#13: Pizza Pizza
At the crack of dawn, Zoe and Heather dig into the myths we've all been sold—like "wine is self-care" and "drunk sex is better." This week's theme: propaganda we're not falling for. From Elon Musk's ketamine use to the pressure to be the life of the party, they unpack what doesn't hold up when you're actually paying attention. This episode is also available on youtube! Watch here. Get cozy, grab your fav NA beverage, and hit subscribe. Episodes come out every Wednesday. Proud of you! 💕
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Pizza Pizza: Transcript
Heather: [00:00:00] This podcast covers sensitive topics that may be difficult for some listeners. Please take care while listening.
Zoe: What'd say? And we're back. And we're back. Yeah. Absolute
Heather: delinquent. Shouldn't be running business. What kind of scam are you running here?
Zoe: What the fuck is going on there? Undrunkies,
Heather: good morning everybody. It's 7:00 AM It is 7:00 AM And I have already dis Heather. Yeah. So Zoe and I are now gonna start. Well, Zoe's been boxing. She been boxing. Yeah, I've been boxing,
Zoe: but she asked me. Now I've only been boxing for two months, like I'm not like that. Great yet guys. And like. I'm not that great, so don't expect me [00:01:00] to be like phenomenal.
Yeah. When you come watch Zoe in the park, don't have too high expectations, I guess. Yeah, just lower your expectations a little bit. Well, it's just so I seem like better than what you think I'm gonna be, you
Heather: know what I mean? Yeah. But I already am. I'm already intimidated by you in the sports of it all.
Because you just are that kind of person that I'm like, oh, she's probably good at this. But Zoe walked into my house and she was so excited. We're boxing together and then she's like, you know, it's hard though. Like, I dunno if you'll like it, because there's a lot of thinking.
Zoe: There is a lot of thinking and sometimes it frustrates me.
So I'm like imagining you being in that scenario, getting frustrated as well. And I hope that doesn't turn you off. I don't think it'll
Heather: turn me off because I am an athlete. You are an athlete. Been doing a lot of counting. Mostly to eight my whole life, right? Yes, yes, yes. Starting with five. I've been counting from five to eight my
Zoe: whole life.
Okay, good.
Heather: We're outside. We do it outside, so
Zoe: if it's nice out, we'll be boxing inside. Come find us. You know? Don't come find us. [00:02:00] Don't come find us. Don't come find us. Mm-hmm. Find us in a couple months maybe when Heather is better.
Heather: Yeah. You can find me in when I already have boxing under my belt because Yeah, we are not, we should not be alone in the park.
Zoe: We're just smart girls. And we're hot girls, so sorry. Mm-hmm. Great skin.
Heather: Great skin. I'm very nervous about the tariffs though. The tariffs are bumping up all my skincare like a thousand
Zoe: percent. I know. So you have to buy everything before July 1st. I mean, like the people who are already spending that much money on skincare will continue to spend that much money on skincare.
It's the people who are like only buying one product. Yeah. Are gonna be like, okay, well now I'm not gonna buy any fucking skincare.
Heather: Mm-hmm.
Zoe: Like, I restocked on all my stuff and thank God I get 50% off. That's crazy. Because it was $332 for my four products.
Heather: Yeah.
Zoe: And that would've been like almost $700 for the average person.
I'm like, I could not, you know?
Heather: That's why I stagger it. Yeah. That's why it look, feels like I'm always buying skincare, but I'm like, no, I'm
Zoe: just
Heather: like
Zoe: staggering
Heather: things. Yeah.
Zoe: It's a lot. It's, [00:03:00] it's a lot to have good skin and that's why I have to work at the clinic for the rest of my life. Mm-hmm. Because I need the discount.
Heather: Well, yeah. And skin is so important to mental health as well. Like I really, if I break out, I'm like, oh, I am now. I'm not going outside. Exactly. Now I don't like myself. Now we're gonna have a bad day.
Zoe: Yeah. And the box, going back to the boxing of it all, I'm like, oh, that's so much money for like private lessons for with the box or yeah.
Am I really gonna spend that much money? But it's, I love it. Yeah. That's what I wanna do. Instead of going out and drinking. Well that's the thing, like I wanna spend my money on private lessons with boxing with you. And it's good for my mental, it's good for my physical. It keeps me healthy. My brain healthy too.
Because you are thinking while you're doing it. Yeah. So, no, it's great.
Heather: I am. Love it.
Zoe: I'll drop $700. On 10 classes. Well, and you
Heather: think you That would be
Zoe: the most expensive class that I've ever done.
Heather: But the thing is like you get sober and you're like, oh, I'm saving all this money. I know. And then it's like, no you're not, because now you're investing in yourself.
'cause you like yourself now and you wanna like live in the world. Exactly.
Zoe: Well, we're [00:04:00] investing in ourselves instead of like literally putting poison into our bodies. So it's like so much better. It is so much better. So it's literally fine. Yeah. My parents just got back from Europe. They went to the south of Italy and then they went to Barcelona.
What's the town in the south of Italy? Is one of like the blue.
Heather: Oh, the blue zones. They went there. The blue zones.
Zoe: Yeah. Starts with an S, I dunno what it's called. I wanna say it's like Sacramento, but that's obviously not it.
