#12: I'm Not a Snitch...But I'm Doing It Now.

In this episode, Zoe and Heather talk about Mary Lou Retton's DUI and what it reveals about aging and public sobriety. They break down the OHL sexual assault trial—how hockey culture protects violent men and why women still aren't believed. Plus, what it's like to be sober in places like Nashville, where drinking is the norm.

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I'm Not a Snitch...But I'm Doing It Now

Heather: [00:00:00] This podcast covers sensitive topics that may be difficult for some listeners. Please take care while listening. This is recording. Okay. DJ was like, honestly Heather, it takes people years to set this shit up. So good for you guys. 

Zoe: No, seriously. We're doing good. Like 

Heather: yeah, we're doing really good. Okay. And this one is now recording.

Great. 

Zoe: DJ is our biggest hype man. 

Heather: I know. He's so fucking nice. I mark.

Nice. But you know, just a, can I try that? Yeah, of course. Yeah, of course. You can have the first sip though. Fuck yeah. I've got, no, I good. Love it. Drink of the summer. Drink 

Zoe: of the 

Heather: summer. Sponsor us. Am I super zoomed in? No, I 

Zoe: think it's okay. Okay, [00:01:00] we got the timer on. I'll put it to 27. 27. Perfect. 

Heather: Okay. I took a 20 minute power nap yesterday and it felt 

Zoe: really 

Heather: good.

Zoe: I took a an hour power nap before I went out on Friday. Does 

Heather: that make you nauseous or does it

Zoe: Yeah, I took a an hour power nap before I went out on Friday, and it makes me like I love a nap. Yeah. I can do anything if I have a nap first. 

Heather: No, I don't really like a nap, but the other day I was like, what is this power nap situation about? So I do, I feel, do I sound crazy? 

Zoe: It does sound a little bit different.

Is it? I don't know. It doesn't look different. It doesn't 

Heather: look, I think it's just like, wait, let me, it might just be.[00:02:00] 

We are back. Hi everyone. Welcome back to Girl Un Drunk. I'm Heather. And I'm Zoe. And as you can see, we're on video. Hi guys. We are we pretty? Are we pretty? Can you give us validation please? Yeah. Comment, like, subscribe, 

Zoe: and 

Heather: then text 

Zoe: us. 

Heather: Comment. 

Zoe: I can subscribe. Who's prettier? 

Heather: I actually don't do that. No, I can't know that.

I can't know that at all. I, I'll sabotage your video. Um, okay. So, hi Zoe. How you doing? You, I missed you too. I've like seen you all week. I haven't seen you all week. I don't know what I've been doing. I've been in here. Well, I mean, I guess that's a good way to start it off. How are you? How's your mental health?

What's been going on? 

Zoe: I've been good. I took a lot of time to rest this week. Okay. Which was amazing. I didn't go out. Wednesday or Thursday after work, which was really nice for me. 'cause [00:03:00] usually I'm like doing stuff after work. So it was really nice to just like go home and chill. 

Heather: Yeah. 

Zoe: And I think I really needed that.

'cause I also got my period this weekend, so it was a little bit crazy those couple days. Yeah. I was actually being very moody to my boyfriend. Mm-hmm. And it was interesting for him to just see that, I guess he was just being really sweet the whole time. And then I was like, why am I still angry? Yeah.

You're being so sweet. Was this the first time you were like in a mood around him? I wasn't around him. Like we just FaceTime every single night. 

Heather: Yeah. And it's 

Zoe: so much a part of my routine now that I like it. 

Heather: Yeah. I feel 

Zoe: like it was weird at first to FaceTime someone every single night, but now I like it.

It's 

Heather: nice. It's nice. It's nice to like end your day. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I, I was in a mood, I was in a real mood this weekend. I was just like off my game and I was around somebody that I was in a mood. With for the first time. And I was like, oh, this is so frustrating. Like, I hate this version of myself, but it's like I, it's okay, but I feel 

Zoe: like if I'm in a mood, I feel like my [00:04:00] partner or my friend, whoever I'm with, needs to like level it up Yeah.

To bring me out. 

Heather: Yeah. 

Zoe: And that's exactly what my boyfriend did. But there's some people that just like bring, have to bring you more down. Yeah. When you're in a mood, you know what I mean? Or just like, like that's not good. 

Heather: Or just like not understanding that like, this is not my day. Mm-hmm. And I need you to understand that this is not my day and whatever comes outta my mouth today, just like take it with a grain of salt.

Exactly. I don't, I don't believe it. Yeah. Not that I'm like a fucking bitch, but I'm just like, I'm off my game. Yeah. You know? And everyone has those days and my period is coming in two weeks. I'm surprised we're not synced up. 

Zoe: Well, it's because we're both on birth control. 

Heather: I'm not on birth control. Right. 

Zoe: I I always forget that I'm 

Heather: on, I have, oh, I'm not wearing it.

It's charging. But I have the aura ring. Yeah, I told you that. Yeah. I got confused. Yeah, you got very 

Zoe: confused. But that 

Heather: was not birth control. Yeah. I was the aura ring, if you don't know what it is, it's like it tracks your hormones and your heart and your sleep and everything, all your vitals. Mm-hmm. But you can also connect it to [00:05:00] your natural cycles, which is like your period and your all that, your, your cycle.

And so it tells you when your period's coming. It tells you when you're fertile. It tells you when you can have unprotected sex. And I'm an idiot. I was having sex and he was like, where do you want me to come? And I was like, inside. Mm-hmm. And he was like, that's scary 'cause we haven't done that yet.

Mm-hmm. And then he pulled out and then after I was like. Oh yeah, I was fully thinking that I'm on birth control. Yeah. This is not birth control. Not birth control babe. This is just like telling me when I'm fertile. But I was, I've just been so reliant on it that like even in that moment having sex, I was like, no, I'm safe.

And then I looked at my phone and it was like, you are extremely fertile. Don't go near men. And I was like, no. And we cannot get pregnant 

Zoe: right now, Heather. We have a lot of shit to do with this podcast. Well, 

Heather: your text this morning to me, I said Absolutely not. 

Zoe: No, I know. It's crazy. I was like, I told you that I got my period this morning, but it's okay because my boyfriend's, my boyfriend's dad's girlfriend.

Mm-hmm. [00:06:00] Told my boyfriend. Oh, like I think someone in your family's gonna get pregnant soon. Or like, maybe your girlfriend's gonna get pregnant soon. 'cause I had a dream that someone had a baby. And my boyfriend told me that and I was like, well that's weird. That's weird to tell someone and tell someone about your dreams.

That you're dreaming of someone getting pregnant. Yeah. And that maybe it's your girlfriend. No, I'm not getting pregnant. No. Keep your fertility dreams to yourself. Thank you so much. Yeah. But I also, maybe I am a bitch too, because I tell my brother's girlfriend that I want her to get pregnant as soon as possible so that there can be a baby in the family.

Well, that's just like hopeful thinking. That's hopeful thinking that's like, but I am a little bit manifesting that for her. So if she gets pregnant, she might blame it on me. Are they, do they want kids? Probably not right now. Like they do have a house and two dogs together in Sarnia. Mm-hmm. So I'm like, why not have a kid right now?

Right. You know, it's 

Heather: Now 

Zoe: do we feel like, just 

Heather: have a kid for me. Please. Do we feel like this is one of the tangents that Arianne is gonna be like, I [00:07:00] fucking told you not to do that in five minutes in we're talking about something. Yeah, we 

Zoe: are. 

Heather: It's hard. It's hard. It's hard. One of the main things is not to go on tangents, but like everything.

Reminds me of something. 

Zoe: But yeah, overall good week, I got some rest. I got to just like be myself and rot in my bed. Mm-hmm. Which is amazing. And Toronto is hopefully gonna be beautiful 

Heather: this week. Well that's the other thing. What were you doing if you weren't rotting in your bed this weekend? Exactly.

That was misery. That was, that was crazy. That was just, that was so, I was like, where is Noah? The arc is on its way. Yeah. Like this is a serious flood situation. Not really, but it was not good. It's also June and it's freezing, so Yeah. I need to be on my pool. 

Zoe: Yeah. 

Heather: Tanning. Yeah. ASAP. It's coming. It's coming.

There's so many good things to look forward to. I know. It is. It is getting very exciting. Dundas Westfest, which I'm a little nervous about because of crowds. Yeah. But we will see. Yeah. Um. I am [00:08:00] fine. Yeah. My mental health is fine. Here's the thing I'll say, I, I was gonna be like, oh, I'm this and this and this.

Mm-hmm. And there is a lot going on with me, but I also feel like I've kind of trapped myself into like a, I'm exhausted, I'm, mm-hmm. I can't fucking figure things out. I'm like, I'm frustrated. Like this is happening. My family's doing this, my this is doing this. And I'm like, okay. So I can either keep going with that cycle or I can be like, yeah, I'm good.

I'm good. Yeah. Things are things and like, that's okay. 

Zoe: Yeah. It doesn't matter what's happening like around you, as long as you're okay in yourself, that's all that matters. And you can't control what everyone's doing around you. 

Heather: No. And I am okay. It's like, this has been a lot with like the podcast setup.

Mm-hmm. Trying to figure out things that, like I was talking to Anne about this, that like we, you know, and I mean, you have a, do you have a bachelor's in arts? Yeah. Yeah. So do we. And it's like people who are arts, like have our bachelor's where like mm-hmm. We don't like being bad at shit. Yeah. Or like learning the learning curve for [00:09:00] me feels like failure all the time.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Every time, even like I'm asking Chachi PT something and it tells me something and that is not how it correlates to the camera. I'm like, oh, I guess I'm an idiot. Yeah. I'm gonna throw it all out the window. But no, but we got it going. We got it going. We have really good people around us and it's, I'm excited happening.

Yes. Uhuh, I just looked, I'm like, is that recording? Why is the thing so small? I think, I think just because it's stretched out. Got it. Yeah. I believe in you. But my mental health is good. I would say I'm like at a six outta 10, but that's like, I'm just gonna say that. And I honestly think 

Zoe: I'm a six too, because I'm like, I'm not great.

