#22: Addiction Doesn't Discriminate
Heather and Zoe recap their trip to Toronto's ZERO Bar and unpack why talking about being sober can make people really uncomfortable. Plus—social media haters, the line between drinking and addiction, and why we'd still pull a tampon out for a bestie.
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Addiction Doesn't Discriminate: Transcript
Heather: [00:00:00] This podcast covers sensitive topics that may be difficult for some listeners. Please take care while listening.
Hi guys. Guys, welcome back to Girl Undrunk. How are ya? We're on episode 22. That's insane. I know. 22. It's crazy. I was already thinking, I'm like, we have to do something for 25. Yeah, and then we have to do something for 50, then 75, then a hundred. I wonder what correlates, what episode will correlate with Halloween?
We have to think about what we're gonna do for Halloween.
Zoe: I think for our Halloween episode, we should tell like, the most scary stories that we've like done.
Heather: Yeah. Or, and I think we should get like, listener, listener, horror stories. Yeah. Like, like [00:01:00] drinking horror stories. Yeah. I think that could be, yeah.
Tell some of our own as well. Yeah.
Zoe: We'll dress up on the pod.
Heather: We'll dress up on the pod. We, we gotta figure out some like redhead characters. Yeah.
Zoe: We need to get like a costume, like designer, makeup artist.
Heather: Okay. If anybody knows, who knows
Zoe: to come.
Heather: Budget is. No unlimited, unlimited budget. We need to, someone needs to email us or DM us and tell us who are some spooky redheads, some murderers, some spooky red redheads.
Zoe: We could dress up like those as those kids, I guess in the shining, or were they redheads?
Heather: They weren't, but like that's us. Yeah. Okay. Let's do that and just go into, break into people's apartments and just stand at the end of the hallway or, yeah, that's how we'll open the door. We should have a party.
Zoe: You are not gonna have a party.
You're not gonna have a party. You're not gonna have
Heather: a
Zoe: party. Hi Zoe.
Heather: Hi. How are
Zoe: you? I am good. Honestly, I feel really good. Yeah. I feel, I feel like great. Do you? I really do. Yeah. I kind of do too. I kind of have no complaints. I am. [00:02:00] I'm gonna be talking to my work next week about coming in late on Fridays to have the podcast on a regular day.
So I'm like a little bit nervous for that, but also like what makes, I don't think they can say no to me at this point. Like they need me around. What makes you nervous about it? I guess just like asking for things that I want. Yeah. Like it's not something that I'm comfortable with. Mm-hmm. Per se. Mm-hmm.
No. So. Scary and like confrontation in general is like, I'm not the best at it totally. But I know I like deserve it and like I need it. So
Heather: yeah. It's also your life. Yeah. And I mean confrontation, it is really just a question. Yeah. It's really just being like, this is what's going on in my life now. Yeah.
There's a shift. Can we work around this? Exactly. I'm totally fine.
Zoe: Yeah, and I was just saying like it is nice that like I am doing long distance with my boyfriend right now and I do obviously miss him, but it is nice to like have these not breaks because like I talk to him every night, but it's just like space Nice.
That it's not like [00:03:00] jealousy or like anything when I'm away from him and it just seems like so comfy and I can, when I'm away from him, I just. Do my own thing and it's nice to miss him. Yeah. It's so
Heather: nice.
Zoe: Yeah. I don't know. I just like, I feel like I'm in a really good spot right now.
Heather: I'm feeling pretty good too.
What would you say your mental health is? One outta 10 right now. I'm gonna say an 8.5. Okay. I'm into that. I'm just like, I know I can't
Zoe: control anything, so I'm just
Heather: like. Living my fucking life. Yeah. I'm doing this thing well. Doing this thing. I keep like saying this, like just going with the universe.
Yeah. The universe is just carrying me. Trusting it. Yeah. I, well I was talking to this person I'm involved with yesterday and I was like, I feel like, well I've had this conversation a few times 'cause my mental health recently so good. And that makes me nervous. Yeah. Yeah. 'cause I'm like, what's hap what's coming down the pipe?
I don't know. Have you heard of, um, communally
Zoe: sober being communally sober?
Heather: No. What is that? I like it
Zoe: Communally sober. Is it a commune of people who are [00:04:00] sober? I'll move there today. We should. Okay. So my friend was telling me last night that. They're seeing this non-binary person that lives in Seattle and they are sober, but they're communally sober.
Their LGBTQ plus community in Seattle is so big, and I guess a lot of them are sober because they have to be. Yeah. And this person just chooses to be sober. Sober. I can't speak. No, that was great. That was perfection. They choose to be sober for their community. Mm-hmm. They don't need to be sober themselves, but they're like my people that I surround myself with, they need to be sober, so I'd rather be sober to support them.
Yeah. And it's community being community sober. That's so nice. It's so nice. And it brings us back to the, our reels mm-hmm. That we've been getting a lot of hate on. Mm-hmm. Saying that, you know, if your partner needs to be sober, you should decide to be sober as well.
Heather: Yeah.
Zoe: These aren't even people in relationships together.
Yeah. They're just people part of a [00:05:00] community. Yeah. And they're choosing to be sober for the community. Mm. Which is so nice. Well, it's
Heather: empathy first. Mm-hmm. It's also community first. Yeah. Which is actually what. We are supposed to be doing as a society, you live longer, you're healthier, you're more like mentally stable if you're around community.
Yeah. And also like that's what addicts need. Addicts that are sober need to be around community. Yeah. I think that's beautiful. I think that's so
Zoe: cool. And yeah, just so like. Selfless, you know? Yeah. Like, I need to do, I want to do this for my people and this is what my people need.
Heather: However, that's not like super accessible for most people.
Yeah. And I'd also imagine early L-G-B-T-Q moving to the city. Yeah. Just like us early, moving to the city, the option of like hanging out with a bunch of sober people and having fun. Mm-hmm. That's not really, that's not really accessible. Yeah. Nor would I have wanted that, nor would I have known. Yeah.
Zoe: It's a good thing.
Well, my friend did say that when they were here last summer, visiting for a couple weeks, [00:06:00] they went to the village and they did go to a lot of, um, like sober events. I guess they were saying that there is more sober lgbtq plus like events in the city. Now that's good because like. A lot of the gay community is sober.
They were like, that makes sense that the Zero Bar is in the village. Yeah. Because of the community that's there.
Heather: So we went to Zero Bar last week. We talked about it on the podcast. Yeah. And we went
Zoe: right after. It was so fun. It was so fun. Definitely. Gail is amazing. Gail's the owner of Zero Bar Guys.
Just go see what a sweetheart. Literally you could talk to Gail
Heather: for
Zoe: hours and be
Heather: so entertained and like kind of feel drunk. We walked in, it's called Zero Bar. It's in Cabbagetown. Mm-hmm. On Carlton. It's. It's like a, I guess mostly a bottle shop. Mm-hmm. But also a small bar. Yeah. And Gail's there making your mocktails.
Yeah, it was great. And there's food in front too. There's Trinidadian food. Mm-hmm. Thursday to Sunday. Yeah. And we just like walked in. Gail [00:07:00] was amazing. And then immediately like started giving us, sending us non-alcoholic shots. Yeah. And booze, which I'm fine with. Yeah. How did you feel?