Heather: Did they have a good time?
Zoe: They had a great time. So a
Heather: blue zone is a place you can visit?
Zoe: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. We might need to live there. We might need to live there.
Heather: It's just like clearly. So like calm, happy. Yeah. Easy. No stress. Yeah, stress. Probably. I very community based. Yeah. I like my neighborhood, but the community is weird. Mm. I don't know that I've ever really found a good, not yet.
Zoe: I feel like I don't have a community in my neighborhood 'cause I don't have much of a neighborhood.
Yeah. I need to move so I can have a neighborhood.
Heather: Yeah.
Zoe: Um, [00:05:00] it
Heather: would be a vibe one day to be able to like. Make a cup of coffee and then like, walk over to my friend's house. Yeah. And just like walk in the door. Yeah. That's what I want. That's what I want. But that means I have to leave the city. That's not happening.
'cause even if you have live in
Zoe: the city and you have a, a house, you can't leave your door unlocked. Mm-hmm. I used to leave my door unlocked all the time when I was drinking.
Heather: I hate that.
Zoe: Did I ever tell you about my pizza? Pizza story?
Heather: Mm-hmm.
Zoe: Oh my God. Tell me. Oh my God. I mean the amount
Heather: of times that I ordered pizza while drunk.
Yeah. And then I would wake up in the morning and open my front door and there would be pizza. So this man
Zoe: got into my house 'cause I didn't lock my door. So me and my ex, me and my ex we're drunk as hell. We're high. It's probably like four o'clock in the morning. We order pizza. Pizza, we have sex and go to bed and like forget about the pizza.
I wake up to my ex like shaking me, saying the pizza guys here. And I thought here [00:06:00] meant like.
Heather: In like outside the outside
Zoe: of the house.
Heather: Yeah.
Zoe: And I am like so drunk, but like waking up and all I hear is pizza, pizza, pizza, pizza, pizza, pizza. And I look up and I get up and I'm naked. I get outta my bed naked and I'm standing in front of the pizza, pizza guy in my living room.
He came into my house. Why? Because it was unlocked and he really wanted to deliver this pizza at fucking five in the morning.
Heather: And was this a point where you had to like pay in person or was I think so. Okay. Think, think I was like in what? In what world? Yeah. Would you be coming in? I think that's crazy behavior.
That is crazy behavior. If a stranger walked into my home, I know, and IWI stood in front of him naked. Yeah. I was
Zoe: butt naked somehow.
Heather: That's not the craziest piece to me. I'm like, yeah, that's your house. Yeah. You can be naked if you want. Why is he in there? Why is he in there? It's a really weird decision [00:07:00] for also, I, I think I paid
Zoe: for the pizza.
I didn't eat it. I went back to bed. I was just like, what
Heather: the fuck?
Zoe: Well, yeah. It's not pizza time now.
Heather: Not pizza time. Interesting. Yeah. How's that ex of yours? You still in love?
Zoe: No. I did fuck him. Of course, when I got sober. That's nice. Yeah. Um, that's nice. He was really drunk when he came over. He was a horrible kisser.
Mm-hmm.
Zoe: Dick was big. Mm-hmm. Didn't know how to use it. Come
Heather: on,
Zoe: come
Heather: on, come on. But I don't know if that was like
Zoe: a, because he was drunk or if that's like his normal. State, but I'm gonna assume it's the normal state. 'cause like when you're drunk it should enhance it. Okay. How's your mental health, Zoe? I mean, it's 7:00 AM and I feel good.
Um, too. What time did you wake up? I woke up at six. Yeah, I woke up at five. Nice. I am, I get so anxious about waking up early now because, I don't know. Because I [00:08:00] feel like I need eight hours and if I don't have eight hours and my day's ruined.
Heather: Yes, I do too. I was, you know, yeah. I was in bed at 11 last night and I was like,
Zoe: I know I'm not getting eight hours hours.
Heather: And
Zoe: that's so crazy to me. 'cause I used to not care about sleep at all. Yeah. So I'm like, why does this matter to me so much now? It's really frustrating. So yesterday when I went to the Cirque de Soleil yesterday mm-hmm. I went to the Circus Montreal's greatest export. Mm. Is it from Montreal? Yes. No, I didn't even sole that sole.
So I was just anxious when we were driving home last night. 'cause it was taking forever to get home. Mm-hmm. And I was like, I, I should be in bed right now. I should be in bed right now, but it's fine. I can have a nap later.
Heather: I was talking to Ian about, um, things in our life that we've missed. Like just sex, like things that, like everyone was taught but we, we missed like, for him, for him, I forget what it was.
Oh, it was like the months. Mm. He was in high school and he like knew, he knew the month, but he didn't know what order they [00:09:00] went in. Oh my God. One of my exes didn't know the month. Really? Okay. It's something I fun, fun of him so bad about it, but like Ian is so smart. Yeah. And he's like very good with numbers and he is very like, good with all this stuff.
So it's a weird thing that like a pattern for him didn't, but it was something that he never learned. Yeah. He maybe missed that day or something. Yeah. And for me it's maps. I don't get the concept of geography. I, I definitely didn't miss that day. I was there. I don't get it. I can't label map of Canada and every goddamn history class we had, the first icebreaker thing was like, everyone get a map and get some crayons and we're gonna label the map of Canada.