I feel like shit, I have my period. Yeah, 

Heather: man, it really takes you out. And 

Zoe: there's no sun right now and. I mean, I do like that my friends have a bunch of drama to tell me. But no, 

Heather: that was very thrilling. Zoe came over here and immediately hopped on a call and I loved it. Yeah, I love that stuff. I love girls talking about girl shit.

Um, okay, so let's get into some [00:10:00] sober news, shall we? Let's do it. Okay. I miss this. I miss this too. So this one was like equally upsetting and thrilling to me at the same time because like I love when I know about people in the news, but I hate, I mean, unfortunately all of our news is like either incredibly, you know, people that are sober or people that are, you know, doing shit.

So Mary Lou Rutten, you know Mary Lou Rutten? Is this what you sent me? Yes. Yeah. Okay. So Mary Lou Rutten was the first woman to ever win a gold at the Olympics. Yes. She's a gymnast in the eighties. She went to the Olympics in 1984. This is an incredible person. What was her sport? Gymnastics. Gymnastics?

Yeah. Okay. All around gymnastics. She. Is incredible. She was itty bitty. Bitty, like she also like, had the same coaches as who's coaching the American team now, which is super fucking problematic. So it's like, who's the, um, who's that? Ser, oh, I don't even wanna say his name, but the, the physiotherapist that was like assaulting all those kids.

Oh, I [00:11:00] didn't even know that. I don't know if he was, I don't know if he was around when Mary Lou was, but I remember watching like things like after Mary Lou and was around. They're, they 

Zoe: probably so old now though. How are you still fucking around the, the gymnast? The coaches. Oh, the coaches 

Heather: I know. Like they're probably, well they probably started coaching at like 14, right.

You know, in Russia. Yeah. And then just, I mean, they go forever. I think like gymnastics keeps them alive. It's insane. Not eating. Keeps you alive. Really? That doesn't make sense. And screaming and yelling and. I don't know, not seeing the light of day. So it's very exciting. And she, I mean, she was an amazing little gymnast, and I, I, I have a lot of emotions about this whole thing already.

Mm-hmm. But I'll tell you what happened. Okay. So on May 17th, Mary Lou Retten is, um, pulled over for driving erratically. Mm. Okay. She smells like alcohol. She has a wine bottle in the passenger seat, which is like, as she does Me too. Yeah. And she's refusing [00:12:00] a field sobriety test. Okay. She like, is erratic.

She doesn't wanna go, she like, doesn't wanna do a sobriety test, so she's arrested. Okay. The thing about this is like classic whatever, but I just, when I read this, I just felt so deeply for her because, not that I know her, not that I know like her deal. Mm-hmm. But Mary Lou Retten is this person that was like incredible when she was like.

15. Mm-hmm. And like, she got so many accolades. People love her when they think of her. They think of that like little Mary Lou who was like flipping and jumping and all these things. And now, I mean, a few years ago, I have it here in 2023, her daughter shared that she, that Mary Lou had a, a rare form of, of pneumonia.

Okay. And she started a crowdfunding thing for her. And then people came at it in the comments and were like, wait, what the fuck? Like Mary Lou Retton needs money. This is crazy. Yeah. Why doesn't you have any money? And, but it's like, you don't get money for the Olympics. Well, and [00:13:00] certainly not really back then.

Yeah. And I'm like, and especially as a woman back then. Well, that's the thing, right? Yeah. Like you can be incredible. Yeah. And then you're going to hit a certain age where like, okay, Simone Biles is here now, babe. Yeah. Like, we don't really care. I mean, I care Yeah. But like women aren't, women have a end date.

Yeah. And I just, I wonder if like the drinking. And the pneumonia. I mean, pneumonia comes when you're just like, you know, you're not taking care of yourself. Yeah. You're, you're, I don't know. Depression has a big thing to do with it. And I, I just wonder if being a child star Yeah. And being this incredible gymnast, how old was 

Zoe: she when she won the Olympics?

Like 15. 15? Yeah. 

Heather: Can, 

Zoe: can you win an Olympic gold medal now at 15? 

Heather: I don't really, I forget what they have the 

Zoe: rules changed with that. Well, can you go in before you're 18? 16? I think 16 is, 

Heather: yeah. I mean, maybe younger, but I, I feel like it's mostly 16 is like when they start. Yeah. 'cause that's like so [00:14:00] young.

I was having this conversation yesterday. Mm-hmm. Um, with Marlo actually who has a podcast, but she, I was saying like, you know, you have your one identity Yeah. Your whole life. You work towards that. And for me, I genuinely believed that, like, if you're young and you have a talent mm-hmm. And it's good, you only get one.

Mm-hmm. 

That's what I think I, I believe. Did someone tell you that? No, I just think I, I mean maybe yeah. It's like come up, but I just felt like this is what I was meant to do. I was meant to dance and I was like actively leaving it. And I knew, I was like, when this is over, this is over for me, you know?

Mm-hmm. I think a lot of people way That's a feel a lot of pressure 

Zoe: to put on yourself though, as a young kid. 

Heather: It's insane. But I also didn't have any other education. Yeah. I didn't have any other skills. I didn't have hobbies. You knew, you knew you were dumb. 

Zoe: Mm-hmm. 

Heather: I was an idiot. Yeah. I was an 

absolute idiot.

Yeah. And so I just, I have felt that like pain and like it's insufferable to be like, I used to be incredible and now I'm this. [00:15:00] Yeah. And also she's aging. Yeah. So I wonder that, throw that in the mix. Yeah. You know, and then you have, you know, a, a wine bottle in your passenger seat. 

Zoe: Yeah. I mean, going back to the GoFundMe thing mm-hmm.

I'm sure she doesn't have money because Yeah. What would she have money for? From, yeah. If she hasn't been doing anything since then, I know, and I'm sure back then they didn't pay her a lot, you know? No. So it makes sense that she doesn't have money. I 

Heather: think the idea is that like, if you are a household name Yeah.

Or if you have been, then, then you're set. Yeah. And that's probably really shitty too. Yeah. Because you're like, I'm supposed to be amazing. Yeah. I'm supposed to be okay. Yeah. I shouldn't have pneumonia. I'm a wor, like a, like a international athlete. Yeah. I just imagine that that's so much like pressure.

Yeah. Packing it on. Yeah. And I, I, 

Zoe: I really feel for her, but maybe she also got pneumonia because she wasn't taking care of herself and drinking a lot. Possibility. 

Heather: Y Yeah. I mean, I was getting pretty sick when I was [00:16:00] like, I was, I had the flu all the time. Yeah. So in the winter when I was drinking, I just, I just feel for her.

'cause I'm like, maybe she's just out of her mind and loves drinking and loves driving. But I mean, we know women can't do that. Babe. You can't 

do 

that. Yeah. So I, I feel like. This is a bigger story. Yeah. And I mean, I hope, I hope, I hope she's okay. I would love for someone to interview her. Yeah. But like, obviously she's not sober and she like Yeah.

Needs to go through some stuff. But I think, did she say she's like going to rehab or anything? No, no, no, no. She come out with anything? No. No. She hasn't made a statement. Yeah. Um, I mean, I don't really know what happens. Yeah. You could just get a DUI, right? Yeah. You wouldn't like go to, unless you like hit somebody, you probably wouldn't go to jail.

Yeah. But, or maybe you would. I don't really know how it works. I don't think 

Zoe: you can go to jail for your first DUI. Maybe it's different in the States. The states. The states. Yeah. I dunno. No idea. Um, but yeah, 

Heather: I think it brings up a bigger conversation, which we have been talking about, which we did, did just talk about, but women and sobriety and the shame.

Mm-hmm. And then you get in your car and you just [00:17:00] wanna be alone and you feel like shit. And then, and then you get in trouble and you're like, yeah, but I'm in trouble because of all that stuff that happened. Yeah. Like, it's not just, I'm not a bad person. Mm-hmm. And I just, I don't know. It's been weighing on my heart Yeah.

For, you know, I'm like. Mary Lou, but I, I hope she's okay. 

Zoe: Yeah. And like she better not do it again. Don't 

Heather: do it again. 

Zoe: Don't drink and jive. Guys. Get that. Get 

Heather: take those keys away. Take those keys away. Okay. So that is our sobriety news, our sober news. And I, I mean, I love to talk about women's gymnastics whenever I can.

Yeah. So it's extremely thrilling for me. Did you do gymnastics growing up? Yeah, but only till like, I was like six or something. Yeah, I think same. Yeah. I wasn't very good. I wasn't very flexible. 

Zoe: I don't think I was either. And I think my dad told me that he didn't like the way that the gymnastics girls had like the arch in their back all the time, and it looked very like crazy.

And he was like, yeah, if you don't like it, let's take you out. Sway back. [00:18:00] Yeah. Sway back is bad. Yeah. It's a, 

Heather: it's like so much pressure on your lumbar, like your lower back. Yeah, those, I mean, even dancing, my body is wrecked. Like my hip flexors are, I'm doing, I'm doing all kinds of different therapies now to like Really?

Yeah, because my sister was like, I think they, are they 

Zoe: closed or are they open too much? No, 

Heather: they're really tight. Tight. Like really, really tight. And my sister was like, I think you're holding trauma in there. I don't think this is like a, from like not having guys have sex with you. Yeah. Under your clothes are like my legs?

No, just from like dancing all the time and like, yeah. She's like, yeah, you have trauma in there. And I think you have to breathe into them and not stretch them. Like I think that's what it is. Interesting. I know. I'm like, okay, let's figure this out. I love stretching. I don't stretch. I should now, this is also sober news, but we've kind of pushed this into like its own segment because it needs one.

Yeah. So I'm feeling calmer about it now. Okay. Are you I'm like scared. Yeah. I don't like it. I don't like [00:19:00] it. Okay. So. We are gonna be talking about the trial happening right now in London, Ontario, um, concerning the victim's name is Em. 

Mm-hmm. 

And it's about these five hockey players. Yep. Who allegedly, uh, gang bang.

This girl like raped her. Mm-hmm. Not gang bang, not like a consensual thing. Yeah. So already I'm pissed. But let me tell you the story. Let me tell you what happened. So in 2019, EM is working in London, Ontario. 2018. In 2018. Yeah. Yeah. What did I say? I think you said 2019. Oh, oh. In 2018. Fact check. Fact check on the spot.