Zoe: Well, I don't think I've ever sipped a non-alcoholic vermouth.
Vermouth. I loved it. I was like, oh, wow. Yeah, we're drinking.
Heather: Mm-hmm.
Zoe: Yeah.
Heather: It feels like you're drinking.
Zoe: It does feel like you're drinking. So, like, not my fve. Mm-hmm. But I get the experience and it is nice for people who want that mm-hmm. Experience. I don't crave that.
Heather: Yeah.
Zoe: I was more into like the, the mocktails, the,
Heather: like the more soapies Yeah.
The, like the juice, the herbs, the like not decolonized, actual
Zoe: alcohol. Yeah. Or, yeah. I am. It was cool though, to like learn about that world. It is cool. And it is getting so big.
Heather: Well, you know what I found so interesting? Yeah. Gail was like saying like, this is like the biggest, we have the most and then there's like multiple little around around.
Yeah. [00:08:00] But I guess this one is the only one with a bar in it. Mm-hmm. Which I like the way that ga and, we'll, we'll have a, we'll have a little Kiki with Gale. Mm-hmm. We'll talk to Gail. But, um, Gail was talking to us about. They love vodka. Yeah. And that was like their drink. Yeah. Like alcohol, vodka, loved vodka.
Yeah. Had to get sober. I won't go into that, but still loves vodka. Yeah. And like wants to drink vodka, wants non-alcoholic vodka and all other alcohols. And I think, is it vodka the only one that they don't have? Yeah. Like they're still trying to like find one. Yeah. Honestly, they should just make one themselves.
I think it's harder than it. Like it's pretty hard to do that. Gail, where's vodka made? Is it rice? Potatoes.
Zoe: Potatoes?
Heather: Yeah. Rain, not rain. Corn
Zoe: is whiskey. Or they were saying that it's hard to import some of these things into Canada as well, so it could be like an importation issue. Yeah.
Heather: And now with the tariffs, I feel like [00:09:00] alcohol, I mean.
Non-alcoholic. Yeah. And alcoholic is the same price basically. Yeah. I feel like, but yeah, I wonder, I mean, they probably will just make their own eventually. 'cause I hope so. Gail's vodka.
Zoe: Gail's vodka,
Heather: you can drive, you know, we were sitting there having our, yeah, our drinks in our food. Food. And it's a sober place.
Yeah. There was, there was a, there's no alcohol
Zoe: there.
Heather: There's no alcohol. Yeah. There was a sober. Dinner happening. Yeah. With like some other creators. It was really cool. It was like an
Zoe: influencer sober dinner.
Heather: Yeah. Yeah. And which we should do a dinner there. 'cause that would be fun. I feel like Gail would love to make us all some cocktails of course, but.
The server. There was one server. Yeah. Came over to us and she was so cute and she did seem a little overwhelmed. Yeah. It was only her. Yeah. And
Zoe: it was busy,
Heather: busy night because we're surrounded by sober shit and non-alcoholic shit. I just assume everybody in that building is sober. Yeah. And I looked at her, she came over and I said, are you sober?
And [00:10:00] she was like taken aback. Mm-hmm. So caught off guard and she was like, um, yeah, I'm just tired. Yeah. And I was like, girl called her out. I was like, oh my God. I'm not asking you if you're currently on drugs. Yeah. I'm asking you if you're sober. Yeah. Because you work at a sober bar. Like it was so funny and I felt bad.
Zoe: Kinda. Yeah. Well, it's just like, it's interesting that that's where people go first. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Like that's not what you were saying at all. No, but that's where
Heather: she went first. And it's funny that like you're working at a sober bar and me asking you Yeah. Like, are you sober? You're not immediately like.
Yeah, I've been sober for three years. They're like, no, I'm not sober, but I work here. Like, I just assume, yeah, if you work at a skincare clinic, you probably like skincare. Yeah. You know? Well, she, she never even said if she was
Zoe: sober or not. I don't know. No, she
Heather: didn't.
Zoe: She didn't. So we still don't know. But that was triggering to me because that's exactly how I got fired from one of my jobs.
Right. Yeah.
Heather: Right. And you said that And I was like. I, it's fine. 'cause like [00:11:00] you shouldn't be drinking on the job. Yeah. And I, she probably wasn't. She was. No, and that's also not why I asked her. I just wanted to know if she was sober and then to tell us her trauma and her story. Exactly. We wanted
Zoe: to Kiki with her and she wasn't getting it.
She was, I think she was overwhelmed.
Heather: Yeah, for sure. But I, it got me thinking and my friend Sarah actually voice 'cause she voice messages me after every episode. Yeah. Thank you so much. It's lovely. Mm-hmm. And she was saying. You guys are so open about your sobriety. Mm-hmm. And what happened to you and your addictions.
She's like, but I wonder, like, do you have boundaries about it? Like if people just come up to you on the street and ask you about it? Or if like someone's, like if your boyfriend's dad asked you about it. Yeah. Are you cool to talk about it? Or are we just so open here because we're in this room? Also, how comfortable are we asking people about their sobriety and should we, we, should
Zoe: we?
Yeah. Well, I think that. We can ask, but mm-hmm. Not assume that they're gonna tell us everything. Yeah. And also, like I was saying, when that [00:12:00] girl, when I told that girl a couple weeks ago that I was sober, I didn't wanna get into the nitty gritty with her 'cause I had just met her and we were at a party.
Like I wasn't gonna tell her my life story there. Yeah. Then and there, there are so times I don't want to go into being like, yeah, I'm an alcoholic. Yeah. I go to meetings. Yeah. I'm a crazy person, you know? Because sometimes like if I, if I'm not in a good head space Yeah. And I go into that, I could potentially be hurting myself in a way.
Heather: Mm-hmm. So I
Zoe: think you have to always remember like, am I feeling good to talk about this right now? For me at least. What do you mean hurting yourself? Like going back into like. Place. Okay. Okay. If I'm not feeling good already and remembering all the shit that I used to do could be detrimental to myself.
I
Heather: see what you're saying. Yeah. Because when
Zoe: we walk into this room, yeah.
Heather: I
Zoe: feel totally safe here.
Heather: Yeah. And our intentions are set. Yeah. Like we're gonna be talking about. Mm-hmm. Addiction, trauma, everything that comes. Well, I remember
Zoe: the first couple episodes we did, like I got so fucking anxious after.
Yeah, me too. [00:13:00] Because I had never talked about sobriety in such length.
Heather: Yeah.
Zoe: That it was like, whew. That was a lot, you know? Yeah. Now I'm used to it with you, but
Heather: Yeah, now it's, well, it's like literally the only thing I talk about. I'm so boring. But you love talking about it
Zoe: in every scenario, I think.
Heather: I love it.
Yeah. Yeah. I, and I, and I think it's like whatever, it's part of my A DH ADHD or whatever's wrong with me, but I, I really am fixated on it. Mm-hmm. And I just am constantly amazed at people Yeah. And things that they go through. Yeah. And how they're sober and people who, people who have addiction in the family, but never had an addiction themselves.