And I said, no, we are not. No.
Zoe: That stressed me out so much. My mom, I hated doing that. My
Heather: mom put a giant map of Canada outside my bedroom so that when I would wake up, I would see it across the hall. And she tried to get me to like buy osmosis. Yeah. You know the map of Canada and I still don't know it. No, I can't.
If you put a gun to my head right now, I can't do it. No. I know that Ontario is next to Quebec and then that's it for me.
Zoe: Yeah,
Heather: that's
Zoe: about
Heather: it
Zoe: for
Heather: me
Zoe: too, Katie. Thank you. That's good. I'm glad I don't know [00:10:00] much. I don't what's on the other side of Ontario even. Is it Edmonton? Is it Manitoba? Is it Manitoba?
Heather: We have to stop now. We have to stop now. We have to
Zoe: stop.
Heather: How is your mental health? Okay. My mental health? Honestly, right now, I'm having a really fun time. Me do. I like a 7:00 AM with you. I like this good. Um, I like when you go to the circus at night. I, yeah. Uh, no. I feel good. I had a really good conversation with somebody Yeah.
That
Zoe: I'm seeing with on my own. Yeah. About this podcast actually. So he's not gonna be listening anymore? No. Okay. And like both of our men do not listen to this podcast. Yeah. As it should be. This is for the girls. At first, I really liked it. Yeah. At first
Heather: I was like, this is so nice. Like, you're so supportive.
And I needed that kind of support and that kind of like hype man. Yeah. And like, he's so kind and like it's really sweet to have someone listen. Yeah. And, and then I, something happened where like he cross-referenced something in the pod and something that I [00:11:00] said to him and it was fine. Like it wasn't like a issue.
Yeah. But it was just in that moment I was like. Thank God that this is a, a nothing. Mm-hmm. Like it wa it was an easy conversation, but I was like, if that had been a fight or if you had heard something that I said mm-hmm. And like it sounded to you like a lie or it hurt your feelings, then we would've fought about this and I don't wanna do that.
Yeah. And I'm like, that will come up. Yeah. Because like, the way that we talk is like, sometimes I'm like, oh, like yeah, when I fuck or I'm fucking this person and it's like in. Not necessarily in real time, but it's like, about what we're talking about. Yeah. And I'm like, I don't want you to hear something that I did or, and also talking about like, fucking your exes is like not a vibe Yeah.
For some people, you know?
Zoe: And I'm like, well, especially because like it's more new for you. Yeah. So like, you don't need him to be listening to all of it and like, you'll tell him those things in private when it comes up. Yes. Naturally. Mm-hmm. But he shouldn't be like privy to that, you know?
Heather: Yeah. And I think it's, I think it's good too.
'cause I was [00:12:00] like, you're, you're gonna be date dating two people, like mm-hmm. The podcast version of me. Yeah. And the me. So like, just date me and get to know me through me. Yeah. And that was me. Like, I needed to put that boundary up because I was like, there's something happening where I can't, I don't feel super safe.
Mm-hmm.
Heather: And then I was like, oh. And then after that conversation we had, I was like. I feel good. And I also feel good that I like asserted my own Yeah. Feelings and needs. Yeah. Because like, it doesn't necessarily mean forever, but I'm like, right now, in this moment, I really like you and I want this to work, and like, this is what I need.
You set a boundary and he listened to you and he like fully accepted it and he respected it. Yeah. Yeah. And it's so nice. And I'm like, okay, we can tell men things. And it, I was like, is this gonna hurt his feelings? Are we gonna, but I'm also like, well, we're not catering to men on this podcast. Like, we're absolutely not.
Zoe: Yeah. That's good that you set that boundary and that he listened. Um, yeah,
Heather: I think like keeping work separate from
Zoe: our
Heather: relationship might be a really good thing. I'm
Zoe: not, I don't know anything about [00:13:00] relationships. I think so. I think my boyfriend doesn't even know this side of me fully yet. Like he's probably seen it when I'm out with my friends and stuff, but yeah.
This
Heather: is, but these are also intimate conversations and like Yeah. We're putting it out there. Yeah. But it's like they're intimate. Mm-hmm. And I'm intimate with you so. Be intimate with me and not this. Yeah. And then I think everything will be kosher
Zoe: and Yeah. And maybe like a year or something. Like if he wants to listen, he can.
Oh my God. I
Heather: love when you future trip about this podcast. Like, we'll be doing this in a year. Okay. So let's get into some sober news. Our mental health is fine. It's fine. Move on. Okay, so we're getting into some sober news today and um, this one we just have to, because it's so in the news, but Elon Musk is on drugs, he's on them, he's on drugs.
And I mean, there's a lot of directions we can go with this. But first of all, I wanna talk to you about what ketamine is. Yeah. 'cause I've never
Zoe: done it, I don't think.
Heather: You don't think so? Can you snort it?
Zoe: Yeah. Yeah. So ketamine, I know there [00:14:00] was one thing that I snorted that wasn't Coke and people told me it wasn't so, it might've been that Molly.