Yeah. In, in 2018, EM is working in London, Ontario. She's young. She's like early, early twenties. Mm-hmm. And she goes to, she gets asked by her coworkers who she doesn't really know to go to this bar, Jack's bar. [00:20:00] Yep. And one of the only bars in London, one of the, I, I'm assuming if anyone lives in London or has been to London.

I mean, I've gone 

Zoe: out in London like maybe three times. Yeah. Because it's like so close to Sarnia. We used to drive to London to go out, so you're probably there. It's 

Heather: like one of those, I've probably been there, one of those towns where it's like crazy horse. There's like one bar. Yeah. Hot. So she's asked by her coworkers and she's like, I'm new here.

Like, I should go. Mm-hmm. Like, I should make friends. So she goes with the girls and she says that she immediately starts drinking. Mm-hmm. Like she has, she starts drinking. Like she says, she's nervous. She doesn't really know these people, and she just kinda wants to relax, relax, fit in, let loose. Yeah.

After a work day. Yeah. Easy. Normal. So she, she's drinking with the girls and then this man comes up to her and starts dancing with her, ask or asks her to dance, brings onto the dance floor and they're drinking together, whatever. And he introduces her to Michael McLeod. Michael McLeod is an integral part to this story.

Okay. He's a demon. So she [00:21:00] finds herself like being interested in Michael McLeod. Mm-hmm. He's like hot to her, like, you know, I mean, to him he thinks that he deserves her because he's a hockey player. Right, right. And hockey players deserve everything. Uhhuh. Yeah. Including, you know, pussy apparently. Okay. So mad.

So, yeah, we're not gonna be mad today. No. 

Zoe: It's gonna be, it's gonna be okay. It's gonna 

Heather: be okay. So she's now, she's dancing with Michael McLeod and she's finding herself very attracted to him. Mm-hmm. And she's, they're drinking together and then she finds herself getting a little too drunk. Feeling a little too drunk.

I don't mean a drug situation, I don't think there hasn't been any remarks of roofies or anything like that. 

Zoe: Yeah. 

Heather: I think it's just one of those things that she probably drank too fast. And then it's one of those where you like go to the bathroom and you look at yourself in the mirror and you're like.

Yeah. Oh shit. Gotta hold this down. She's on the dance floor, she's finding herself getting blurry, getting dizzy. We have all been there. 

Zoe: Yeah. 

Heather: And then 

Zoe: when we're trying to call her Uber at at night and we [00:22:00] can't see the phone at all. Squinting. Squinting so hard, just 

Heather: trying to get home. God, um, Uber X don't wanna be in a pool with anyone.

And she feels that more men are crowding her on the dance floor. Yeah. And I mean, what she doesn't really know is that they are all the hockey guys, right? Yeah. So there's about five of them now dancing around her 

Zoe: and they're like celebrating like a win or something. Right? Like the OHL just happened.

Yeah. I don't know. They like had a win. I don't know. I think, yeah. 

Heather: Okay. Maybe that's what it is. But either way it's like they're just like celebrating being hockey players. Yeah. And it's not even than the NHL dude. No, seriously. Don't even get me started. The 

Zoe: OHL dudes are definitely worse than, than NHL dudes.

Heather: Of course they are because they like, they, they, they've made it one step further. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, it's the worst. But she's feeling all these people around her and then she's feeling them kind of close in on her and dance on her. Yeah. And she says that they're passing her around. That's how she feels. [00:23:00] Which I have felt like that too in a club.

Yeah. Like I have definitely been in a situation where I'm like, oh, who's touching my back? Who's touching my thigh? What's going on? And you guys are in cahoots, I feel. Yeah. So this whole situation, I'm like, yeah, this is very clear. And then So she's uncomfortable. Yeah. She's like, Ugh. But you gotta think like, what would you do?

Yeah. She's not necessarily terrified, but she's uncomfortable and she likes Michael and she likes Michael McLeod. So she ends up going home with Michael McLeod back to his hotel room completely consensual. No problem. Yeah. They have consensual sex. Mm-hmm. It's whatever. I'm sure it's subpar. And she is very drunk.

Yeah. Okay. We remember that when she's dancing with the guys, she's very blurry. Okay. Yeah. So she is a very drunk person right now. So they have sex. She gets up to go to the bathroom. Yeah. And she like goes to freshen up and she sees that Michael grabs his phone, but she's not concerned with it. She's probably in there for a few minutes and she comes out and there's now five men in her hotel room.[00:24:00] 

Okay. And not only that. Mm-hmm They're all holding golf clubs. 

Zoe: Right. So she was in the bathroom and noticed that he was on his phone. Yeah. And then like walks outta the bathroom and they come in. She was in the bath. They came in while she was in the bathroom. While she was in the bathroom. Got it. Yeah. So she came out 

Heather: and was, the door 

Zoe: was like, was it open so that she could see him on his phone?

I 

Heather: guess? No, I think just like when she got up he 

Zoe: grabbed his phone. Right. He grabbed his phone. I understand, I understand. So like it 

Heather: wasn't, she didn't feel like anything was happening. Got it. Okay. So when she came outta the bathroom, 

Zoe: at first I re, I thought this would be happening with the door open, but of course she would close the door.

It's a new woman, a new, it's a new man she's having sex with. Yeah. Got it. 

Heather: So she comes out and all these men are just. Standing there. Yeah. And by the way, she says that they're all, I mean they're all pretty much six feet tall. I mean, 

Zoe: hockey players are so tall and so like built out really big too. Yeah.

They're like hamburger bodies. Yeah, they're humongous. It's not for me, not my type of man. Mm-hmm. [00:25:00] It shouldn't be anyone. Actually, I'm more of like a soccer, like with the ball on the ground. You sports football, is it? I don't wanna call it football, I wanna call it soccer. To me it, well we live here, so it is soccer.

I'm more of a soccer built kind of girl. 

Heather: Just like recycling it is not our responsibility. Yeah. To, you know, use the terms that the British use. I know. 

Zoe: But I wanna feel cool and like use the term football, but like I understand football as football. That's how I can do that now because we're on video.

That's how I feel about football, not soccer. 

Heather: Yeah. I dunno where soccer 

Zoe: came from, but, um, 

Heather: oh shit. I was just gonna say something and I forgot. Doesn't matter. No, 

Zoe: their bodies are humongous. She's obviously frightened and confused. Yeah. And drunk. And why are they holding golf clubs? Right? So 

Heather: why are they holding golf clubs to scare her?

And they did. Yeah. They were [00:26:00] joking, making remarks. Should we insert these inside her? Right. Should we rape her with the golf clubs? 'cause, 'cause why the fuck not? Right? You're already there. She's there, she wants it. So this is a very frustrating thing. So she is then forced to give oral sex out to these men.

Um, and she's like raped by them for hours. 

Zoe: Yeah. And I'm sure that like. They like, what else was she gonna do? Get beat by these golf 

Heather: clubs. Well, that's exactly right. So, you know, if I just wanna like Yeah, that's right. If set the scene, if you walk outta the bathroom and there are men standing and you're a probably like em's, probably a tiny little girl.

Yeah. Yeah. And if you're just standing there and I imagine if it were me, yeah. I would be like, 

Zoe: okay, got it. That's what I gotta do now. Yes. You know, to stay alive. Like I understand. That's exactly right. What's gonna go on now? This is now what I'm gonna have to do. Yeah. I think that if I wanna stay alive, 

Heather: I think that my brain [00:27:00] and my brain has done this, but like switched into survival mode.

Yeah. I think it would. And I bet you she was just like, I'm gonna do whatever I have to do to get the fuck outta here alive. Yeah. 

Zoe: What are you gonna do? Beat up five monster men? Run, 

run. 

Heather: No, they'll catch you. They are also like, there are accounts that she or she recounts that they are like slapping her.

They're spitting on her, which is, they completely deny all of this. Yeah. One of the guys is like, why would I do that? Why wouldn't you? Why wouldn't you? Yeah. I'm sorry, but you're, you're having sex with, you're raping someone. Yeah. Why would I believe anything? Why would you be kind? I'm sorry. Was this a kind raping of one young woman?

Yeah. Okay. But clearly you guys are super fucking kind and like would never spit on a girl. This brings me to, I mentioned this last week, but I'm gonna say it. This part of the story spitting on someone and then denying it. 

Mm. 

When I was in high school, I was in ninth grade and Braden's [00:28:00] locker was right across from mine.

We're gonna talk about the hockey boys of our high school. Yeah. Yeah. So he is across the hall from me somehow, for some reason, in grade nine, I got trapped into the hockey boy hallway on 

Zoe: the 

Heather: third floor. Your locker was by the hockey boys? Yeah, 

Zoe: it was. Oh my 

Heather: God, that's terrifying. The grade grade 11 hockey boys when I was in ninth grade.

No. And if we remember that, I, they all hate me when I, for no reason. And when I leave my, the hockey boys on the first floor, yeah. That was the hallway I had to use to get to my car. So every morning when I'd walk in and every day after school when I would walk out, they'd be screaming at me, slut, plug, mustache, whatever the fuck they wanted for like 30 feet every goddamn day.

So Brady 

Zoe: baby, little Heather, probably so tiny. Terrified. Absolutely terrified. These huge guys. Yeah. Calling you a plug. Yeah. Which 

Heather: also what? What butt plug. Try it. You'll like it. You'll like it. I know you will. It's great. Yeah. Yeah. Get a little trainer one. It's fine. Yeah. Braden s locker is across the hall from mine.

He's in [00:29:00] 11th grade. Okay. His mom like, knows my mom, by the way, like we live on the same street. But did you ever rat him out? No. Good. She's not a snitch. I'm not a snitch, but I'm doing it now. Yeah. You know? Now we are. So he comes over to my locker for no reason. Okay. I haven't ever spoken to this person in my life, and I'm putting my textbooks up on the locker, and he comes behind me, puts his nose in my hair, and sneezes disgusting.

So, so why wouldn't you spit on her? Why wouldn't you? Yeah. I'm sorry. We're not. These aren't rational people. Yeah. This is, and and yes, I'm emotional about it, but I also grew up with these guys who do shit for no fucking reason. Yeah. Like 

Zoe: no crazy. All of the hockey guys at my high school had, I don't know why they have a delegated hallway just for them.