I, I'm just so fascinated by everybody. And I also
Zoe: think that we come at it from people. In a different perspective because we are alcoholics ourselves. Like, it's not like we're judging or like Right. You know, like I think we're allowed to ask other people that because we're alcoholics ourselves and we're sober ourselves.
It'd be weird if someone else like was
Heather: Yeah.
Zoe: Trying to interrogate [00:14:00] a sober person like that. Yeah. You know, if someone was interrogating me and I didn't feel comfortable talking about it, I'd be like, yo, no.
Heather: Yeah. Right. Yeah. I, I do like to be the person in the room or in any new situation that's just like.
This is my trauma. Mm-hmm. Or like, or like one radical thing. Mm-hmm. And then I feel, and I think that's also what makes me super annoying, but like, absolutely not. But I think it, it, for me, I feel like I wanna make people comfy. Yeah. So I'm like, if I just say a weird fucking thing that I've done or like something sexual or something ridiculous.
Yeah. Then other people are like, okay,
Zoe: the tone has been set. This is a safe space. And now I can ex like tell my story if I want to. Yeah. And like, which is nice.
Heather: Yeah. And like you're probably never gonna shock me. Well some, some of you shock me actually. Some of you're very shocking, but I fucking love it.
But in a good way. It's so good. I just, yeah, it's one of my favorite things. I think you're right. I think like as addicts, like we can ask Yeah, I think I do make a [00:15:00] point usually too. Address the situation, be like, I'm an addict. Yeah. If it comes up, which it always comes up, but I, I think maybe a little bit of sensitivity to it because I, I, I do have friends that aren't super open about their addiction and their sobriety, which doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Me, yeah.
Zoe: Well, I also think that like if you're not open and like proud of your sobriety, then you're still like working on yourself. Hopefully like your goal is to be happy
Heather: about your sobriety. Yeah. You know, and it makes sense. I mean. Addiction is like shameful. Yeah. You know, societally. Yeah. Like it's not, but it feels really shameful.
Like addiction is a sickness, but it's like it's a thing you're doing. Yeah. So you feel like, I can't control it. I can't handle it. Mm-hmm. But yeah, maybe a little bit of sensitivity. I do the same thing with pregnant people. Anytime I see a pregnant person that I like, kind of know, I'm like, what's happening here?
What's going on? How's your vagina? Have you done the perennial massage? I have asked. Pregnant strangers. Mm-hmm. [00:16:00] If their partners have done the perennial massage, which is like fisting. No. It's like the muscles right inside your vagina are like really tight. Apparently you have a lot of knots in there, which makes sense if, but you have to massage it out so that when you give birth every.
It's like, makes it all easier. So I'm like asking pregnant strangers if they've had fingers massaging their vaginal knots and I just feel entitled to that information. Yeah. When people are pregnant, I'm like, oh, you're on display. What's happening? You know I'm obsessed. When you're pregnant.
Zoe: Yeah. You're gonna, you're gonna be all up in there.
Oh, well, you massage my knots.
Heather: Honestly, Zoe, I would.
Zoe: I know you would.
Heather: I would. There's not much, and that's a best friend. There's not much I wouldn't do for you. Like if you needed a suppository, I would put one in. It's good to know. Well, tell me, because I know you literally always have me, would you do anything gross for me?
If you had a tampon stuck up inside of you, I would take it out. Thank you so much. Okay. That is exactly an, [00:17:00] that's what you needed. Great answer. Yeah. Were you expecting for sobriety and this podcast to be so fucking polarizing? No. No.
Zoe: I guess I didn't think about how alcohol and. Not drinking is such a sensitive topic for some people.
Yeah. And I think it is just a sensitive topic because no one wants to look at their drinking like that. Mm-hmm. They just want to keep doing it and not. Think about how, yeah, it is poison and yeah, I am ruining my body and yeah, this isn't a good thing.
Heather: Yeah, it feels like, um, I wasn't expecting it to be so crazy, especially because, and actually maybe it's not, especially, we're not a health and wellness podcast.
No, we're not sober because we wanna be healthy and drink green juices and like, you know, optimize living. And I wonder if we were more of a health and wellness podcast and the point was health and wellness, if it would be less. No, [00:18:00] I don't. So I think it'd be
Zoe: even more. You think more hate? Yeah. I, um, I, but the people commenting on our shit, they don't know that we're alcoholics.
Heather: Well, sometimes they do though. Like some of the things, like we do use the word addict. Yeah. I know that I have friends that when I talk about sobriety or I've like been out or. With people who drink, there is an uncomfortable situation that happens. Yeah. Like there's, when I order a mocktail or a ginger ale and they drink, there is like a Yeah, and it does.
Sitting next to a sober person or hearing the word sobriety just makes you look inward. It just does. Well, like I
Zoe: said, when we were starting this podcast, like if I came across our eclipse and I was still drinking, yeah. I would be like, oh, fuck these girls. What do they know? Like literally, yeah, I know that I would be judging us if I was still drinking, so I totally get
Heather: it.
Oh my God. I used to say all the time. I used to be like, I would never date a sober person. I wouldn't even really be. Friends with a sober person. Yeah. That's fucking [00:19:00] weird. And like you're not having any fun. How are you supposed to what? Like go on dates? Exactly. Or go on vacation or get married or like have fun.
Like how are you? I didn't think it was possible. No. I also like. Thought that that was super fucking lame. Super lame. I agree. And especially if you'd like never drink, which by the way, I still am. Like, how does that happen? How does a person become born into this world and then you never drink? Or how?
Zoe: Yeah. Well, we should get, I know this guy who's never drank. Oh, straight edge. Great edge. Um, there was a boxer who. S like promoted himself as like being sober and like straight edge. And this guy that I know grew up like being inspired by this boxer, and he never drank because of that. Like he looked up to this guy.
Mm. And also he, there was addiction that ran into the family. Yeah. So he was scared to drink. So I think that's a part of it too. Like maybe my kids will never drink because they'll be terrified to drink [00:20:00] and that would be cool. Honestly,
Heather: I just don't. Think, I mean, I don't know if there was a, there was addiction in my family.
Mm-hmm. I just didn't know about it. Yeah. There was eating disorders in my family. I didn't really know. Yeah.
Zoe: I, I didn't know about the addiction that ran in my family. I think I knew a little bit of about it, but if I knew about it more, maybe it would be a different situation. I don't, if might. Dad was like a violent drunk.
Heather: Yeah. Or like a loser, like a deadbeat. And that was like super obvious that that was like the alcohol. But
Zoe: then maybe you would want to drink to like forget about your fucking life, you know? Well
Heather: that's the other thing too. Yeah. I wanna drink about everything all the time. Yeah. Like I didn't drink 'cause I was like had a terrible childhood.
I just drank 'cause I wanted to. Yeah. And I was depressed. But yeah, even when it came to. The health and wellness sphere, like when I was in college and like going through my eating disorders and going through alcohol and stuff like that. I would look at health and wellness like that girl Kayla from like sweat.
Mm-hmm. And just hate her. Yeah. Like I would never comment about it, but I would hate her. I'd be like, Ugh, [00:21:00] you don't drink. Yeah. Because you don't want to. Yeah. You. Your body's just like that. You're thin and healthy and you have a six pack just because that's the way you are. Mm-hmm. And I would hate that shit.