It burned. No. Okay. It wasn't Molly, it wasn't Coke. Maybe it was Ketamine and it burned way more than Coke.
Heather: Maybe it was crack.
Zoe: Maybe you got a rock in there. Maybe. But I remember people were like telling me like, yo, it's not Coke, so be careful. Where were
Heather: you?
Zoe: I was at a house party. Okay. Yeah. And
Heather: you were like, Moger.
I was like, okay, let's try it. I know. Wasn't that funny? Was that before the fentanyl times? Like were you ever worried about fentanyl?
Zoe: No. Yeah, there was like, but like I feel like when you're an addict, you're not
Heather: like that concerned. You're not, but it's also crossing over into fentanyl territory when you start taking pills, like when you're drinking.
Well, my friend in high school used to sell
Zoe: her mom's fentanyl. Really? Yeah. What happened to her mom? Her mom I think had like an accident and just like, had a bunch of fentanyl and she, her mom was abusing it too. So her mom was getting like lots of [00:15:00] fentanyl.
Yeah.
Zoe: And she would like, yeah. Steal her mom's fentanyl and sell
Heather: it.
I was talking to someone about, you know, their parent had gone through cancer mm-hmm. And hospice and passed. They were saying, yeah, like I was in charge of the morphine. I was in charge of administering the pills and I guess it wasn't like a IV morphine. It was, it was pills. And, and they were like, give her them when?
When she needs them. Yeah. And that's like hard to track, right? Yeah. Because you also don't know really, you can't really tell how much pain someone's in when they're not telling you. And so, but she was like, I could've pocketed them. Yeah. She's not an addict. Yeah. But I was thinking, we just had this conversation on the weekend and I was like, the place in my sobriety where I'm at now, if I was going through that with a parent, I, I might take them.
Zoe: Yeah. I don't take them. Don't think I would to be in charge of that. No. I think I would say not for me. Someone else needs to be in charge of this. Yeah. Yeah.
Heather: That's the smartest [00:16:00] thing. Yeah. I didn't even think about that. Yeah, that's, I would need you probably to be like, Hey, so Heather can't be in charge of the pills, but like, but.
I was like, not even in a, like, I'm gonna take all these pills and then drink. But I was like, it reminded me of Dax Shepard when he relapsed. Mm-hmm. He was like, with his dad and it was like a morphine for you. A morphine thing. Well, my
Zoe: boyfriend that I did after rehab, he got into pills because his friend in high school just had extra pills and was like, yeah, like, do you wanna try these?
And he was like, yeah, I guess so. And then just tried them and then got addicted and got all of his friends addicted. It's like, that's, it's that easy. It's that like, you take one, you're addicted. Right. These pills are dangerous.
Heather: So the thing about ketamine is ketamine is a class three narcotics. So ketamine is one of these things that's like, it's not an opiate, it's a, it's a anesthetic.
Right. Oh, okay. So it kind of, it, what it does is kind of detach your brain from your body. Mm-hmm. That's what you want when you have anesthesia, right? Like you want your brain, it's an upper or a downer. [00:17:00] Well. That's the thing, right? So ketamine as it is, as an anesthetic, is a downer, okay? Because it's, you're disconnecting your brain and your body got it.
And so your nerves are compressed. You're like, you're, you're compressed. And we like downers because we're alcoholics. You fucking love downers. Yeah. However, now in the early, like, like 2010s, ketamine started to be, people started to research ketamine in a way that wasn't just anesthesia. Now, anesthesia, it's for people, but also ketamine is used for animals, right?
Yep. People are constantly shooting animal drugs into themselves. Stop doing that, but so. 2010s, it's being researched and now people are kind of using it as treatments. You've heard of ketamine therapy? Yeah. It's big in like, it's big in the mental health world. It's big. Uh uh, the girl, Hailey Raw, who hosts Girls Camp podcast.
Mm-hmm. She's doing ketamine therapy. Mm-hmm. Mormon wives. Mm-hmm. Um, Jen and Zach, do you watch it? I've seen clips. I haven't watched an [00:18:00] episode. See, their marriage is really bad. Really bad. Yeah. He's very abusive and she just is a Mormon and they're
Zoe: doing ketamine therapy, but like, they're not Mormons because they're not following the rules.
Like, that's what I don't get about that show. I'm like that. You're not Mormons. Then
Heather: I think in every religion, people tend to pick and choose the Bible. Right. It's like this religion means love, but not for the gays. Yeah. Or like, you know, we support women but not if they are sexually active. Its literally
Zoe: the most confusing thing ever.
And it's,
Heather: yeah, really annoying. So. Ketamine is being used as a therapy. Mm-hmm. When you are a drug resistant person. So if you have tried antidepressants. If you've tried SSRIs, got it. Yeah. And they're not working for you, chemically, they're not working. And that could be anything, right? That could be you or me.
Trauma has a lot to do with it. PTSD has a lot to do with it. Environment, drug use. Mm-hmm. Lots, right? Mm-hmm. People are getting off of drugs and then doing ketamine. Mm-hmm. As a therapeutic [00:19:00] means to calm your addiction and like divert. Yeah. Is it kind of like suboxone? No, because it's a, because it's, we have to do some research on that.
