry: 8 years exactly. After nine 11, I decided, um, I was gonna have wine with dinner. Oh.[01:32:00]

Heather: Do you like how the whole entire story,

Leah Sherry: that's the thing I gasped at. I know. I like that. It's our little, our little touchstone. I know of all the things.

Heather: Holy shit. Okay, so you're just, you're single at this point.

Leah Sherry: Uh, yep.

Heather: Okay. And you're like, you know what? I'm good.

Leah Sherry: I was in a terrible, uh, heart. Not terrible.

It was heartbreaking breakup with my daughter's father. Okay. In 2009, we had met, he was fresh out of his marriage, so he was sort of, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I was of course, highly anxiously attached and willing to wait for him and do anything to hang in there while he figured out what he wanted.

And then in the end, what he wanted was to date other women.

Heather: Oh.

Leah Sherry: So because it's fun when

Heather: that's the solution, because he'd

Leah Sherry: never done that before. So you're like,

Heather: oh, you don't wanna be with, okay. That's what I, I

Leah Sherry: mean, I am ultimately the best option. Yes, that's available, of course. But I see why you would wanna figure that out for yourself.

Heather: Yeah. So [01:33:00] they can't handle the best.

Leah Sherry: He, um, went off and I decided I need to start going back to India. I need to start going back to California. I also have a love affair with California. And so I started doing that and, uh, at that time, California was having a real craft beer movement.

Heather: Okay.

Leah Sherry: So it actually, I should say it wasn't wine with dinner that I decided to do.

That's kind of the metaphor. Mm-hmm. What I decided to do was drink a delicious beer with a friend from climbing who didn't know I was sober, because there was, of course, I was so sober and so normal. Yeah. And stop going to na then nobody even knew that I was a sober person. It didn't matter. It wasn't an interesting part of my life.

Yeah. We would go out for sushi after climbing, and some people would get beer, some people wouldn't. It wasn't a thing. Yeah. No one was looking at my ginger ale.

Heather: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So

Leah Sherry: a girlfriend from climbing invited me out. Here's my opportunity. I order a beer. This was at the Beaver on Queen Street.

Okay. I don't know if anyone remembers the Beaver, but it was a nice little spot. [01:34:00]

Heather: Uhhuh. I love that you remember it. Well, of course you do.

Leah Sherry: Unbeknownst to her, I'm having my first beer in 15 years as a sober recovering addict.

Heather: What did that even, okay. Oh, I

Leah Sherry: felt so sneaky. Yeah.

Heather: Yeah.

Leah Sherry: And I wanna say, and I don't wanna be triggering to listeners, that beer made me feel like a goddess.

I, I still remember that beer and the way it felt, the warmth that it brought to my body, the ease that came into my bones.

Heather: Did you feel like you were home?

Leah Sherry: Mm, I think it's a joy. Yeah. Right. Of, of melting into my own skin and belonging there.

Heather: I think that's a part where it's like, not only when you drink, you feel like you're home.

You feel like you're you.

Leah Sherry: Mm-hmm. You know? That's it. And, and like I was being acquainted with a long lost

Heather: Yeah. You're like, there she is.

Leah Sherry: Everything. Fuck. And I loved how normal it was to have a beer. I was [01:35:00] like, well, I'm not storing fucking lines off someone's tits right now.

Heather: Yeah. Literally. Like, I'm not at that in, in Walmart with the baby.

The baby changing table. Like I'm not a establishment. No.

Leah Sherry: I'm at an establishment with a respectable, beautiful human being.

Heather: Yeah.

Leah Sherry: Who I rock climb with.

Heather: Yeah.

Leah Sherry: Having a beer.

Heather: Yeah.

Leah Sherry: And I'm in a bike home to my cute little apartment in Parkdale Uhhuh. And I'm gonna go to sleep and I'm gonna get up and go to fucking work tomorrow.

Heather: Yeah.

Leah Sherry: I'm probably even gonna have a shower and eat breakfast. Whoa. I will likely brush my teeth like I'm clearly fine.

Heather: Yeah.

Leah Sherry: This is nothing like it was before.

Heather: Mm-hmm.

Leah Sherry: And

Heather: then,

Leah Sherry: and then I, you know, decided on a Friday I should probably grab a six pack.

Heather: Yeah.

Leah Sherry: Just for the weekend. Just to kind of get through the beautiful weekend

Heather: mm-hmm.