And then, so I would, I know what that feels like to feel like you're being attacked just based on someone else's presence. Well,
Zoe: and my friend, who I'm now really close with this girl, but I used to not like her when I was drinking because she didn't drink like I did. Right, right. And so it's like, it's totally flipped now.
Yeah. It's. People are not ready for it. But the fact that people are getting so upset about the stuff that we're saying means that we're doing something interesting. Yeah. To take the time out of someone's day and comment something mean or mm-hmm. Negative about what we're saying, that means that they are getting impacted by it.
Yeah. And they're thinking about what they're fucking doing, which is a step. Yeah. Maybe. I don't know. It is a step in like the right direction I think, you know, well, it,
Heather: it's, it was very [00:22:00] shocking at first, and I, it's very shocking. We had all six of us at the cottage were like talking about it on the dock and being like, are we right?
Are we wrong? Are we, and then, you know what? After that I was like, okay, getting sober. A lot of my sobriety. I have to be empathy first. Yeah, empathy first. Or I'm gonna hit you with my car. Yeah. Like I'm very quick to trigger. And so this belief of like everyone is doing the best with what they can at any given time.
Mm-hmm. I believe that. Yeah. And I think that if you go online and say something mean about us that has nothing to do with alcohol. Mm-hmm. Or if it does whatever. I really think that that's the best. That's, that is the forefront emotion. The forefront thing you wanted to do is like Yeah. Be mean to these two girls online for some sort of, well, yeah.
Emotional gain. It's just like they are hurt
Zoe: people too. Yeah. And. They're sick. Yeah. Is what it is. And like you have to like, I feel bad for them. Me's the only thing that we can like look at this from Yeah. Is like, [00:23:00] oh, I feel sorry for you. That you feel that way and, and I hope that you get better. Yeah.
You know,
Heather: and you're probably in the right place, honey.
Zoe: Yeah. Like, I'm glad that this came across your feed.
Heather: Yeah. And people being like, I am not. Responsible for my spouse's bad decisions with drinking. I'm like, I think there's a miseducation around drinking and I think that, yeah, I think that maybe you should listen to the pod.
Yeah.
Zoe: That maybe these like men who are commenting too are like. These girls are so pretty. What do they know? You know what guys? We're pretty and we're smart.
Heather: Yeah. And we were in the fucking gutter. Yeah. For years. Years. And you, when you go to the gutter, you know some things, you see some things we might
Zoe: not look like alcoholics or we might not look like we were in the gutter because like, we're so beautiful now, but trust we look like shit before.
Insert picture of Heather.
Heather: Please don't insert a picture of me. That is the only people who get those pictures are you. When I send them to you as stickers. I know, man. I haven't even showed the person [00:24:00] that I'm involved with. I don't think you have to. I don't think I should. Yeah. And you can't show your boyfriend. I say I haven't. I need him to think he, I need him to think I'm hot.
Zoe: Yeah. It's very interesting. I, we forget, right? Because we're sober now. We've, we've been sober for a while. Mm-hmm. And like this has been our life now for years. Yeah. I forget how drinking is, is the norm. Yeah. You know, like I forget that my friend yesterday, she was like, oh, like let me, we should go to the bathroom to take a shot to my other friend.
And I was like, why are you going to the bathroom to take a shot? Just take a shot. We're in the park. Oh yeah. And she was like. I just didn't wanna take it in front of you and I was like, it's fine. Like don't, yeah. Don't drink in the bathroom like you're doing drugs or something. Yeah. Also
Heather: just like ask me.
Yeah, just ask. Because I don't want you hiding your alcohol either. Yeah. Like that's not a good bar. That's weird. It's not good. Yeah. It's not helpful for anybody. Yeah. [00:25:00] I'm gonna think about alcohol as much or as little as I will if you're drinking. Yeah.
Zoe: It was just that. That was a really interesting thing that I know she was trying to do it.
Yeah. 'cause like she cares about me, but I'm like, yeah. You don't have to go to the bathroom to take a, it's kinda, yeah. It's actually kind of, it's sweet. It's, it's just
Heather: like now we're overcompensating. Yeah, exactly. I like it. Also, I love, oh God, I love to take shots
Zoe: at the park. Fuck. Yeah. It looked fun.
Heather: Yeah.
But you know what? I honestly love more than that. I love to get home and get into my bed. Bed and drift off calmly with none of that. Yeah. Stuff going on. It's nice. Yeah. You know what I'm talking about. Yeah. Yeah. Do you at all think that. The, that the sobriety of it mm-hmm. Is more triggering than. The addiction of it.
What I mean is like hearing the word sobriety. Yeah. Do you think that's more triggering to people than addiction?
Zoe: I think so. If we were just like talking about being alcoholics [00:26:00] and how we drink so much, I think people would kind of love that. Yeah. You know, I think the fact that we overcame this mm-hmm.
And that we're sober now is the part that's triggering for these people. That's a good point. 'cause they're like, oh my god. I don't wanna think that this is possible. Yeah. 'cause I'm not ready to do this yet.
Heather: Well, and what you just said of like, this is a thing we overcame. Yeah. I think that piece of like, this is a thing that people have to overcome.
Yeah. Because it's inherently detrimental. Mm-hmm. That's hard for people. Yeah. You know what it seemed like to me when we were getting bombarded, it felt very much like I said. We should have gun reform. Yeah. And everyone was like, they're gonna take our guns. And you're like, whoa. I literally just don't want, well, I think it's like they felt like they're gonna take our alcohol away.
Yeah. I'm like, I just don't want school shootings. We don't give a fuck. Yeah. If, if we're not gonna take your alcohol. We're women, we can't do anything. It's like you, like, I mean, for like a conglomerate like that. Mm-hmm. No. Yeah. We just want people to get sober if they need to.
Zoe: If they need to, if they're looking for a [00:27:00] place to come.
Mm-hmm. To feel like mm-hmm. They belong and to feel like they can relate to someone finally, because no one is talking about this shit. Mm-hmm. You know, like hang out with us. I also wonder, he's over with
Heather: us, the addiction piece of it. We know addiction. Most of us know addiction to be like, you know, meth on the street, on the street, no teeth really not doing well.
Very specific vibe going on. Yeah.
Zoe: And the fact that you can be like alcoholics, addicts. Be like. We come from great families. Mm-hmm. And nothing was inherently wrong with us. No. But it can happen to anyone. And I think that's also what might scare people too. Like, oh, I didn't think I was an alcoholic because I am such a good person from a great household.
Yeah. I just drink a little bit too much, but that doesn't mean I'm an alcoholic.
Heather: Yeah. And then I wonder if the shame with fat is even more because like, I think so I, I definitely. Felt like I [00:28:00] had to justify being an alcoholic. Mm-hmm. Even when I went to
Zoe: rehab. Yeah. Same. I was like, oh, I'm not as bad as everyone else here.
Like, I don't belong here.
Heather: Yeah. Even like when I went, my counselor was like, when I first met him, and he was like, how much are you drinking? And I was like, oh, I'm drinking all day every day. Mm-hmm. And he's like all day, like, yeah. Even in the morning. And I, I was like, well. No. I mean, I start Yes. In the morning, like I felt like, I felt like I had to craft my addiction.