We have to. I think it's a pill. We gotta get a person on here. I know. We need to get a person. If you're a person of the drug world. Come on. I know a person. Oh, I got a, I got a, I got a professor. I know. Okay. Okay. So ketamine, so we've also heard of like K holes. You've heard of this K hole. Of course, this is also of very big, it's pride.
So there's a lot of K holes going around right now. Mm-hmm. But basically that's what it is when you take Ketamine as more of a party drug. So when you're not, when it's not prescribed to you, when you take it as a party drug, you can get high. Elon Musk said that himself. He's like, oh, well when you take it in small doses, it's therapy, but when you take too much of it, you get really high, duh, duh.
Mm-hmm.
Heather: So what it does is it disconnects your brain from your body, and then you're kind of living in this really nice, ethereal, no problems. Mm-hmm. Kind of way, which is a nice feeling. Yeah. But now we're thinking, okay, people are doing ketamine. So what ketamine is [00:20:00] doing is it's, it's constantly numbing you.
Right? Yeah. Which I.
Zoe: Think you're still taking drugs. Yes. You're still taking drugs. You're still taking drugs, you're still relying on something. Yeah. But this is where it gets confusing too, because like people who take antidepressants mm-hmm. Every day. Mm-hmm. That's way lower of a drug. Right. Like you're not living in like that numb state.
No, but I also Okay, so but also like people who take antidepressants, like you are still relying on something.
Yes.
Zoe: And a lot of people, some people in the meetings mm-hmm. Are against taking Okay. Antidepressants because they think it's still like you're relying on something, you're still taking a drug. I don't really like those type of people because like, no, we, if you need it, you need it.
Yeah. Um. That's what I think. But also it is like a weird thing where like, yeah, you are sort of relying on it. Are you gonna lean off [00:21:00] of it? Yeah. What's the long-term goals for this? Like you have to be aware of that. And you can't just like kind of, unless you're actually like OCD or whatever, like very much need forever.
Heather: Yeah.
Zoe: I don't know. It's a tricky situation because I am not
Heather: Well, you're not on them. Right. I'm not on them. And you've never been on them. No. And it is confusing. I think there's a lot of like misinformation, but also for me. So you just said you should know your plan and how long you should be on them?
Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. I didn't know when I went on Erline. Well, I think they kind of
Zoe: just want you to take them forever because Yeah, of course. It's big pharma. Exactly. So that's why I'm like, you should be aware of that's what they want from you. Yeah. But if it's a possibility where you can lean off of them, isn't that kind of the goal?
Yeah, I
Heather: think, well, I think it's interesting because yes, so we're talking about like SSRIs or antidepressants, anti-anxiety. The thing about the, the difference between those Mm. And like doing cocaine. Yeah. Or like doing something that's gonna boost your [00:22:00] serotonin. Is that like taking an SSI isn't changing your mental state and your capacity for like taking in the world.
Yeah. Right. It's not changing who you are as a person. What it's doing is creating serotonin in your brain. Yeah. Because if you're a person with depression and anxiety, there is not you as a person chemically fly. There's flying here, fly, fly, fly, fly. Cannot make the serotonin in your brain. Yeah. So the SSRIs do that for you now.
And I get that. I've been on SSRIs for seven years, six years now. I don't make my own serotonin. So when I miss, well, when I miss a dose, it fucks me up immediately. Yeah. Like the next day I'm fucked. I'm like really dizzy. I'm like, I get brain shocks. So that's not good. Yeah. So I am addicted to them. I'm reliant on them, right?
Yeah. A reliant, addicted. Yeah. I can't get off them without like medical intervention. Yeah. What ketamine does is it doesn't touch your serotonin at all. Okay. It, it goes for your glutamate. So glutamate is basically what it [00:23:00] does is it reconnects, ketamine will reconnect your brain and the wires that are connecting to your brain.
So kind of like when you like open up one of those things that I have in my apartment for all the light, it's like the switches. Yeah. So basically you're like turning it on. Yeah. Because it's off. Like you're just so down here you take ketamine and it goes for the, the mother switch. And ketamine
Zoe: is being used for people who SSRIs don't work on.
Heather: Yes.
Zoe: So it's like you, these people need more.
Heather: Yeah. The point is that SSRIs and traditional forms of, yeah. Therapy because when you take SSRIs and you when you're on antidepressants or anti anxiety, you're also supposed to be doing other therapies. Yeah. Like psychotherapy, talk, therapy, all that stuff. But ketamine feels really fucking good, right?
Mm-hmm. Because ketamine will take you from zero to a hundred really, really quick. Whereas SSRIs, it takes a few weeks to kind of settle into your body and then maybe doesn't work. You gotta switch. Ketamine is like you're in, right? Mm-hmm. And that's amazing. And it's probably so expensive,
Zoe: so it's not like for the average, average, I'm sure it's [00:24:00] person,
Heather: you know?
Yeah. I don't know how it's covered here in Canada. Yeah. I don't know if we prescribe it in like the way that they do in the States, but often when we're seeing ketamine use, it's intravenous, right? Like, you go to a therapy, you get it done, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You're good to go. What Elon Musk is doing, and what other people do is when it's prescribed to you, you can take it as a nasal spray.