Like they're like the saints of the school. Yes. And they can do no harm. And Yeah. You were saying that like they got special treatment with the teachers. They didn't have to hand stuff in on time. Like why [00:30:00] is that? Why do we treat them so much better than other people at the school? 

Heather: There is something about, and 

Zoe: especially in a small town in Canada, Canada, by the way, Canada.

Yeah. Like we worship these hockey men and they can do no harm and yeah, sure. You didn't get your schoolwork done on a certain time. You have another day because you're so busy with hockey. Oh. And it doesn't matter because you're flirting with the teachers. Yeah. And they flirt back. I'm sure. I think. I know one guy made out with a teacher who the teacher was hot, so like, fuck yeah, I'd make out with her too, but I don't think he was a hockey bro.

Heather: Mm. I think 

Zoe: he was a football bro. 

Heather: Well, yeah, and I mean, we see it like, and then he got like detention, like watching 13 reasons why. Yeah. I was like, yeah, this is close to home. Yeah. I know all this shit. Yeah. Everything that's going on in this, I'm like, this is not, this is not a, um, like inflammatory 

Zoe: and also like calling the girls puck bunnies or like, this girl fucked every guy on the hockey team.

Like looking back on it now, [00:31:00] did she fuck everyone on the hockey team or did they fuck her? You know what I mean? Well, yeah. 

Heather: And you always say this thing that's like, ask her if, ask her if she fucked them back. 

Zoe: Yeah. Did she fuck back? I bet not. 

Heather: Probably not. No. They, she was probably passed around too.

Right. So. Eventually when it's over. Mm-hmm. She gets, she's try, she tries to leave a few times, by the way. Yeah. And they like coax her back in. Yeah. And I don't know what coax means. I mean, they're huge men. Yeah. I don't think it's that difficult to keep her in a room. 

Zoe: Yeah. Just stand over the door. 

Heather: Yeah.

Zoe: Like easy. So 

Heather: early hours in the morning she leaves and she goes home, wait, we missed an important part. Oh. 'cause they took the videos of her. Right. Oh my God, I'm so sorry. Yes. Let's go back. They also show in the courtroom. Mm-hmm. They show videos that the men have taken of her. Yeah. Consenting to the sex.

Zoe: Yeah. And when I brought this up to my dad, like a few weekends ago when I was home, he was like, yeah, but they didn't do that because they have video proof of her consenting. Mm-hmm. And I'm like, [00:32:00] dad, that's the whole fucking point. 

Heather: Yeah. 

Zoe: I have never been in a sexual situation. And a man pulls out their phone asking, oh, make sure you say this is consent, press play.

Heather: Mm-hmm. 

Zoe: Why would they need that video if they weren't doing something 

Heather: wrong? The only reason, yeah. The only reason you would force a consent video mm-hmm. Of somebody is because you know you're doing something wrong. Yeah. And because you've done it Yeah. Before and you know that if you have a little piece of evidence Yeah.

That works for you. Well, everyone's just gonna bow down to you. Yeah. 'cause you're fucking Michael McLeod. Exactly. A subpar hockey player. Exactly. 

Zoe: No, it's so weird that people are like believing that too. Yeah. Because like, of course, like you said, there was golf clubs in the room. These men are huge. She's tiny.

There's five of them. She's drunk. She's drunk. 

Heather: She said that she does not remember. Yeah. Those videos being taken of her. Interesting. Now this leads me to the defense. Yeah. So [00:33:00] the defense is speaking with her and they're saying, they're saying they're, they've decided that the narrative about her is that when she drinks, yeah.

She develops an alter ego and that alter ego. Doesn't care. Doesn't care at all about what happened or what she does when she's drinking. 

Hmm. But 

when she's sober, oh, it's an issue. Right. Got it. So she's just embarrassed now because also she had a boyfriend at this time. 

Zoe: Mm. 

Heather: Which she cops up to. And she says like, yeah, I did.

And I told him. 

Zoe: Yeah. 

Heather: We were a very new relationship. 

Zoe: Yeah. What 

Heather: you're trying to fucking do is defame my character. Yeah. By being like, not only am I a drunk slut. Yeah. I also cheated on someone and now I'm taking it on these fuckers. Yeah. Now they came at me. Yeah. So 

Zoe: that 

Heather: is all. And like yeah, 

Zoe: if I had a new relationship and there was a hot hockey boy trying to have sex with me from the OHL, yeah.

I would have sex with a hot OHL player too. It's not calling her a slut, it's a new thing. She chose to do that. Mm-hmm. Didn't choose to have all of his friends come into the [00:34:00] room. 

Heather: That's exactly right. And what she says is they ask her, were you drunk? Whose responsibility is that? If you're getting too drunk, who's responsibility?

And she said, whoa. Yeah, I take accountability. Yeah. I drink. Yeah, I drink probably too much. Yeah. But I as a woman should be allowed to drink. Yep. Get a little off the rails. Yeah. And not have happen, what happened to me, you know, this is a small town. We should be able to just blaming it 

Zoe: on the fact that she was drinking too much and that she was asking for it basically is insanity.

Heather: Yeah. I think the problem too, a major problem for me with that defense questioning Yeah. Is what you just said. Mm-hmm. Is that the second women get any alcohol in their system, 

Zoe: they're allowed to and they, anyone's allowed to rape them and they love it. Yeah. 

Heather: They might care when they get sober, so it's probably best if you really liquor them up so they won't remember.

What that said to me is that like, if I drink, I'm in, I'm in severe danger. 

Zoe: But also I bet you they had a bottle at their [00:35:00] table and was feeding em booze. Yeah. I'm sure they, it's not like. She was like, oh, let's still go take a shot. I'm sure there was alcohol being served to her from them to coax her. To get her drunk.

To get her loose, 

Heather: yeah. And you don't know, maybe like her going home with Michael McLeod was like her way of getting away from these guys. That's also 

Zoe: true. Yeah. Like, okay, let's just have sex and then I'll be able to go home after that. Yeah. 

Heather: I wanna bring up this point. So Carter Hart was, he was the, he was the most recent to testify.

Mm-hmm. 

Did all of them testify? No. Michael McLeod refuses to testify. 

Zoe: Got it. And that just shows everything that needs to be shown. Doesn't 

Heather: it though? 

Zoe: Yeah, it should. 

Heather: So Carter Hart was, he just testified and the lawyer asked him, why did you agree to this public sex act? And he said, I didn't have sex. She just [00:36:00] gave me head.

Zoe: That's like when my godmother dropped me off at the guy's house, Uhhuh when I was in high school, like one of the guys I was seeing and she drops me off and says, okay, well just remember giving head is sex too. Giving head is sex too. 

Heather: It's sex. It's sex. It's just as impactful. Yeah. It's just as nerve wracking.

Yeah. It's an intimate act that you only wanna do when you're feeling comfortable. So that that answer that he gave, I kind of could just like, yeah, do that because I'm sorry. Are you extremely dumb? Let me compare him the, I'm gonna give him the benefit of the doubt, actually, because Why not? It's more fun.

He might be incredibly stupid. Right? A lot of hockey players don't go, are stupid. They're stupid and have a lot of 

Zoe: brain cells lost 

Heather: because they don't have to go to class often. Yeah, they don't. Need to. They don't need to care. Yeah. I mean, there was a bunch of real dumb dumbs walking around my school.

Yeah. And this person doesn't know that oral sex [00:37:00] counts as sex. Yeah. And therefore, that person doesn't understand the vulnerability that goes into sex. Right. Doesn't understand the impact. Doesn't understand the fucking vibe. 

Zoe: Yeah. 

Heather: So like, I think you did it because you genuinely don't even know that what you did was wrong.

I think you're so fucking stupid. Yeah. However, when there's a crying girl in front of you. Yeah. I think that's pretty clear to me. Anyway. It should be. To me no means no. No. But like there 

Zoe: men are crazy. And why do they like that? Like why do they like that? Why do they like having sex with a crying person?

Why do they like having sex with a drunk person? Period. I know a lot of people have sex, have had sex with me. When I'm wasted, why did they still wanna have sex with me? 

Heather: Yeah. When I'm wasted now. Good point because Zoe and I, I tried to bring this up. Yeah. And then lost it. But Zoe and I have said in past episodes that like, you know, [00:38:00] sexual assault or things happen to us and we said, yeah, of course they did.

We put ourselves in those situations. Mm-hmm. That's different 

Zoe: than what em is. Yes. Did you know like it's, em was just trying to drink and have a good time. Yeah. She was in and out of blackout, I guess. Yeah. If she doesn't remember some stuff, we were drinking to get blackout and to stay blackout. 

Heather: Yeah. And also we knew the consequences.

We knew and to us, like drinking unfortunately was so much more important Yeah. Than what those consequences could be. And they didn't always happen, but we put ourselves in danger actively all the time. Yes. Going to a bar and drinking is not danger. No. That is not classified as danger. Shouldn't be. No. No.

Being fucked up, blacked out, not knowing whose house you're in. Yeah. Dangerous. Shouldn't have done that regardless. Nothing should have ever happened to us. Yeah. Ever. Yeah. At the hands of men, and that is what happened. Yeah. But all that to say, we've been flippant about things in the past, like of course that happened.

This should not [00:39:00] happen. Yeah. No, this should not happen. It shouldn't. It's illegal. Yeah. It's disgusting. It's deplorable. And those, and men should be put in jail or burned to the ground if they do this. 

Zoe: I also like don't understand because yeah, they should go to jail forever or get burned to the ground because I don't believe a man can do that and then like rebuild himself after that.

If you can do that, you're a disgusting human being, and I don't believe that you'll ever become 

Heather: a good person again. I was lying in my bed last night thinking about this story and listening to, um, Carter's testimony, and I was thinking about the men that were in my high school. Yeah. The, the boys that were in my high school that are now men.

Um, I, I've said this to you before, I, I knew the word gang bang before I even knew how sex worked. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Okay. Um, and that's just because in the culture we grew up in Yeah. With the hockey culture of it all, you were hearing those words. Yeah. 

Zoe: It's so [00:40:00] scary how people be, can become two different people, right?