Yeah. Which is delusional. If you feel like you have to craft your addiction to make a story, you're an addict to go to rehab. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But I did feel like I had to justify it. If someone came in and they were like, oh. Like my rehab boyfriend. It's like you had a terrible life growing up. Mm-hmm.
Like I would drink too. Yeah. You know, I didn't have that. So it doesn't feel, that doesn't mean
Zoe: that you're a better alcoholic than another person. Well, it also
Heather: doesn't mean that you're not gonna become an alcoholic. Yeah. It's just like, I felt the shame of like, oh fuck, why am I an addict? Yeah. This person [00:29:00] has been through.
Abuse. Yeah. And bullshit and poverty. So that makes sense. I haven't, so what the fuck is wrong with my privileged ass where I had to go and get fucked up all the time and couldn't stop. Like, there is a shame in that. Mm-hmm. You know, but addiction just really doesn't discriminate.
Zoe: It doesn't, it can happen to anybody.
And I think that's another reason why these people are getting upset in the comments because I guess, I guess maybe they're scared that it has happened to them, but they don't wanna look at it. Yeah.
Heather: Yeah. And I think taking things away from anybody or like yeah. You know, offering a tool of a potential way to make your life better by, by means of taking away alcohol is so, I don't know.
It just, it's obviously
Zoe: so jarring. Well, it would be jarring to me too, like if I was still in it. So like I totally get it. I get why you're. Why it's getting rage out of you. Yeah. You know, like I totally, I I would've been there.
Heather: Honestly, though, get
Zoe: your
Heather: fucking rage out. Get
Zoe: your
Heather: rage out. Get your rage
Zoe: [00:30:00] out.
Comment, call us whatever you want. Yeah. In the comments, you know, like, honestly, we, we can handle it. We're sober. We can
Heather: handle anything. Someone was asking me, Emma, yeah. Was asking me friend of the pod, um, if like, you know, comments, appearance based bother me. Mm-hmm. And I'm like, well, I haven't had one.
Personally, but I was like, you know what? Trying to put myself in that situation. I'm like, yeah, I probably should be upset. But I also know myself so deeply. Yeah. I hate, hated myself and my body. Yeah. And I was meaner to myself than anybody else. Yeah. And anybody I genuinely think anyone could be. Mm-hmm.
Like if you sat here for 12 hours and said the meanest fucking things to me, I think I'd be like. Heard it babe. Heard it, babe. Next. Yeah. Like I used to look at myself in the mirror and be like, honestly, fuck you. You should kill yourself. I don't know why you're still here. And also you're a loser. Yeah.
Because you can't fucking kill yourself because you're not courageous.
Zoe: Crazy.
Heather: So.
Zoe: I don't think I [00:31:00] ever like looked at myself like I was ugly or I think I just hated who I was inside more.
Heather: Yeah.
Zoe: I didn't really care about the external as much. Yeah. Um, but yeah, we've got some comments calling me a three, but there was one, there was one meaner comment than that.
Did you delete it? I deleted it. Okay. 'cause I don't, I don't know what it even said. Like, I don't remember what it said. Okay. I read it once and I was like, that is way too fucking mean. I can't, I don't want this just randomly in the comment section. Yeah. Like, it was just that mean that I didn't even wanna reread it ever again.
Yeah. I didn't want it in my head. I just deleted it like nothing fucking happened. Good. And yeah, I couldn't tell you what it said, but it was just like meaner than,
Heather: yeah.
Zoe: I needed to see.
Heather: Well, yeah, and I think we were talking about that too, like are we gonna be people who delete comments and it's like, okay, this is a sobriety, sobriety mental health podcast.
I want anybody listening to this Yeah. Or [00:32:00] coming to our page to feel safe enough. Yeah. To comment or post or like, or something. Yeah. And, and you can disagree with us, that's fine. But like, I think there's a certain
Zoe: line where it's like, if you're being that mean I don't want it, I'm gonna delete it.
Heather: And I don't want sober people coming to our page and looking at it and seeing mean
Zoe: shit.
Yeah. Oh, that's like hate. That's too much.
Heather: Yeah. What if they say, oh, love this. Or like, oh, I relate to this. Are you gonna get like, you know, tiny Tim being like, yeah, but you're a fat bitch. Yeah. And you're like, go back to the gut. Are you fat bitch? I know. And I'm like. Who invited Tim? Literally get Tim outta the comments.
Well, there was a guy that commented something mean on Instagram, and I went to his profile and he's in Narcotics Anonymous. He's a weird man. And I was like, homie, homie, you're a junkie. Yeah, you're one of us.
Zoe: It's weird. I don't think he, I don't think a lot of people like seeing pretty girls talk about being sober.
I think that's another part of it. Like if we were like maybe like. Below [00:33:00] average woman. Yeah. And maybe it would be different as well.
Heather: Well, yeah, I think just like talking about this subject, I'm so surprised at how Pull, I knew it was gonna be a little bit polarizing, but I didn't know we were gonna hit the Incel community so hard.
Zoe: I mean, it's a good thing that. This is happening. Yeah. It means that it means that we're doing something right. And also like all the good messages that we've been getting, like people being like, I am this many days sober. Oh my God. I'm just, I like am looking. I'm looking up to you guys. I relate to you guys.
You guys like are amazing. Whatever. Keep doing what you're doing. That is so special. And I would get like, you can call me whatever the fuck you want. As long as those people are reaching out to us. Yeah. Like that's all that matters
Heather: if like. Zoe and I were in trash. We were literally living in a trash bin.
And you, I was sleeping in my own pee every single night. That's
Zoe: exactly right.
Heather: And every single night I was sleeping in
Zoe: my own pee.
Heather: Yeah. And I was mostly sleeping on the bathroom floor, just throwing up all over the porcelain.
Zoe: You're sleeping, you are. You're sleeping in your throw up. And I was sleeping in my pee.[00:34:00]
Gorgeous girls. And now you're sober and amazing.
Heather: Take that. I watched this YouTube channel. Actually, I think it's like really controversial now. I think the Mark Lada or whatever, the host of it, I think that he might be not great, but that's not the point. Basically he is in on Skid Row and he talks to, he like brings people in for interviews.
Like, I
Zoe: don't like that. I don't like that. I've seen those things on TikTok before. Okay. I don't like when people are interviewing someone fucked up. Okay. 'cause that doesn't seem like they have
Heather: autonomy.
Zoe: Autonomy over what they're saying. 'cause they're fucked up.
Heather: Consent.
Zoe: Consent is off out the window. Same with like our, when did we give consent?
When we were fucked up to get, have sex? No. No. If you're that fucked up, that's not consent. There's no line.
Heather: And I guess like the point is to like show the world what's happening and like that addiction is real and poverty is real and that, but it's like putting them [00:35:00] down. It's like exploit, exploitive.
It's low. You're,
Zoe: the lens is down on these people and it shouldn't be like, yeah. That could happen to anybody. That could have happened to us. Like that doesn't mean that we're better or worse than these people.
Heather: No. And I'm wondering, is there a better way? Like is there, would there be a better way, should we not do it at all?