Mm-hmm. That gets confu, that gets tricky because the nasal sprays in general, so nasal sprays I find are addictive. Mm-hmm. So I used to use a nasal spray because I was like, it's so dry in New York. Mm-hmm. And like everything was so dry. So I would use a nasal spray 'cause I was getting nose bleeds. Yeah.
But I couldn't stop using the fucking nasal spray because it was like opening up my sinuses. Right. And when I would stop it, it would, my mom got addicted to like a steroid nasal spray once. Interesting. And it's just like these things that are on hand. Yeah. It's like, it's like having a vape in your hand.
Vape. That's what exactly what I was thinking. Yeah. Yeah. It's like if you were able to have this thing walking around with you, why wouldn't I? Yeah. Your tolerance is going up quicker. Yeah. It's, it's. I It's in your pocket. Yeah. It's [00:25:00] dangerous. And so that's what Elon Musk is doing, right? He's taking too much.
He's coming into the office. He's on shrooms, he's on Coke, he's on ketamine. He's like outwardly talking about his ketamine use, which
Zoe: is crazy to outwardly talk about it because like I'm sure all of these guys are on so many drugs. Yeah. You know? Yeah. But they're not talking about it. The privilege of drugs is
Heather: to be able to do them under the guise of like, this is creative.
Yeah. And we're making a profit. Yeah. And I think that that's true for a lot of drugs. Like I think you people start drugs and they're like, let's go cocaine. We're getting things done. We're starting this business. That's how it starts. It starts fun. Yeah. And then it's like, oh shit.
Zoe: Well, he had to, can't do anything without it.
He had to leave the White House and is he
Heather: gonna have to go to a rehab? No. Okay. He'll never go to rehab. Oh, fun. He'll probably, that would've been fun. He'll probably just create No, no, no. Here's the other thing. If it's not ruining your life Yeah. But until it ruins your life. But why would it ruin his life?
He has a kabillion dollars and if he doesn't feel well after his, like ketamine drop, he'll just, and there's another [00:26:00] drop to make it. Yeah. What will happen is he'll probably die. Yeah. He'll probably die in the way that Matthew Perry died. Right. Yeah. It's the same thing, ketamine. Yeah. You're taking too much, you're not taking what's prescribed.
You're taking more 'cause your tolerance is going up and ketamine feels so good. Yeah. That's the thing. When you give addicts ketamine, they're going to love it. Yeah.
Zoe: Well, I feel like anyone would love that. Anyone would love, like, it sounds amazing.
Heather: Anyone, but we have a thing as addicts, the um, what's the, uh,
Zoe: the wanting more of everything?
No, the
Heather: like quick gratification. Yeah. Like immediate gratification. Yeah. We have that more than the average person. Yeah. And I'm like, if you gave me ketamine and then said like, if my therapist was like, Hey Heather, do you wanna try, try ketamine therapy? It's gonna make you really high. Yeah. I wouldn't even hear the therapeutic side effects.
I would just be like,
Zoe: yes. And the fact that he can Yeah. Just have it whenever he wants and carry it around. Yeah. It's So, it's also very privileged though, too. Like I wonder how much that would cost for the average person. Um, probably not accessible.
Heather: Well, he says that he takes it because, um, it [00:27:00] helps him take a break from his own brain.
Yeah. Which to me isn't, that's not what a doctor would say. Yeah. That's not, that's not how they're prescribed. Yeah. Right. Yeah. It's, it's to enhance the person you, it's to enhance your mood. Yeah. It's not to, it's for severely depressed people. It's not to like completely disconnect your brain from your body.
Yeah. Because that's an addict. Yeah. That's what we're doing. That's what we're, that's what we are trying to do every day. Yeah. Yeah. So ketamine that. Brain body disconnect. Yeah. It's really like a nervous system. Like it really disconnects you. You don't have control when you are doing that much. Your body doesn't have the muscle memory anymore, right?
Mm-hmm. Like that's what it's doing. Your body can kind of function on drugs as is because you've been doing it your whole life. Yeah. But the more and more you take, the more reliant your body is on those things and they forget how to work. And then also if you
Zoe: have to pee. Yeah. You feel
Heather: like you have to pee and you go to the bathroom,
Zoe: you can't pee.
You
Heather: can't pee. Yeah. Because your brain can't tell your body to pee. And that is why a lot of drug addicts die on the toilet. Yeah. Because they're [00:28:00] trying to pee. They can't. Yeah. And then they have a heart attack. Yeah. Elvis Presley. Wow. Yeah. So. We're gonna see what happens with Elon Musk. I don't wanna talk too much about who him as a person, because obviously that's a, a lunatic person, but I just think it is interesting that, yeah, we're watching people do ketamine as a privileged drug.
Yeah. As a drug that's being spoken about as a clinical thing. Yeah. And I'm like, it's no different than any other drug. You're just pretending you're not doing Yeah. You're not doing it in a clinical way. No. Ketamine therapy on its own. I would love to have someone come in here and tell us about it. I don't wanna do it.
Yeah.
Heather: But I do. I would like to know the actual process, the addictiveness of Well, I feel like I watched
Zoe: a show and they were doing it and you had to like go into the doctor's office to do it every week. Yeah. Or like every month or something. Yeah. But when you, it's not like you don't take it home type thing.