Leah Sherry: That we have upon us. Why not in Parkdale?

Heather: Why not?

Leah Sherry: Yeah. And so six pack [01:36:00] that Friday afternoon beer, like I felt like, I felt like when I would get home from work and crack that first beer, I would feel like there was, there was dancing. Yes. Dancing in my body.

Heather: Yeah. Right. I know that feeling. It's all the way up.

The

Leah Sherry: warmth, the dance. You're so

Heather: excited.

Leah Sherry: Fucking punch the sky. Yeah. Hmm.

Heather: And it's like your little secret. It's like what this is about to do to me is like something you don't even understand. Oh. You

Leah Sherry: don't even understand. And so I think I would just ha obviously you have to keep that going. 'cause

Heather: the

Leah Sherry: thing I always found interesting about alcohol in hindsight was how quick that buzz is and how you do have to keep drinking.

Yeah. Otherwise, when you come off of that, that's, I, I'm not, I was not good at that part. No. Of drinking.

Heather: I didn't often do it. I didn't often come off the buzz. Me neither. Right. Me neither. Yeah. Definitely not at the end.

Leah Sherry: So I'd drink till I slept. Wake up, repeat. This continued to happen and yeah. [01:37:00] So 2009 until 2020 I got clean.

Heather: Oh yeah. Okay.

Leah Sherry: In 2020, in February of 2020

Heather: from 2009. Mm-hmm. To 2020.

Leah Sherry: Mm-hmm.

Heather: That's when you were drinking? Mm-hmm. Oh shit. Mm-hmm. Okay. And it's, we're in full, full blown addiction. Again, we're

Leah Sherry: in full blown, but because I've got this normal life, there are sections of time where I'm sort of not drinking, but not because I don't, 'cause I have a problem just because I'm a normal person and this is not a drinking time.

Mm-hmm. Like I think I would, I think what, what I was doing, you would classify it as, it was a bit bingy like okay, I would do some benders for a while and then I would

Heather: nothing

Leah Sherry: sort things out for a while, and then I would do some benders for a while and sort things out for a while, but not because I was trying to quit or because it was even on my mind.

I think I would just naturally go there.

Heather: Mm-hmm. Right. And in this time you also had a kid?

Leah Sherry: Yeah, I had a [01:38:00] kid in 20 20 13,

Heather: which is 12 years after nine 11 and mm-hmm. 2013. And you're drinking. Did you drink?

Leah Sherry: Well, when we were trying to get pregnant, I came off like I didn't. Okay. I didn't, I wasn't drinking.

It didn't feel like a thing. Um, again, that contributed to my sense of normalcy. Like, look, I'm fine. I can drink. I can not drink.

Heather: Yeah.

Leah Sherry: It's all good.

Heather: And then when did it get to a point where you were like, oh, fuck, I've gotta stop.

Leah Sherry: So after my daughter was born, I had, so the week my daughter was born, so there was no using through pregnancy, all that, that was all fine.

And then did you

Heather: crave it during pregnancy?

Leah Sherry: Not at all. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was, some people really don't Yeah. Crave it. I was in another world.

Heather: Yeah. I

Leah Sherry: was in another world then, uh, the week that my daughter was born, uh, my mother died finally, um, from [01:39:00] smoking and drinking. Perfect. Mm-hmm. And I was, you know.

Had significant postpartum anxiety. Not because my mother died, but because I was, had a propensity for that. And sure enough, full blown. Um, and then she died. So that was, that's, that was, that's fucking crazy. I mean, there's no way to even describe what that was like. I mean, a newborn and my newborn at my mom's funeral and all of that.

Like, it's a bit a, it's so weird. It's a bit of a whirl. Yeah. Um, so we got through that and then it was a hard year. Like that's probably a whole other topic, but I don't think maternal instinct is actually a natural thing. I think that a maternal instinct is something you earn after surviving how hard and awful it feels to have a baby and how hard and awful it feels that it's hard and awful.

Mm-hmm. Because we are promised that it is amazing.

Heather: Yeah. [01:40:00] Okay. That is a whole other topic

Leah Sherry: and it is, we will have to get into that. It was hard and awful and uh, and I also had this postpartum anxiety and also my parents had both died from addiction. And what was I to make of all of that? And, um, carrying always a sense of myself as broken in less than, and certainly my partner at the time, my daughter's father, being pretty much near perfect human being, highly socially acceptable, very well put together.