Yes. And like a behind closed doors version of yourself and then someone that you present to the world. And that's exactly what these five guys are doing. Mm-hmm. They're trying to present this like sweet persona and get everyone's. Get every, get everyone on their side by being like a hockey man and a nice person outside of what actually happened in 

Heather: that hotel room.

Yeah. Well some of the guys, one of the lawyers was saying like, oh, em wanted to hang out with Michael McLeod because he was a hockey player. Yeah, 

Zoe: of course he did. I would want to too. But, but, but that doesn't excuse the five other men that came in there, 

Heather: but also she wanted to hang out with you because you were a hockey player.

I'm sorry guys. It's not that big of a deal that you play hockey. You all play hockey. Yeah. No, all of you. We think 

Zoe: that now, but I know when I was like 21 years old, I would've loved that. You know? Yeah. Bring 

Heather: on the hockey 

Zoe: boys. Let's do it. Okay. Let's have 

Heather: fun. So, um, in that case, yeah. [00:41:00] Now we're talking about the responsibility of the men.

Yeah. Who are hockey players, who have girls throwing themselves at them. Yeah. So why do you need to take advantage of somebody Exactly. 

Zoe: Right. Because it's not enough for them. Because these men need more, always. They need more. One can never be enough, five can never be enough. They need to have complete control over the situation.

And yeah, have a girl cry in front of them. Have a girl beg to leave in front of them. They need more. And it's disgusting of these men that need that. But it's something in their fucking brains that I believe a lot of guys have this just like need to be, have complete control over women. And it comes to this point of, well then why don't you become, why don't you be in a relationship?

Girls love having that. Yeah. Like there's lots of women out there that love to be dominated in the bedroom and love to play submissive in the bedroom. And these guys can be dominant. Get it out that way. Yeah. Don't get it out [00:42:00] by raping 

Heather: people. But I think that under. A relationship that has like consensual mm-hmm.

Rough sex or consensual BDSM. Mm-hmm. There's consent. That's the main thing. Yeah. And I, I think to people who assault, to people who take advantage of women and rape them, they don't want the consent. Yeah. It almost feels like, how dare you not want this? Mm-hmm. I, I deserve this, this, this is all mine. Yeah.

I, everything I touch is mine. Well, for even the lawyer to be like, she wanted him 'cause he's a hockey player. I'm like, and what does that mean? Yeah. What does that mean? If you have a, a specific job, you get to rape people. This is getting a little crazy, but I'm just getting Yeah. We're going, I'm going a little off the rails.

Two more things. Okay. And then I'm done with this. One thing that pissed me off was I saw the text messages, um, that Michael McLeod sent to the teammates. Got it. And he said, Hey guys, we all have to [00:43:00] say the same thing when we get in there. Yeah. So. You guys are working together to lie? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. 

Zoe: So I don't say the same thing when we get in there.

As in like when the guys came into the room or meaning to go into the police station. Sorry to, to 

Heather: go into trial and the police station. It was probably police station. Yeah. When they were being ed soon. Yeah. They, he texted all of them and was like, we all have to, we all have to say the same thing. Let's get our fucking story straight.

Yeah. So, so you did it right? Like when I've had sex with people, I don't then have to text them the next day and be like, can we get our story straight on this? Exactly. No, it's actually insane. It's insane. I feel like this, what we've just said is enough. Yeah. I, I know, I, I didn't even have to believe, but like also, why don't we believe women?

Why? I don't think we believe women because I don't think that women compared to men contribute enough to society. And I don't think we're strong enough. We give [00:44:00] them life. Wait, are you kidding me? We give them life, we raise them, they become CEOs and they treat us as shit, and then they shit on us. Yeah.

And rape us. Yeah. Lovely world. We live in Heather. I think it's really hard for society, which is run by men. Yeah. To um, come down on other men. Yeah. I think it's hard for them. I think it's like you guys are ruining it for all of us. Yes. Yeah. Now we have to go out of our way to have this trial. Yeah.

Because this fucking woman, and now 

Zoe: this happened in 2018. It is now 20. What is it? What year are we in? 20? 25. 25. It's been years. It's been years. And this poor girl has had to live with this and now confront it again. One of my friends is going through, um, her ex-boyfriend assaulted her. Mm-hmm. And she.

Wanted to go to trial at the beginning when it first happened, she was like into it, whatever. She was like, yeah, he deserves whatever he gets. [00:45:00] He did this thing bad for to me. And now that it's six months later and stuff's finally happening in the court, she's like, no, I don't wanna go to trial. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna testify.

Yeah. The crown's got it. I don't need to be there because I've already dealt with it. It's been six months. Mm-hmm. So, of course she doesn't wanna be there. 

Heather: That's also when people say like, why don't women? Yeah. Why don't more women? It's like, because you make us, you, we sit there and Yeah. Women are question, question questioned.

Yeah. And this whole thing, it's like you clearly are just building this case to like prove that she's a whore. Yeah. Or prove that she wanted it. And more so that like, but it's also like 

Zoe: girls, we, we, something bad happens to us. Mm-hmm. And then we deal with it. Yes. Okay. We are. We're healing, we're on this journey.

It's in the past, and then we have to go to trial. No, I don't wanna, I don't wanna testify anymore because I am healed and it's in my past. 

Heather: Yeah. In front of, in front of your mom and dad and in front of everyone, God and everyone. 

Zoe: Yeah. It's [00:46:00] crazy. Um, no, the whole system's fucked. And I just think that we need to believe women.

Like I, I saw a stat that said 4% of the women lie about what rape. That's 4%. But of course then you said the man's gonna take that 4% and run with it. 

Heather: Well, yeah, that's what they do. That what they do. It's the same thing. Like I've heard men when it's like 99.9% of, um, sexual assaults are done by men. And it's like, okay, but what about that like teacher, that female teacher who had sex with her student?

I'm like, yeah, yeah, they're out there, but you're missing the, the point baby. Yeah. And that's all porn. You guys love that shit. You love that shit. You love that shit. It, it's, it's just. And also when I, when, when that comes up too. It's really exhausting. It's exhausting. I'm literally 

Zoe: like so frustrated and there's so much more that needs to happen.

And I really hope that Justice has served for this. 

Heather: Me too. I think yeah. Just to round that one out, the culture of hockey is an incredibly [00:47:00] dangerous, vicious, disgusting, sometimes evil sport. Mm-hmm. And I believe that. And I believe it's the coaches. It's, there were moms on my street who didn't even have kids in hockey.

Mm-hmm. And they were putting hockey Si. Mm-hmm. Ghost Sacred Heart assaulters, or like, I don't know what they were called. Um, but I'm like, y'all are obsessed. Yeah. With this group of like young boys. Yeah. And so if you grow up as a king in your own town, I don't really know what that says to you. Yeah. And it is 

Zoe: dangerous to like be growing up being put on a pedestal, right?

Yeah. Yeah. And then you have all this power as a kid. Then you go into university, you get a real job. You still want that power, so you have to get it in other ways. And that is dangerous. You can't be putting your kids on a fucking pedestal like that. No. And praising them, that's 

Heather: bad. And by the way, if you're gonna be in the basement with your son, which I knew a lot of people like this, I mean like, you know so many, [00:48:00] what is it called when you shoot the puck?

Like they had to practice so much in their basement. Yeah. And I'm like, why not in between teach 'em how to be good men? Yeah. I don't give a fuck that. You're gonna play hockey and then never play hockey again after high school. I want you to be a good person, but foundationally you're a piece of shit because you're part of this weird culture that teaches you to be mean to women and not respect women.

And that is where I rest my case. I really hope justice is served, like you said. Yeah. We will continue to follow up with this. Um, but I hate them. I do wanna go back to one point that I said. Earlier about, yeah. When she was being cross examined, em was being cross examined and the lawyer asked like, whose responsibility is this?

Like, right. That you got so drunk and then did whatever you wanted. Whose responsibility is that? And I think that's a really interesting point because it's like we've all been in situations, like I've been in situations with like boyfriends where like, we're both drunk and we have sex. Yeah. And I'm like, there was really no [00:49:00] consent involved in that.

Consent. Yeah. And like, but it was fine. But it's like that you can tell with 

Zoe: the vibe of like if it's a boyfriend, you know? 

Heather: Yeah. But also if I'm really drunk mm-hmm. And there are men around and you're having sex with me and I'm fucked up. 

Zoe: Well that's where it just comes down to like a good man wouldn't want to have sex with a drunk person.

Yeah. Like the. The men that were having sex with me when I was drunk, they weren't good men. 'cause like why would you wanna have sex with someone who's blacked out? Probably dozing off. Like, I don't know what I was doing if I was asleep. I don't know. Yeah, 

Heather: I don't, I think, I think that is the thing, right?

It's like 

Zoe: if someone's drunk, you shouldn't be having sex with them. You can see like the deadness in their eyes. If they're dead in the eyes, don't have sex with them. Wait until the morning sleep over. Be a good man. Just, yeah, just don't have, don't have sex with [00:50:00] someone if they're drunk. 

Heather: Yeah. We've brought this up before and it is a big question I wanna ask.

One of the men I've had sex with, but there were times where I like fell into people's homes. Yeah. Because I was so drunk showing up there and like they had sex with me and it wasn't even a question. Yeah. And I'm like, is the consent to you me showing up here? Yeah. Because. 

Zoe: Okay. Okay. Like, yeah. And I'm sure that we ask these guys like, Hey, let me come over.

I wanna suck your dick. You know? 

Heather: Oh my God. I initiated it all the The time. The time. 

Zoe: The But why? But why? If I had a guy come over, or I guess if I was a guy in a girl came over to my house drunk like that, there's no way. I wanna get hard and fuck her. 

Heather: Well, and that's what I think the difference is. Like there's like a weird biological difference.

Sex is not that important to me where I need to fuck your unconscious body. Unconscious body, literally. It's something, there's something wrong with you. There's something wrong [00:51:00] with you. Yeah. Because us as sober women, yeah, we're not playing the same game. We're not as sober men, as drunk women. We're not playing the same game as drunk men.

We're not. Mm-hmm. And I think it's incredibly important to talk about how it happens right from the get go, from being raised like that. Yeah. Immersed in this culture. And like how it's kind of brought us here. So I think following the case is gonna be a good idea. Yeah. 