I think we should be interviewing
Zoe: people that were on Skid Row. Yeah. That are sober now. Yeah. Like there's lots of people who make it out of that, that are sober. Yeah. It's not, just because you're on Skid Row doesn't mean you're on skid row forever. There's a lot of people I know a lot of people who lived on the street who are sober now a lot.
Heather: Yeah, I do think like, and and, and maybe it's not right. Maybe it's not autonomous and consensual. That's probably very true. Not everybody gets sober. Yeah. That's not the trajectory for everyone. That's not everyone's not everyone. I know. It's like it's not everyone's goal. No, no. But it's also like, I know he's like, if you wanna get sober, you can get sober.
Yeah. It's not that black and white because like my dad says stuff like that too. Just like, get 'em cleaned up, take 'em off the street, and you're like, right, but that's not. Possible. Yeah, [00:36:00] it's not possible. So maybe it is important to, I think
Zoe: anyone can get sober if you're on the street or not. If you want, if you truly want it, yeah, you can get it.
Mm-hmm. But I just don't think that that clicks in for some people. Yeah. And that's the unfortunate part of like when people die, like it just didn't click for them. And that is sad.
Heather: It wouldn't click for me if I was on the street either. Like it was not, it wasn't. It could. It could have, but it, it wasn't clicking for me when I was living in my like, beautiful apartment.
Yeah. I, I think it's really hard, and I just think those stories are important. It's like drugs and alcohol hit us all very different, and some people are trapped in it forever and it seems like they can't get out and it's like, not because they're lazy or because they're stupid or because of whatever.
It's just a thing that happened to them for whatever reason. Yeah, if you can get out, get out. But if you can't, that's true too. Yeah. And valid. Yeah. You know.
Zoe: Yeah. I don't know. It seems like that just shouldn't be the type of people that we should be [00:37:00] interviewing. Sure. Like I do see some interviews on TikTok of people interviewing people who are sober.
Mm-hmm. And were like crazy. Yeah. Before and like that's the type of inspiring videos I would rather see than. Seeing a person strung out on drugs. Totally. Talking about getting raped, you know?
Heather: Yeah. Sex workers, like underage sex workers. Mm-hmm. I always find that one. I know. I'm like, Ooh, what's happening?
Zoe: That's, can we not be exploiting these people? Please.
Heather: Yeah. It's, um, it, it's interesting 'cause I also, I think that it is a little bit more of a, and I don't wanna use this word out of turn, but it feels a little fetishy mm-hmm. To like watch these stories. And it's just sadness. Yeah. It's like just drugs.
It's the bottom of the barrel. It's like the worst thing that can happen to a person. Really? Mm-hmm. And there's not often follow through. No. It's not like, like he's going back and being like, oh, now this person is sober. Like that's not the point. The point is just to be like everyday people. Everyday lives.
Yeah. But I think we see a lot of addiction and we've known what addiction is.
Zoe: We don't see a lot of sobriety.
Heather: Yeah. Yeah. [00:38:00] We don't see a lot of. People talking about what happened to them. Yeah. And now we're sober and chatting about being sober. I agree. I think people are attracted to the down dirty addiction because they are, especially fentanyl and meth because a lot of people aren't doing that.
Yeah. They're just drinking or they're just doing weed or just doing coke
Zoe: for
Heather: now, and it feels so separate from them. Yeah. So I think that addiction. Is easier to digest for people than sobriety. Yeah. Because sobriety, it's like, oh fuck. Now they've, now they're out on the other side and they're better than me.
Yeah. Shit. I a hundred percent agree. Yeah. I do think they should stop. I do think so too. Someone said that on one of his YouTube or one of his like Instagrams or something, it was like, this person is like straight up exploiting people. Yeah. And they're. Young girls coming in on drugs like this is crazy.
Yeah. But what there's, you do, there's gotta be a better way. Like
Zoe: I think the better way is
Heather: to be interviewing people who got sober. Oh, sorry. In terms of interviews. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just mean like of Skid Row and Queen Street and it's, [00:39:00] it's very interesting. I think it's really easy to other addicts.
Yeah. Except when you forget that a dependency on alcohol is also an addiction. Yeah. People forget.
Zoe: There's so many smaller addictions that are out there. It doesn't have to be like crack heads on the street.
Heather: No. And speaking of which, what is the line between like casual drinking and a dependency and addiction?
Mm-hmm. Because you sent me something interesting yesterday. Yeah. About the big book. Actually I have it. The big book of
Zoe: Alcoholics Anonymous. Yeah. So the big, we always talk about like the type one addict, the type two addict, and the type three addict. Got it. Yeah. And yeah. Like what the first one is just someone who can drink casually.
Moderate drinkers, these individuals can take or leave alcohol or quit entirely if they choose hard drinkers. These drinkers may experience some physical and mental impairment and potentially develop a physical dependence, but still re retain [00:40:00] some control over their drinking. Mm-hmm. Alcoholics according to aa, alcoholics have no real choice when it comes to drinking.
Once they start, they experience a loss of control and require a complete abstinence for recovery. The big book highlights that Alcoholics mind is obsessed with alcohol and their body reacts with a craving. When they can't, they can't control.
Heather: Mm. Those are the three branches of. Drinking. Yeah.
Zoe: In aa. I think a lot of people, like when they come into the program mm-hmm.
Of like a, a CA, whatever. They hope that they're the hard drinkers. The middle one. Yeah, the middle one. Yeah. They're like, yeah, I drinks too much, but I can quit. I can quit if I want to. Yeah. And then they go out and they keep drinking and they're like, ah. I think I'm still a hard drinker though. I don't think I'm a real alcoholic.
Heather: Yeah.
Zoe: And it takes him a couple times to come and admit. To themselves because the first step of AA is admitting that you are powerless over alcohol.
Heather: Mm-hmm.
Zoe: Um. It takes 'em a little bit to admit that they are real alcoholic. I'm fortunate enough to have gone to rehab [00:41:00] and I got to figure that out in rehab.
Yeah. Instead of going in and out, in and out. In and out.
Heather: Yeah.
Zoe: Yeah,
Heather: yeah. Rehab's so good for that. Yeah. It's like a bunch of people telling you like, you have a problem. These are all the reasons that you should be here. You don't have to play that game with yourself of like, do I have a problem? Can I still drink?
They're like, no, you're gonna go to jail. Yeah. Um, I feel like it's funny to look at this and be like, moderate drinkers. Can take or leave alcohol. I'm like, yeah, okay. So that was me freshman year of college. Mm-hmm. Because my eating disorder was so bad that alcohol was just not top of mind. Yeah. And then I moved into hard drinking after my eating disorder stopped.
Mm-hmm. And then it's like, it just keeps going. Yeah. And I think I just jumped in alcoholic. Yeah, I totally did. I think you did too, because there was, I think like. The fear. Ba The fear, yeah. That's something you're missing. Yeah. Also, I realize I do that when I talk, I go, it's like it's cute. What I learned in rehab, which I don't take, I didn't take away, is like my counselor would be like, why are you answering [00:42:00] questions if you don't know the answer?
I was like, I don't know. I, I've been, I don't know. He like asked me a question, like, how are you feeling? And I was like, oh, you know, da. He's like, why don't you like take five seconds, breathe and think about what you're, what you're gonna gonna say. Because I would just, and I do that still, where I'll just like have a point and I start talking about it and I go.