Heather: will say though, it didn't

Leah Sherry: help,

Heather: but I will say the men, the seeming get away with a lot more. Yes. And the seemingly perfect men that come into our lives seem really perfect because we think we're. Pieces of shit. That's a great point, right? Mm-hmm. Like they're

Leah Sherry: really not, they're really not. Can't be. And nor did he claim to be.

Yeah. And anytime I sort of would acknowledge in the relationship, this is problematic for me because I feel like such a street urchin [01:41:00] compared to you. You'd be like, well handle that. 'cause you're not like,

Heather: and I'd be like, I can't. Yeah. I don't know how to, the dangerous place though, when you have the man up on a pedestal, just like

Leah Sherry: Yeah, he was, he was idealized.

Mm-hmm. Entirely. So I went to my doctor who said, well, you can certainly safely take, um, you know, anti-anxiety medication for your OCD and for your postpartum anxiety, which has gone through the roof. What you can also try, what we're, what we're doing with, uh, new moms is, um, per we're prescribing cannabis,

it wasn't legal yet, or it was legal for medicinal.

Heather: Okay. I'm like already hating it.

Leah Sherry: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. So I started, uh, using after my daughter would go to bed, um, she was just over a year, I would, uh, take a [01:42:00] tiny hit off of like an OG vape. Like this thing was like, looked like a prototype Yeah. From some kid's fucking mother's basement and battery's

Heather: not included, would

Leah Sherry: take a tiny hit off this thing and watch, uh, an episode of Master Chef.

Heather: Mm-hmm.

Leah Sherry: And I felt

Heather: lovely.

Leah Sherry: Everything was fine. Yeah. Everything was going to be fine. And you know how this goes, um, by the time I called Jane Tweed to get some help. With day treatment. 'cause I didn't want my daughter to miss me. I didn't, you know, want to go anywhere overnight. Right. Yeah. So I knew I to do a Yeah.

I'm assuming

Heather: you're thinking I've already done it. I don't need to go anywhere's. It's fine. That's fine.

Leah Sherry: Oh yeah. And I was, I was like, this is not a 12 step situation. No. Like, I know what's, I need a serious intervention. Mm-hmm. I need to shake out the cobwebs. I know what I'm doing. I'll take three weeks off work.

Mm-hmm. And I'll go to Jane Tweed in Tobago in the morning and I'll do their therapy groups and understand [01:43:00] why I am using at this chronic level. Yeah. And you know, uh, because I had tried to stop, uh, I was smoking like an enormous amount of weed a week and I wasn't feeling anything. And it was very busy.

Right. Like to procure that much cannabis and. It had just become legal also in the fall before I sobered up.

Heather: Okay.

Leah Sherry: And they had the OPP had just started introducing technology to test if you were impaired, driving with cannabis alone. Mm-hmm. And I was very nervous because of course I drove high, which I didn't feel.

And anyone's who's a chronic weed smoker, nose, you're not high.

Heather: No. You're just like maintaining. You're just normal. Yeah.

Leah Sherry: So I drove, not thinking I was high, but surely I would test as impaired. So, uh, I got very nervous and I was like, I think I need to rein this in. But I couldn't rein it in. I would still smoke, hi, smoke in the car while I'm driving, not even thinking if I got pulled over, not only would I test [01:44:00] high, the car would smell it, the car would smell like marijuana.

Heather: Oh

Leah Sherry: yeah. The invincibility of a using addict. Truly. So I went, anyways, I couldn't stop, went to Jane Tweed and you know, I'm, once I, once I crack the back of the thing, I'm pretty good. Okay. We

Heather: also like know you have to be sober.

Leah Sherry: I

Heather: think I know sober

Leah Sherry: that

Heather: this is, I don't fuck around with the the should I, should I not, can I be mm-hmm.

Can I not? It's like, oh, fuck me, I'm already here. I gotta be done. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And I

Leah Sherry: reacquainted with friends who I'd got clean with in the nineties who were still clean and had like 30 years in na. And were like, so cool. Yeah. So it was a whole, it was a whole thing. It was pretty fun.

Heather: So you did do a day program?

Leah Sherry: I did. Yeah. And

Heather: that helped?