Yeah. Yeah. The problem is when you can take drugs home. Yeah. Can't take drugs home. That's really it.
Heather: Yeah. Because it doesn't even matter. Like, [00:29:00] it doesn't matter where you are in your mental health or your sobriety journey. It's like. You can't just be around drugs. I can't have loose drugs in the house. No.
I was gonna go to LCBO for something to get like a, I wanted to make a espresso martini, like a, like a non-alcoholic one. And I was looking up like where, and then it was like, oh, LCBO has this like non-alcoholic thing. And I was like, I can't go into the LCBO. I haven't been in there. Have you been in
Zoe: No. I remember my babysitter, I used to babysit like a few years ago and I was meeting the mom because I hadn't seen her in a couple years when I was like four or five months sober.
And her husband texted me asking to bring over a bottle of wine fully knowing that I was sober. And I was like, Ugh. Her husband yeah, asked me to bring a bottle of wine to their house. Why? Because I guess they were gonna drink and like they needed wine fully knowing I was sober. Okay. That's crazy. And I texted my sponsor and I was like, do I get this?
Like, I feel like I want to get this. And she was like, yeah, if you want to, you [00:30:00] can. Okay. You can get a bottle. Like, that's fine if you feel safe.
Heather: Oh, wow.
Zoe: And I just like texted her as soon as I got it and I was, I was fine. And it felt like a big accomplishment for me. Okay. Like, I did feel really good that I could do that and like give my babysitter like a bottle.
Mm-hmm. And still be okay. In my sobriety.
Heather: I, I, I don't actually know my thoughts on that because, I mean, everyone is individual. I just mean, well I just wanna
Zoe: be
Heather: like
Zoe: when I am, I don't know if my friends we to bars were coming over one day and like they wanted to drink or if my one friend was getting married, like, I don't know, maybe I would buy her a nice bottle.
Like I wanna be able to do those things still. Yeah.
Heather: I don't know that I need to. Yeah. It's interesting. I have thought about that and I'm like, I, I for people's, like when like my friend Paige moved to New York and I'm like, do I bring a bottle of champagne? And I'm like, but I don't do that. Yeah. Drinking isn't part of my life anymore.
Yeah. And I, and I don't want it to be
Zoe: Yeah. But I just don't wanna be like unable to do something. Totally. You know, like I don't [00:31:00] wanna be like unable to go into somewhere. Totally. So I wanna, and I don't
Heather: share those same concerns. Yeah. Like I don't have that feeling where I'm just like, oh, I don't need to go into the LCBO.
The LCBO if you're not Canadian, is like our big Canadian grocery store of alcohol. We don't have those like little bodegas. We have
Zoe: the LCBO. I mean now you can get it anywhere but. Um,
Heather: but yeah, I, yeah. And, and you know, I think about that too when I'm thinking about kids. Yeah. If, like, if I did have a kid and they were like, can you buy me and my friend's alcohol?
We're 17 or 18 years old, even let's say they're 18. Yeah. You can drink in Quebec, but you can't drink here. And they're like, can you buy some alcohol? I don't think so. It's not, yeah. A thing that I do and I don't have kids, I don't know how I would feel, but like, I also like don't really feel like I wanna be encouraging.
Right. Alcohol use, I don't wanna discourage it. I don't care. I'm not a prohibitionist, but I, I don't think that like my contribution to my friends is ever gonna be a bottle of alcohol. And that's just how I feel. Yeah. It has nothing [00:32:00] to do with like, where my sobriety is at. Yeah. I'm just like, yeah, I, maybe my challenge is like figuring out what else Yeah.
I can do for people or what else I can, because. Alcohol's been like my thing forever. Yeah. And I'm like, what do these people actually like
Zoe: and
Heather: need?
Zoe: Well, that's how I feel like when people come over to my house, like usually people would bring a bottle of wine, right? Yeah. And now they don't bring me anything and I'm like, guys, you can like bring me like a box of coke, Coca-Cola.
You can bring me like some flowers. Yeah. You can like bring me food, cookies, a bag, cupcakes, whatever. Yeah. Pair shoes. Pair shoes. Mm-hmm. They don't, which is interesting as a sober person because Yeah. When flowers would be good. Yeah. Like when I invite friends over, usually it would be in past years, a bottle of wine.
Yeah. But now they just show up with nothing and I'm like, well, 'cause it's convenient. Convenient. Still.
Heather: Convenience. It's convenient. Bringing a bottle of wine isn't, is, it's not, um, it's not like a kindness. Yeah. It's, it's just a convenience. Yeah. 'cause I was going to the liquor store anyway. Anyway. [00:33:00] Yeah. So like Yeah.
Going out of your way to do something else. Yeah, that's true. I mean, that is kind of nice. Yeah. Well I was thinking I wanna have, I think I wanna have a birthday party. Yeah. From my 31st. Yeah. Here. I think you should too. But yeah. I like the drinking, like none. I mean, my friends don't drink. I'm sure some of my friends drink.