Zoe: Now, can't believe it's going on at the same time that the Diddy case, we can't get into that.

I can't get 

Heather: into it. I am explosive. Yeah. Um, okay. But what I, we'll talk about that again. What I, we'll talk about it next time. We'll talk about it next time. Yeah. We'll do a whole, we'll do a whole Diddy die. We're gonna have one whole Diddy Day, Diddy die. Okay. And we're gonna never talk about it again. We talk about it when it's over.

Maybe what I really wanna talk about, okay. Is that Zza? You went to Nashville? Oh, I did. For a drinking event. 

Zoe: We went to Nashville for my cousin's 21st birthday. Mm-hmm. When the guys were approaching us, [00:52:00] I did not tell them that because my cousin did not wanna be the 21 year olds. A what? You know when the guys approach us at a bar?

Yeah. Okay. I'd said it once to these guys. I was like, oh yeah, we are here for my cousin's 21st birthday. And then she pulled me aside and she was like, can you not tell them we're here because of that? 'cause I don't wanna be 21. How old did she wanna be? I said she was like 23. I just said, we're here for my cousin's birthday.

And then didn't say what age she was. 

Heather: Well I don't think I'm understanding why because these men were like late twenties. Oh, she'd be too young for them. Yeah. She'd be too young for them. 

Zoe: Mm. Based on what I know about men, I don't think that's true. I know what we just talked about. We don't know that to be true.

Yeah. But anyway, she didn't wanna be 21. So Yeah, I said that to one group of guys that came up with that to us and then she pulled me aside and said, can you not say my age? I'm gonna be 23 this weekend. And I was like, okay, let's do it. 

Heather: Alright girl. 

Zoe: Um, but yeah, there was a lot of men coming up to us [00:53:00] because.

My cousin's friend ended up coming with us. Mm-hmm. Last minute. And she is gorgeous. Mm-hmm. Her eyes, I can't even look at her without complimenting her eyes. Her eyes are stunning. Yeah. Blue, gorgeous. Little bit of yellow in there. I could swim into them. I wanted to dive into those eyes. 

Heather: Oh my God. I got coffee the other day.

Yeah. And I couldn't even order my coffee because the girl behind the, the counter. Yeah. I was like, oh my God, you're the most beautiful person I've ever seen in my life. And then it was like a little awkward and I'm like, I'm sorry, I can't though. I need to look at you because you're so pretty. You can't show up with that face.

Yeah. And not have me say something about that face. This happened in 

Zoe: New York for, while I was getting ice cream in New York for Long Friday with my Godsister and there was like this. Beautiful woman. Her hair was gorgeous and big. She was wearing heels in this gorgeous dress. This little, uh, boy was walking by and he literally stopped just to stare at her.

And I was like, no, Sam, I need to stop and stare at this woman. She's beautiful. 

Heather: Yeah, so nice. 

Zoe: Anyways, this friend of my cousin, I ended up coming on the trip and she's gorgeous. So a lot of men like [00:54:00] were approaching us because of this gorgeous girl. Mm-hmm. Um, so we met a lot of guys, a lot of people there for bachelors, bachelors us.

Were people coming up to you? 

Heather: I mean, do you feel like you weren't inviting that kind of energy as a sober person? I never invite 

Zoe: that kind of energy. I feel like I'm a very, like, scary person to approach. I'm definitely not like an approachable person. You're the approacher. Yeah. Sometimes if I feel like it.

Okay. I mean, I have a boyfriend now, so I was just, no, no. I mean, I 

Heather: mean like before though, 

Zoe: before, I don't know. I just feel like I am, I don't. And when I was in New York, a lot of guys approached me, but I think that's just New York. I feel like guys in Toronto don't approach girls. Yeah. You guys are scared here.

It's very, very scared. It's 

Heather: treous. Yeah, it's treous to be a man apparently. Literally New York is different. New York is different. New York is fun. Well, I'm going through something weird with Toronto right now where I'm just kind of like, what city does everyone think we live in here? Yeah. I feel like no one's on the same page.

My friend tried to go to a sex club here a few weeks ago and she was like, that was not the [00:55:00] vibe. She went to one in Montreal and it was like, so cool. We have to go. Yeah, we have to go. It's so cool. And everyone was like dressed really hot. Yeah. And then it was like alluring. She's like, this one was crap.

Yeah. And I'm like, I think that's because Toronto can't figure it out. We're too like uptight or something and like we're trying to be like too cool. Toronto's trying to be too cool and like, come on, just relax. But like in a weird conservative way. Yeah. In like not in politics, but in like some, I don't know, there's like something that's like in Penetrable.

Yeah, in penetrable. I feel like. Not open, not vulnerable, not honest. 

Zoe: Yeah. But this woman, she was, you know how some people are just like standing at the bar smiling and like being like happy? Yes. When I'm at the bar, I'm miserable. Like before, when I was at the bar, I was miserable and didn't want anyone like to come up to me.

Well, because you were on 

Heather: your cycle. Fuck off. You were on your cycle of like getting a drink. Yeah. Dancing for a sec. Cigarette, bathroom, coke. Yeah, go home. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was a long 

Zoe: night for you. Exactly. Anyways, so these, we met this one [00:56:00] man, and he was like older, probably late thirties, early forties.

His name was Mikey. He was actually like really fun to talk to. Mm-hmm. Why is he talking to like, yeah, a bunch of young kids. I don't know, but it's Nashville. We're having fun. 

Heather: I love 

Zoe: when you refer to yourself as a kid, I mean, I was trying to be a kid with them. 

Heather: Mm-hmm. 

Zoe: They're, I'm with 20, early 21 year olds.

I'm trying to You're in your twenties? I'm in my mid twenties though, to late twenties. 

Heather: Mid to late twenties. That's all right. 

Zoe: I digress. Yeah, this guy, Mikey, he was really fun. He was from New Jersey, so he had a lot of like banter like that. So we were bantering with him. He was hilarious. But then he asked to order us a round of drinks and I asked for a Coke.

Heather: Mm-hmm. 

Zoe: And he's like, tells the waiter, oh, just put a little bit of rum in that, like just spike her drink a bit. And I said, Mikey, no. And he said, no, it's fine. It's just a little bit of booze. And I'm like, no, Mikey, no. It's like not even funny to me. No. Like, because if you say a [00:57:00] cute, like no, like you can't do that, then the guy doesn't understand, so then you have to be fucking angry and say no.

Mm-hmm. And then he was like, okay. Like fine, I won't, that's, and then I feel, and then I look like the crazy person who doesn't drink 

Heather: because you made me be the 

Zoe: crazy person who doesn't drink. 

Heather: And that's a good point to make that like coming back to the, like we are responsible for our own sobriety. Yeah.

Because people will literally ask you, you'll say no and they'll push it. Yeah. So if you're early days of sobriety. Don't go to Nashville. Don't go to Nashville and just be so firm. Yeah. I don't 

Zoe: drink, I don't do it. I don't drink. You know? Yeah. So that was like annoying that he did that. But also, of course he was gonna do that.

You know, it's Nashville. I kind of expected people to be pushy like that. 

Heather: Yeah. 

Zoe: And yeah, I'm good in, in my sobriety, so I could do that. I could so picture someone who is not good in their sobriety, be like, oh, okay. Like, yeah, sure. Yeah. Yeah. It's scary up there. 

Heather: Well, especially if you're like, trying to have fun and you trying to impress someone and you're like, oh, whatever, it's, it's vacation.

I can do whatever I like, [00:58:00] it's fine. Yeah. But then 

Zoe: I, I did get the vibes of like, when guys would come up to us and I would say, no, I'm not drinking. Like I'm sober. They kind of didn't really care to talk to me anymore, but also I'm not there to like talk to these 20-year-old men, you know? Interesting 

Heather: though.

It is interesting. Interesting. Because it's like, and that's like the culture of going out to bars, but it's like Right. You actually have no interest in getting to know me. Yeah. And me not being drunk is problematic because now you can't get me loose. Yeah. Yeah. It's not like a, it's not like a guaranteed thing.

Yeah. It's like, oh, now I have to put effort into this. Which, exactly. I get it. If you go out and you don't wanna put effort into anything, it's fine, as long as everything's consensual. Mm-hmm. It's just interesting. 

Zoe: Yeah. 

Heather: You're like, okay. 

Zoe: Yeah. So that was, that was weird. Um, there was one guy that came up to me and he was like, oh, who are you texting?

And I said, my boyfriend. And then he immediately just like turned around and left and I'm like, oh, you don't wanna talk to me at all? Like, we can be friends. Like, fuck off. 

Heather: He's like, I'm on a mission here. I'm on a mission to [00:59:00] get late. Well, that's what I feel like Nashville would be. It would be, yeah.

Everyone that's out there, I would be like, oh my God, everyone's a predator and everyone is horny. Well, 

Zoe: there was one moment where I was standing with my godsister and her friend, and these two men just came like, like walking straight towards us, like on a mission to talk to my cousin and my cousin's friend.

Like, ah. I was like, oh, he's coming. He, they're coming, they're coming. But I felt kind of bad because they came to them and I was just like talking to no one. And. I was like, Hey, well, yeah, I guess so. I'm gonna go fuck myself then. That's exactly right. Literally, I'll just leave the conversation. Yeah. Thank 

Heather: you so much.

Zoe: No, I think I started like smoking a cigarette. 'cause I'm like, Hey. Like no one. Yeah. You guys are now talking to your men. Yeah. And now I have no one, and now I feel old and now I feel ugly. 

Heather: Oh, did, is that true? That's how you felt? Little bit. Okay. Yeah. This is an interesting thing because I, I feel like I'll do something and I'm like, oh, [01:00:00] I'm stupid.

Yeah. I'm an idiot. I'm ugly. I'm, I should kill myself. Yeah. I've never heard you do the spiral, so it's interesting. I know, 

Zoe: but it's just because like, I literally had no one to talk to. Yeah. And I'm not drinking at this rooftop bar. Yeah. And my cousin and my friend and her friend are talking to these guys and I'm sitting in the middle.

I'm like, okay. 

Heather: You're like, is everyone okay? Does everyone need a beverage? 