Leah Sherry: Yes. It, it was, it was,

Heather: wow. Well, it's a great way to like end it too, because it's like marijuana is so addictive. Well, and again, unseemingly [01:45:00] So, unseemingly, so. Mm-hmm. I, I, I've said this before, anything that will let me. Dissociate and lie in my bed all day. Mm-hmm. I'm fucking doing it.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So like this idea that microdosing shrooms or shrooms in general or weed isn't addictive. Mm-hmm. I'm like, alright, come over and watch me rot for 48 hours. It's a matter of time. Yeah. It really is. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Damn. This, I feel like, I mean, I know there's so much more to your story. There's like an insane amount, but I'm so the dogs have to go to the park.

Dogs have to go to the park. But I am so grateful that you came in today. Oh my God. Was, oh God. What a of of my favorite

Leah Sherry: conversations. Did we have fun? Like I had fun. Oh my God. This podcast, is this what one does the podcast. You did such a good job. Yeah. And

Heather: I, I feel like you carried the entire thing and I'm just like listening to you, which is what I kind of love to do anyway at the park.

But thank you so much for coming and I'm honestly like, I feel like we're closer now.

Leah Sherry: Mm.

Heather: I adore you. I adore you, and I'm really fucking proud of you. [01:46:00] Mm-hmm.

Leah Sherry: I am unbelievably proud of you because I know what you're doing.

Heather: Mm-hmm.

Leah Sherry: We know this isn't easy.

Heather: Yeah. No. It's the secret club that we have that like, I know, and even though you don't think about alcohol all the time, it's like mm-hmm.

We've gone through this fucking shit regardless of like the differences in it. It's like it's really hard to do and what, what, what

Leah Sherry: I know is the hardest thing is the chop wood carry water day to day of addressing why we used in the first place. Yeah. And that's what you're doing Yeah. In your life.

Heather: Yeah.

I'm very aware now. Anything, any trigger, I'm like, oh, I would a drink about that and it's really fucking cool that I won't, you know,

Leah Sherry: well even just, you know, this thing of like, I've stopped working on myself and fixing myself because I adore as is. Um, I'm aware of the triggery things. I mean, I sort of just feel like the work [01:47:00] is to accept the work is to.

Be with Yeah. Bring presence to Yeah. Um, not exile and abandon parts of me that are disgusting. Yeah. It's all in, it's, it is all in It is because that is ultimately what's going to keep drinking uninteresting to me.

Heather: Totally. And as like, cool as it is to hop a fence with a miscarriage happening. Like, what a story.

What a story. We don't need to do that again. It's very

Leah Sherry: sensational. It's so sensational and so uninteresting to me. Like, you know, stories are fun and stories are whatever, and they're vibrant. It brings a little, but it is not why I like you.

Heather: Exactly. Yeah. I

Leah Sherry: know a hundred percent. And isn't

Heather: that cool?

Mm-hmm. Like our crazy fucking stories is not the reason why like, we like each other. Uh,

Leah Sherry: it, it, it's sort of like a, like a, wow. Okay. It's a bonus. Yikes. Okay. It's like, whatever. It's the thing we almost know.

Heather: Yeah.

Leah Sherry: It's an unconscious communication.

Heather: Yeah. [01:48:00] And we fucking survived it.

Leah Sherry: Mm-hmm.

Heather: Yes. All right. Let's take these kids to the park.

Okay. All right. Proud of you. Bye bye.

Thanks for listening to Girl Undrunk. You can follow us on Instagram and TikTok at Girl Undrunk Podcast and or send me an email at heather@girlundrunk.com at the park. She's like, you're fucking disgusting today. No, I don't wanna be

Leah Sherry: rude here.

Heather: Yeah, no, you are like, I have to be a recurring guest actually.

Mm, yes. Yes. I

Leah Sherry: should be actually.

Heather: Well, I want you to come back when Zoe's here, 'cause we have a lot of questions. I'd love to meet Zoe.

#GirlUndrunk #SobrietyJourney #AddictionRecovery #HealingIsNotLinear #SoberVoices #RecoveryPodcast #SoberCurious #EmotionalHealing #SpeakYourTruth #LifeWithoutAlcohol #WomenInRecovery #MentalHealthMatters #AlcoholFreeLife #SelfTrust #HealingOutLoud

Heather Chappell

#35: A Little Bit of A Lobotomy (feat. Leah Sherry)

A Little Bit of A Lobotomy Trancript

#36: Kinda Cool, Sorta Trashy

#34: Tough to Crack (feat. Chantel Vandenburg / In Good Company)

Girl, Undrunk