I don't know what we're doing with that, where that totally fine babe. But it is like, I do need to think a little bit, but I do. Um,
Zoe: yeah, but I think that, um, what was I
Heather: saying before? If you
Zoe: think that you're an alcoholic, you're an alcoholic. That's like my thought around that. Mm-hmm. It's like if you're questioning it, then like you are, and like you should just.
Stop. Yeah, everything. And like save yourself the in and out. Save yourself the trying of control. 'cause you can't, you can't do it. Yeah. I knew someone too that was like in and out of meetings. Mm-hmm. And I think they were even sober for a bit. And um, [00:43:00] they went to rehab. Even though they were two months sober, they went to like get the full experience.
Oh
Heather: my god. I know. So like, if you're sober, you can go to rehab still. Well, I think about it sometimes like. Because we know as addicts that, um, and we know from rehab, I don't know what you, what you do in aa, but um, we know like relapse behavior. Yeah. Addictive behavior that comes before the actual physical relapse of like taking a substance.
Mm-hmm. So like you're isolating or you're irritated, or you're not going to therapy or you're just, things are changing and you're not doing the work. Mm-hmm. You jumped into hard drinking. Yeah. The fear. I didn't, I had so much fear. I think it's 'cause your parents made you fearful. Yeah, they did. They told us that we were allergic and I was already a hypochondriac.
I was already OCD. I was flicking the light switch all the time. I was like. Thinking I was dying always. Mm-hmm. That held me back from jumping full in. If I had thought, if I didn't have that fear, I would've drank with my friends earlier. 'cause my friends were drinking around me. I [00:44:00] was afraid. Yeah. So that is, I think, the thing that held, held me back and I went through all of these.
Mm-hmm. If I had just started hard drinking, maybe I wouldn't have gone through the eating disorder. We could have skipped right over that probably, but then I probably would've been as big as the house
Zoe: earlier. Um, I don't know. You could have been like in. A bad eating disorder and drinking, and that could have been crazy.
Heather: The line between like casual drinking, binge drinking, full dependency, full addiction. Yeah, I think there's some. Confusion. And I have some confusion too, because when I meet people who just like drank too much and then they're like, and now I don't drink anymore. Mm-hmm. And that's the story. I'm like, where's the trauma?
Zoe: Where is the thing? Well, that's like the hard drinker, right? Yeah. That's like not the true alcoholic. Okay. Explain that to me. The hard drinker can stop.
Heather: Mm-hmm.
Zoe: When they need to.
Heather: Okay.
Zoe: Like fully stop. Yeah. Okay. The alcoholic cannot.
Heather: Well, 'cause I wonder about the people that are like, [00:45:00] oh, I have to crack a beer at the end of a work day.
Yeah. I have to have a glass of wine at the end of a day. You are not. You're a hard drinker. You're a hard drinker. You're a drinker. You're dependent on it. Yeah. You're not an our situation where you're going out and fucking fucking up your life if
Zoe: you're not fucking up your life. Yeah. Like you don't need to stop because there's not nothing to stop for.
You know what I mean?
Heather: Yeah. But I mean. But in that same vein though, you're not in our situation, but you should still look at your relationship with alcohol because Yes. If you need to do something at the end of the day, yeah. That involves, you know, changing your brain and taking yourself out of your body.
Mm-hmm. For a little bit and numbing some stuff. You have a dependency on it. That's part of the spectrum. Yeah, a hundred
Zoe: percent. It is. But like they don't want to stop that. No. And they think that they don't have to stop that. Yeah.
Heather: Yeah. And you might not have to. I mean, not everybody has to, but mm-hmm. I think that the idea that having a two, a couple glasses of wine every single night, and that's just [00:46:00] normal.
I think maybe that's not normal. And I think a lot of people have a dependency and they're not. Realizing it. Yeah. Well, and
Zoe: that's another thing that we're trying to like break. Mm-hmm. Like the norm is not drinking every single day. Yeah. At the end of the workday. It's just, it's not, yeah. The norm is not taking a traveler for a walk, you know?
Right. That's not the norm.
Heather: When I got sober, I would go out with people, my friends or guys or whatever. Well, guys are still drinking, but my friends and they wouldn't drink. Mm. And I would, and they're not sober. And I would be like, guys, like, it's okay. Yeah. You can drink. And um, one of my friends was like.
No, we don't need to drink. Yeah. We don't need to go to dinner and have a drink. Yeah. And that confused the fuck outta me. Yeah. 'cause I was like, wait, what? Yeah. Isn't everybody drinking all the time? Yeah. Like I feel like going out with your friends to dinner is an excuse to drink. Not in your house, but I guess people have different operating systems and they're like, we don't drink every night.
I'm like. And
Zoe: that's where we differ
Heather: and that
Zoe: is where we differ. And that's confusing to me. Yeah. Well my friends drink [00:47:00] every dinner.
Heather: Yeah.
Zoe: So we have different friends. And that's hard drinkers. And you have moderate friend drinkers? I have moderate friend drinkers.
Heather: Well, yeah. 'cause some of my friends drank really hard with me.
Yeah. But then I stopped. But it's because
Zoe: you were forcing them to drink.
Heather: Yeah. And like one of my friends is like now like pregnant and married and doesn't drink like that. And I'm like. And that's
Zoe: what normal people do. Right? Normal people drink a lot when they're young. Yeah. And then they get married and they stop drinking.
Heather: But I don't get that. Yeah. I don't get that. I don't get how alcohol, and I guess that's the addiction, but it, like, it takes some people. So why are me and Jody drinking the same amount in college? Mm-hmm. And now you're married with a kid and you're fine to have a, a glass of wine every now and then. And I'm like, where is the vodka?
I'm going in the closet. Yeah. To wrap this up.
Zoe: To wrap it up,
Heather: ladies and gentlemen,
Zoe: I think, don't comment on my appearance. Appearance,
Heather: yeah. Because then my boyfriend sends her sneaky little text messages without me knowing about how beautiful and sexy she is. And then I [00:48:00] go, he said, I know you know you're a 10, but did he say that?
Aw, he said that.
Zoe: So sweet. That's nice. Yeah.
Heather: That's really nice. Mm-hmm. He's trying to fuck my friends. Um, uh, okay. We did have a big week with social media, um, which I'm glad you're feeling fine about it now.
Zoe: Yeah, no, I'm feeling fine. It was just like jarring. I didn't, we didn't expect it, but like obviously we should have, um, I was talking to a lot of my friends about it and they're like, yeah, but like, you're doing something right.
Like people only comment mean things if you're doing something right. Yeah. Engagement is good. Engagement, like knowing how many people. We are affecting in a good way as well. Like is amazing and
Heather: yeah, I agree. I wouldn't
Zoe: change it for the world. No. Oh my God, I'm so happy we're doing it together.
Heather: I know. I love you.
I love you. I'm so glad we're friends. Same. What would we, what about I? You'd be fine. What would I do?
Zoe: No, [00:49:00] like literally, why did it take us so long to be such close friends? I was a big girl and I was afraid to go outside. Yeah. And I'm so proud of you for getting outside and being my friend.