Zoe: I shoulda asked just that. You guys need a round, because clearly no one fucking cares about me. You kids keep me young. So 

Heather: can we, can we go back a little bit? Yeah. Ask me questions. Were you at all, uh, were you at all nervous to be going to such a drinking culture city?

I mean, 

Zoe: no, not really. Okay. I was kind of excited to see what it was gonna be like. Yeah. 'cause you'd never been to Nashville, right? No, I hadn't been to Nashville. I was excited to go. I was excited to like, have fun with my cousin and see her like, have fun. And I went for 

Heather: her. And your [01:01:00] cousin knows. Yeah. Oh my God.

There's a fly in here. It's, it's happening. Fruit fly season is happening and it is my nightmare season. Oh no. Do you 

Zoe: need to buy red wine and put it out so that the fruit flies fly in it? 

Heather: Oh, that's, that sounded like enablement. I'll get some like oj That's what my, uh. That's what my mom does all the time.

Zoe: Well, I saw this, I swear I almost drank that too, when I was like living with them in Sarnia. Like it was out and it was the only booze in the house, and I was like, oh my God, am I gonna drink this full? Full of flies? Full of flies? Oh my God. No. I literally was 

Heather: very close to doing that one day. I mean, I've eaten pizza out of the garbage before, so like I kind of get being Desper Auto and like it's protein.

Yeah, yeah. Doesn't, I think Bill Gates wants us all to eat bugs. Does he? I think so. For what? For protein. I think because there's too many to kill them. There's too many people and there's not enough animals or something interesting. And we need to eat bugs. It doesn't sound like something that I'm gonna need to do in my lifetime, but I'm not gonna eat the bugs.

Go ahead Billy Bob, you do it. [01:02:00] Billy Bob, now your cousin. Yeah. 

Zoe: Because who, sorry? Who did you go to Nashville with? Okay, so I went to Nashville with my parents, my mom and dad, and my aunt and uncle and their kid who is my cousin Sarah. And every single person drinks. And so Sarah ended up bringing her friend last minute.

Mm-hmm. Um, like the day before she booked a, a flight with us as well. And yes, everybody drinks. At first I was like, oh, damn, Sarah's bringing her friend now I'm not gonna like have Sarah to myself. Yeah. But it actually ended up being really nice because her friend didn't drink as much as Sarah does. Okay.

Like Kelsey probably had maybe 10 or maybe like five drinks a day. Everyone else was having way more than that. Yeah. Um, so it was nice to have someone there that wasn't wasted. 

Heather: Yeah. And your cousin knows that you, everyone knows that I'm sober. Everyone know that you're sober and everyone knows that you were a maniac, I would [01:03:00] assume.

Zoe: I mean, her friend doesn't know, doesn't know the extent of it, but me and her friend went on like morning walks a couple times and I kind of like got into it with her and like told her a bunch of like some stories and like why I'm sober and. The podcast and I got to like connect with her about that. 

Heather: I wonder with like family Yeah.

It, it just feels like it's a really interesting scenario where it's like someone is turning 21 and everyone's going to the drinking capital of the world. Yep. But you're a person who is sober and who's gone through the gamut. Like you've gone through, you've done what they're doing, and it got real bad.

Yeah. And I just wonder, and it's no judgment from like our side. Yeah. But from their point of view, I wonder if it's even a thought if they're like, oh, this could happen to me. Or if they're like, Zoe's so annoying, she doesn't drink. Or like, yeah, that's just not my problem. 

Zoe: I think they think it's not my problem.

Hey, I think they think, oh, Zoe's got this. She's sober. Yeah. I think they think I spent [01:04:00] X amount of money on rehab for her. She has to be Okay. Fine. You know? Yeah. Throw money at the problem and the problem is 

Heather: fixed. Sometimes. Sometimes. Sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. I just find it such an interesting thing. Did you.

Did you look at your cousin at all? I feel like I'm being like emotional about the whole thing, but did you look at your cousin at all and go like, oh yeah, that was me. Or like, I, okay, so Ooh. 

Zoe: Um, well she got really drunk the second night. Okay. And she was like making out with this guy and it was very sloppy.

Was it Jersey Mike? No, it wasn't Jersey Mike. Okay. That would've been weird 'cause Jersey Mike was 40 and like, come on. Um, this guy was an English British man, or, uh, he was an English military man. 

Heather: Oh. 

Zoe: So who knows if he was actually in the military or not, but that's what they said. Um, they were making out very sloppy.[01:05:00] 

'cause both of them were drunk. Yeah. He was hammered as well. He couldn't fucking remember my name. I was like, I really wanna punch you in the face. 

Heather: Mm-hmm. 

Zoe: Anyways, I saw everyone around us. Was looking at them in disgust. Oh, 

Heather: okay. 

Zoe: So this was like, it, people notice it wasn't, so people noticed. Okay. People noticed that they were drunk making out and like, act in a fool.

Yeah. And like sloppy, sloppy kiss. Um, so I saw that and I was like, oh God. Not because I was like embarrassed for her or anything. I was just like, I know I've done that Yes. So many times. And I know that people must have looked at me like that so many times. So I just like saw myself in that situation and I was like, e yikes.

That's bad that I did that. That's, it's, it's 

Heather: gross to like Yeah. Feel yourself in the, because like when I see other people I'm like, oh, whatever. Yeah, it's gross, but whatever. But when I put myself in that situation Yeah. I'm like, oh my god. Yeah. I was like horny in front of other people. Yeah. And like borderline [01:06:00] having sex.

Yeah. Like, ah, 

Zoe: yeah. 

Heather: To be 21. 

Zoe: Yeah. It was, yeah, it was bad. And I told her, I told her in the moment, but she was like obviously way too drunk to know, but I was like, Sarah, we gotta be Deir about this. You gotta pull it in. You can make out with him, but try to make out with him like cute, you know? Yeah. Try to be cute about it.

Be cute. And she was like, okay, okay. So I will, oh no. And then after that, she just asked me every time like, oh, can I make out with him? Can I make out with him? And I'm like, that's not what I meant by this. Like sure, just make out with him. Oh, like I can't do this. 

Heather: Oh, babysitting drunk children. 

Zoe: Yeah. But then Kelsey was there and I was like, oh, am I gonna go home?

Like I don't wanna be lame and go home. It was like 12 at this time. But eventually. It was fine. And we ended up going to other bars. Mm-hmm. And I pulled myself together and we were seeing more places having fun. Those guys ended up coming with us, the British military men. Oh, perfect. [01:07:00] Kelsey had her own British military men too, so they were like friends, and we grabbed them and we went to the bar.

Okay. Another couple bars with them, and I'm like, trying to be out and cool as late as I can. But then I turned around and saw my cousin doing something else and I was like, okay, that's my sign to leave. It just went way too far. Yeah. And again, it's, it's not because I was judging her at all, it's because I know that I've done something mm-hmm.

Very similar to that. Or if not that, or if not worse in front of everybody as well. And that's just, I hate that I, I did that and I don't wanna confront that and I just need to go home. 

Heather: Yeah. 

Zoe: And I don't need to see my cousin like 

Heather: that. No. Right. And it's like, I wouldn't wanna see my sister. Yeah. You know?

That's crazy. I, I was gonna say something. Yeah. What was I just gonna say? 

Zoe: But my cousin had a blast. Yeah. Like that's why she went to Nashville. She wanted to get drunk. She wanted to meet guys. Yeah. And she wanted to have fun and I'm proud of her. She fucking did it. She had fun. Yeah. But yeah, my family [01:08:00] was all, everyone was drinking as soon as it turned.

12 o'clock or before that. Yeah. Drinking all day 20. The bars all day, like noon? No. Yeah. During the day. 

Heather: Oh 

Zoe: yeah. Okay. And, uh, 

Heather: is it fun for you to be around drunk? Like are you, are you, did you have fun? Like during the day were you like, oh, I'm catching this guy? There was 

Zoe: like a couple times where I definitely felt.

Just like, why am I here? Like I, I'm not having fun. 

Heather: Yeah. 

Zoe: One of those times was probably like when we were at this bar for way too long with my family and then my aunt came over to me drunk and was like, I'm so proud of you for being sober and for the podcast, and it's so cool to see you like being so vulnerable and I hate that you felt so lonely and like out of place as a kid, and I wish there was more I could do.

And I was like, first of all, don't make this about you. Yeah. Second of all, why are you. Having this conversation with a sober person when you're drunk as hell. Mm-hmm. But also, I know my family and I know that they would never have that type of open [01:09:00] conversation sober. Sober, because also we don't see when we are, when we're hanging out as a family.

Mm-hmm. Everyone's drinking. There's not a time ever where everyone's sober. 

Heather: Yeah. 

Zoe: You know? So it's like, obviously that's the only time it can happen. Love you Leah. Oh 

Heather: my 

Zoe: gosh. I do. 

Heather: Usually my family, like when we would get together, we'd be drinking, but recently no one's drinking. Yeah. 'cause of me. And I don't love that.

I know sometimes in the family there's like conversations to be had and I'm like, oh, I wish we were drunk for this. Yeah. Like, this is so vulnerable. Yeah. 

Zoe: But 

Heather: like, 

Zoe: it's, it's weird because obviously I don't wanna tell them to not drink and like, we're in Nashville, I knew they were gonna be drunk. Um, but yeah, like.

Heather: Do you? It's interesting. Do you think you would go on another trip like that? Like would you do Nashville again with the family? Same thing. Next year. I wouldn't 

Zoe: go to Nashville. I would go to like New Orleans. I would go somewhere else with them. Okay. And it's not like, like I think next year we're going to [01:10:00] Thailand.

In Thailand, everyone will be drinking too. It's not gonna be anything different, just because we're not in Nashville. Should I come? Yes. Okay. 

Heather: I'll book my own flight. I'll meet you there. 

Zoe: Meet me there entirely. Yeah. That would 

Heather: be very cute. It'd be so fucking cute. Do you, do you feel that your family, and specifically on this trip, like do you feel like they see your sobriety as a strength?

Or do you feel like they don't think about it at all? Like do you, do they care? I doubt 

Zoe: they don't like, I think they see it as a strength. Mm-hmm. For sure. I, I know they're proud of me, whatever, but I think that, yeah, it doesn't matter that they're still gonna drink. Also, I wanted to say we, I. There was a day where I wanted to go to some thrift stores.

Like that's all I wanted to do when I was there. Mm-hmm. Was go to a couple thrift stores and no one wanted to come thrifting with me. And thinking back on it now, I'm like, I went to so many bars with you guys to watch you guys drink. Yeah. You guys couldn't even go to two [01:11:00] stores with me and watch me shop.

Yeah. That's insane. 

Heather: It is kind of insane. That's insane. And you know, they probably don't see it like that. They don't see it like that at all. Zoe's doing her sober thing because she's sober. Yeah. So she's not drinking. It's like we can leave her to do her own thing. Yeah. It's like, hang out with me. 

Zoe: Do what I, I'm doing what you guys like to do.

Yeah. Please do the things that I like to 

Heather: do now. Yeah. Something I do wanna talk about. Yeah. Something happened in Nashville. Oh yeah. That is like one of your biggest fears. Mm-hmm. And do you wanna talk about it? 

Zoe: Yeah. So I didn't even remember that this thing happened until last weekend. I, it happened in Nashville, and then I shut it outta my mind and completely, honestly forgot about it until last week.

Heather: Yeah. 

Zoe: Um, but we were, I don't even remember what bar we were at or whatever. Um, and I had a sip of what I thought was my drink, but it was my cousin's drink. It was the end of her drink [01:12:00] mostly just ice and like watered down? Yeah. Like diluted. Yeah. It was diluted cocktail. 

Heather: Mm-hmm. 

Zoe: I, as soon as it happened, I had to talk it through in my mind to be like, oh my God.

Okay. I did just take a sip of that. There's probably 1% booze in it if that, this doesn't mean I need to order another one. Mm-hmm. Wait, so this also doesn't mean I need to tell anybody that this happened. Okay. Wait, 

Heather: let's go back for a second. Yeah. So you're at the bar. Yeah, there's drinks on the table and you don't, you don't realize that the one you've picked up is your cousins.

Yeah. All the drinks look the same. They're 

Zoe: all like in plastic cups. Okay. 

Heather: Yeah. Were you at someone's 

Zoe: house? Plastic cups? No. At the bars. They served it in plastic cups because then you could take it to go and walk the strip with it. Oh yeah. 

Heather: That's cool. 

Zoe: I know. I like that. No, if we were drinking, we would love it.

Yeah. Yeah. It's dangerous. Ooh, it's 

Heather: dangerous. 

Zoe: I know. 

Heather: Okay, so you're at the bar, 

Zoe: you're looking, you're gonna go get it. Grab a little drink. I grabbed what I [01:13:00] thought was my drink. I sipped it. I put it down and realized it wasn't mine. From the taste or from the? From the look of it. 

Heather: Okay. 

Zoe: I think it was from the look of it and not the taste.

And that moment. What happened to you? I think that's when I went through my mind like, okay, I, that's not my drink. Did you panic? I think so. I was just like, oh my God, I can't believe that happened because yeah. That's my worst fear. Mm-hmm. 

Heather: Yeah. You've talked about that recently, that that is 

Zoe: your 

Heather: biggest fear 

Zoe: is to like accidentally drink accidently.

Yeah. Um, but I just, I went through in my mind, like I, that happened 1% of alcohol doesn't mean I need to drink again. Mm-hmm. Doesn't mean I need to tell anyone that this happened because I was also like panicky that I had to tell someone. 

Heather: Yeah. 

Zoe: But also if I told my parents or anyone there, they would've been like, oh, oh my God, are you okay?

And they would probably make it a way bigger deal than it needs to be. 

Heather: Yeah. 

Zoe: Yeah. And me just. Saying, okay, I'm gonna pretend that didn't happen. Yeah. And delete it out of my [01:14:00] memory is I think exactly what I needed in that moment because I could just like go on with my day and just literally, I, it didn't happen to me.

Heather: Yeah. 

Zoe: I only just processed it last week and was like, oh my God, I can't believe my brain allowed myself to actually compartmentalize that. Yeah. Block it out. Yeah. Block it out like that. Yeah. Um, and now I'm so proud of myself for not drinking Yeah. And not going down a rabbit hole. 

Heather: Yeah. 

Zoe: Um, 

Heather: because that can go either way.

I have a, I can, I have a friend who is in Mexico and he ordered a non-alcoholic beer. Yeah. And they brought him a real beer and he drank it and halfway through he was like, oh shit. Yeah. And then he drank the rest of it and then ordered more. Yeah. So the reason it's scary is 'cause like, you don't know how your body's gonna feel.

Yeah. And I 

Zoe: do know so many stories like that that like, yeah. Someone accidentally drank something and then they ordered more. Is so, it's a very. It's a very big reason for a lot of relapses to happen. Yeah. And I knew that. Um, [01:15:00] yeah. And yeah, I don't, I think it was good that I didn't talk to anybody in that moment.

Yeah. 'cause it would just make it a bigger deal and it didn't need to be a big deal in that moment. I, 

Heather: yeah. Like you are. I didn't mean 

Zoe: to drink that. And I, yeah. I didn't want to, the intentions, it was an honest mistake. It wasn't my intention to drink it. Yeah. 

Heather: And I think like you have your sobriety, so on lock, you're like, I, you can go through that.

You're like, okay, yeah. This is what I did. This is what my intention was. I'm good. Body check. Yeah. That happened at, on my sister's birthday last year, and we had tiramisu at Julietta. And I was like, I had two bites of it. And I was like, fuck, this is rum. This is straight rum. And I was like, oh my God, what the fuck did I just do?

And I texted like two of my sober friends and I was like, is this a relapse? Like, I didn't know. And that's the thing, like. Getting sober, leaving rehab, having all of these rules, and you're following them and you're doing your job and you are like, I'm safe. Yeah. And then like, I feel like relapse and alcohol becomes so scary.

Yeah. And it [01:16:00] is because it's like ruined your life. Yeah. And so as you're trying to stay away from that, and then when it does happen, you're like, this is like exactly what I wanted not to happen. Yeah. This is my nightmare. What like, all I know is that if alcohol's in my body, I go nuts. I can't stop. And it's like, wait, wait, wait.

Yeah. But I didn't relapse in my brain at all. I only re, I didn't relapse. I, I had like a little thing. I actually, yeah. Did this thing and Yeah. And I think also too, when you relapse. W what I've learned about it. Yeah. And I think what's quite common is like the relapse behavior starts before the act of drinking.

Yeah. Or using a substance. It's like you've already set the intention in your head that like, I'm gonna drink. 

Zoe: Yeah. 

Heather: And 

Zoe: so missing. Well, and that's how I felt last summer. Like I wasn't going to my meetings for six plus months. Mm-hmm. And I was getting irritated, anxious, irritable. 

Heather: Yeah. 

Zoe: Like I was becoming like more angry at everything and everyone.

Heather: Yeah. 

Zoe: And it's because I wasn't going to my meetings or doing any of [01:17:00] the steps and then, yeah. 

Heather: Not around your like sober community. 

Zoe: Yeah. Isolated. Yeah. And then, yeah, something happened and I almost drank and then I had to be like, okay. Oh, you almost drank. Yeah. When was that? That was last summer where I opened my parents' cabinet to drink.

And then I, I got a Diet Coke out of there instead. Oh my God. Yeah. That's, and then I 

Heather: crazy. Crazy. 

Zoe: And then I was like, okay, I'm going to a meeting as soon as I get back to the city because clearly I'm fucked. Yeah. But yeah, leading up to that, I was acting out. Yeah. Because I was not like being right in my sobriety 

Heather: sometimes it's like, yeah, you've relapsed, but you're not drinking.

Yeah. It's like you're, I was acting like a crazy person before I was gonna drink. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting because, um, yeah, again, like I think you're often relapsing in your brain before, like addict behavior. So things like when I spill something in my bed Yeah. I'm like, oh my God. But I'm like, yeah, why [01:18:00] did you bring that water upstairs?

Yeah. Or that coffee upstairs and like put it in between your knees. Yeah. 'cause you're not thinking, you're like, you're think I'm shit. You're not thinking. Yeah. And then I spill it and I'm like, oh my God. I'm like sitting in like coffee and I'm just, this is what I used to do. Yeah. If like, my nightstand gets too cluttered.

Mm. It's like, okay. Yeah. What am I doing that's cluttering my brain? Let me release. Yeah. Because I'm gonna keep doing that until like I'm a hoarder in my room. Drinking like Yeah, but you gotta keep that brain right. Keep that brain right. But it's good. Okay. So you went to Nashville, the drinking capital of the world, you had a little accident.

Yeah, the drinking capital of the 

Zoe: world and the country capital of the world. And I don't even like country music. Oh, the country capital. I was like, it is not the 

Heather: capital. Oh, there's no capital of the world. No. Should there be, yeah, something like either Disneyland or like Area 51. Got it. Or like Las Vegas.

That makes sense. That makes sense. Yeah. But so you went to Nashville, you had a little baby [01:19:00] accident. Little baby accident. No problem, no 

Zoe: problem. Sweeped it under the rug. Yep. And I mean. My family and my cousin will only learn about this now. Yeah. Because I didn't even tell them. Yeah. But it's so good. I mean, you didn't have to tell them you had I didn't have to.

And I honestly, that would've made me way more anxious if I told them. Yeah. I even like debated about texting you or my sponsor about it in that moment. But I don't know, there was just something that like, I couldn't even address it in that moment. Yeah. 'cause and then I would be focusing on it. I didn't wanna focus on it.

I needed to just like numb it. I think that's probably because I was surrounded by booze. Yeah. And I knew it would be so easy to just get a drink, so I just needed to 

Heather: Yeah. 

Zoe: Just block it out 

Heather: for a little bit. Yeah. 

Zoe: And that's exactly what I did. 

Heather: That's exactly what you did. Yeah. And you're here and you're totally fine.

Totally fine. Well, I'm proud of you. I'm proud 

Zoe: of you too. Bye. Bye.[01:20:00] 

Heather: Okay. 

That just died. Oh no. But like two seconds ago. Nice. 

Oh my god. This is recording.

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