Heather: Yeah. The comments keep commenting, keep coming, you know, you're just just exposed to us.
Your mental illnesses. Yeah. And your anger issues. All of that is all part of sobriety. However, overwhelmingly the comments were from men. Yeah. That is clear. And um, that's okay. The thing about that. After all the bullshit and all the mean things and all the like calming ourselves down. Think what it shows me if we're really gonna put our empathy hats on, is that men are suffering in silence.
Yeah. On the internet, but suffering in silence. I think that just the polarization of this [00:50:00] topic and this conversation. I, I, I, I think resistance comes from not being able to express your feelings around it.
Zoe: It's just such like a common thing, like men don't talk about their problems. Yeah. And men have a beer every single night.
It's the stereotype and it is true. It's true.
Heather: And I know, like I, you know, like I, my whole moral anger is that I hate men. Mm-hmm. Like I don't hate all men, whatever, but. It's not true. I don't hate all men. I do, but this, but
Zoe: these men commenting make me believe it again. Yeah, yeah. But these men, but it's also like coming back to it, they're just hurt men.
Yeah. And yeah, it sucks because they can't talk about it with anybody else. And so they're taking it out on us. That's what they do. And they probably take it out on their girlfriends and their wives as well.
Heather: Yeah.
Zoe: So it's like, yeah. It's just like that's life and. If you're a man, talk about it with another man.
Be
Heather: Yeah, but I think, but that's like [00:51:00] the system we've set up for men, right? Like women. Yes. Like men are like the, you know, they're the, the leading power. But women have this like really amazing privilege that is friendship and female friendships and like overwhelmingly women are able to express themselves to each other.
More so than men, but we train that. Mm-hmm. Men are not allowed to cry or say their feelings or they're gay. Yeah. And like what's worse than being gay? Being a pussy or being
Zoe: a girl. But I also think that now with this new generation, it won't be like that. Yeah. Like these are. People that are commenting are the last generation that will be like that.
I think maybe that's what I would hope. I mean, well a lot of them, like I'm sure the people having babies in, but fuck nowhere aren't instilling that on their baby, like on their kids. Well,
Heather: and I think that's where we start to get a little confused. Too often I think that everybody thinks like me. Yeah.
Like I just am like we're all learning together. We're all growing together. But even in the [00:52:00] city, it's like the idea of sobriety and mocktails. Abstinence from drinking it, it makes more sense in this like metropolitan place. Yeah. But if you're a six pack after work kind of person who doesn't live in the city and you can't just like walk to seven 11, like it's just not as normalized.
Yeah. So I don't know. I actually don't know. I would like to think that stereotypes of men and women will be more muddled and will be less. Again, polarizing. Mm-hmm. With the next generation. But I don't really know. I would hope, and I would also hope that that would mean that more men are able to go to therapy and ask for therapy.
Yeah. Ask for help, you know, because, um, it creates rage.
Zoe: Yeah. And it makes sense like. The men in our comments like, yeah, it makes sense why mm-hmm. They can't talk to anybody about it. Yeah. You know? And it makes sense why a lot of these white men are rageful and abusive. Yeah. Like we [00:53:00] see it in our comments now.
Like, we understand it,
Heather: we see it. We also were, it, yeah. We were like super aggressive and mean and like to ourselves or like internal thoughts. Yeah. Like very hateful. I was very hateful towards my boyfriends. Very hateful. Yeah. Oh my god. To everything. Yeah. And I, I, I get it. And honestly like we see you.
Yeah. Like.
Zoe: I was there. Don't worry like it. It's nothing to be ashamed of as long as you recognize it and want to move forward.
Heather: Yeah. We get it. Sometimes being mean to girls on the internet is like all, you have to feel powerful. Yeah. And it's just what you need to do in the moment. Yeah. So we get it. We see you.
Do you think that drinking, like being sober for men, do you think that challenges like societal norms, like male norms. Of course, yeah. In my opinion. When I see someone, like my person I'm with and your person, it's like they're sober and I'm like, that's so fucking hot.
Zoe: Maybe it is, [00:54:00] but like to them I'm sure it wasn't like that.
Like they had to like grow into that, you know? Yeah. So to
Heather: me that feels like it's coming from the men
Zoe: that Yeah, it is. Well, a lot of stuff that we internally comes from other women thinking that the men don't, the men don't want someone to be like, stick thin, you know? Yeah. That's what we internalize on ourselves as other women.
That's true. That the men are the same.
Heather: Yeah. Yeah, because I, I saw, I saw something about like, how, like it's our, you know, it's our right. We don't have to stop, like, and I'm just like, I wonder if it feels extra, extra shameful for men. It's like, this is your thing. You're supposed to be able to do drink.
Well, I think it also,
Zoe: it felt extra bad for me too, because I was like, I am supposed to be the girl who goes out and has the life of the party. Mm-hmm. Like that's my whole shtick. Yeah. As a woman.
Heather: Yeah.
Zoe: Like I am. I don't have anything else. Yeah. It's like an
Heather: identity thing.
Zoe: Yeah. And you're supposed to be able to go out and have fun as girls too, because you're supposed to be able to like, take a shot with your man.
Yeah. [00:55:00]
Heather: Well you're, it's the same thing. You're supposed to be able to handle your alcohol. Yeah. And when men can't, even though it's more widely s. Acceptable for men to be addicts. Yeah. I mean, there's way more men Yeah. In AA than there are women. Yeah. There's way more men's groups and there are women's groups.
Men are overwhelmingly struggling with addiction and mental health. Yeah. More so than women. Women just have the ability to talk about it. Yeah. And I, I, I think that's very interesting and I think it's hot when guys are sober. Duh. So it's not like a weak thing. No, it's, it's evolved. I see
Zoe: it as a strength.
Men or women. Yeah, whatever you are. Yeah. If you're sober, you're so fucking strong. Yeah. You came over that overcame that. It's amazing. And it's hard to think that before you get sober, you think that you're weak and that you have to get sober because you're weak and it's the complete opposite. You can get through it.
Heather: Yeah. And then you can have like late night conversations sober with your girlfriend and your dick gets hard. Yeah, it's nice. [00:56:00] It's nice. Okay. Well. I'm proud of you. I'm proud of you. Stay
Zoe: sober. Bye
Heather: bye.
Thanks for listening to Girl Undrunk. You can follow us on Instagram and TikTok at Girl Undrunk podcast and or send me an email at heather@girlundrunk.com. I have this fantasy that the guy that works at the boxing gym is gonna like watch me practicing my upper cuts and come over to me and be like. I, I could take you all the way.
Ooh. I keep having that, that, that, that white guy like a dream. Yeah. I'm like, what? Like I just have this fucking feeling in the same way. Yeah. That when I walk by the, the, the lesbian flag football. Yeah. I just, I'm hoping that someone throws, throws that they recruit you. Yeah. Like, I'm like, someone throw a rogue ball, I'm gonna catch it and then you're gonna make it fingertips up.
Hands open, cradle. I'm gonna catch it. And they're gonna be like, are you, you're a star. Yeah. And they're gonna be like, are you gay? And I'm gonna say. I'm [00:57:00] bisexual.
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