Yeah. But I'm like, I'm not gonna buy alcohol. Yeah. Like, I will only have, so
Zoe: when I had my party, I expected people to drink, obviously. Yeah. Um, thank God no one got like too drunk though, which I was. At first, I was surprised that no one got too drunk. But then after I'm thinking about it, I'm like, oh yeah, of course they didn't get too drunk.
This is my house. I'm sober. Yeah. And it's my house. Yeah. And yeah, my friends respect me, I guess, which Thanks guys. Liya.
Heather: Yeah.
Zoe: Um, but I think I always have the rule of you can't leave booze at my house. Okay. Yeah. That's my rule. That's a good idea. There can never be booze in my fridge. I'd never wanna open my fridge and there'd be booze.
Heather: Yeah.
Zoe: That's a big no-no for me. My parents know that. My parents' friends know that they've messed up a couple [00:34:00] times and I have opened the fridge and there's booze and it's always my parents' fault, which is super annoying. I'm like, okay. My friend, friend, oh, in your fridge, mom and dad. Mom and dad. Come on, come on.
Um, it's, yeah. I think that's where my boundary is with booze in my house. Okay. It can be in my house, people can be drinking in my house, but when everyone's gone, you need to bring your booze with you. There can't be any leftover.
Heather: Okay. That's smart. Yeah. Yeah. I, I kind of feel like I don't want it in my house.
Yeah, that's totally fine. Like, that feels a little like, um, like, uh, like modest. Yeah. But I kind of am like, it's not, it's never been in this house. Yeah. This, I bought this after I got sober. Yeah. And I'm like, there's never been alcohol or coke or any kinda shit in this house. Mm-hmm. I kind of like it.
Yeah. Mind you, if you're a person who's like three of your friends are coming and you don't really know everybody and you're nervous and you wanna like, have a little pre Of course, that's fine. Yeah. I just, I don't know how
Zoe: I feel about it yet. Yeah. Because I'm like,
Heather: Ooh,
Zoe: my house. I mean, I guess you'll never [00:35:00] know how you feel
Heather: until like it happens.
Yeah.
Zoe: You know? Yeah. And I think, but I'm out
Heather: around alcohol. I like go to bars and stuff. I'm just like, this is my house. I know. I'm so sneaky. I'm such a sneaky little shit. I don't, I don't know if I trust myself to be honest with
Zoe: you. I
Heather: don't know. Well, I remember
Zoe: like the first Christmas I was at when I was sober, I like walked by a bunch of.
Booze.
Yeah.
Zoe: Like on the way to the bathroom or something. And I was alone, so I'm like walking and I feel my hand just reach for it. And I'm like, oh, nope,
Heather: get outta there. Stop that. Kidding. Like we're sober. All of us. Yes. All of my parts, all of my hands. So we're gonna get into the segment. Yes. What this podcast was meant to be for an hour and a half.
Yeah. But we're gonna get into some sober propaganda. Some drinking propaganda. Drinking propaganda, which I feel like drinking and propaganda goes so well together because like when prohibition happened. Mm-hmm. I feel like that's what it was. It was like, drinking is bad. It's ruining our youth. Yeah.
Ruining, yeah. And where did that go? Because like that was true. [00:36:00] Um, I think people need to drink. Yeah. I think people need to party. Like people can't handle the stress of their own lives. And then you get groupthink, which, you know, I don't like groupthink. Yeah. And then everyone's like, well, if you're doing it, I'm doing it.
Let's all do it.
Zoe: Yeah.
Heather: However, you and me would've crushed prohibition time. First of all, you would remember I sent you that thing and it was like that man who like wrote his donkey and was like a, a, a alcohol salesman during prohibition. Yeah. That would've been you. Yeah. I would've just been, I would've been in one of those big houses, just drinking.
Just drinking. But there is a trend going around with TikTok right now. Yeah. It's like propaganda. I'm not falling for. Yeah. And it feels we're following the trend, we're following the trend, and it we're being trendy. Often the trend is like very feminist, which I love. 'cause I feel like it's like mostly girls.
Mm-hmm. Which is, or, or that's just my algorithm because Yeah. You know, but. I wanted to do it with alcohol. Mm-hmm. We wanted to talk about some major propaganda with alcohol and sobriety. Mm-hmm. And we just put together a little list that I think are probably, especially coming into summer mm-hmm. I think are like the most important impactful ones.
Yeah. [00:37:00] So number one, I would say wine is self-care. Wine is self care. So I was, we just talked about this, but I was watching Ginny in Georgia. Yeah. And this, I mean, it's such a good season, but Georgia is going through like a murder trial right now. Okay. And I don't know if I watched the second season or not.
Yeah, I know. I watched it
Zoe: first. I love this high school drama. My friend Anna Sophia, shout out. I love that name. She has a song that was in season two and in season three.
Heather: Stop this. Yes. Stop that. She DJ Dundas West yesterday. This girl,
Zoe: yeah,
Heather: I know about this. Yeah. Okay. Very fun. Yeah. Oh, that's amazing.
Yeah. Good for her. The women, the woman, um. So I'm watching Janine in Georgia and like she's going through this murder trial and all these things, and she's stressed and every night she's just sitting on the couch like nursing this like glass of wine and like I'm watching this thing being like, yeah, I would do that too.
Yeah, like your life is pretty much over and like you're doing this, but I'm like,
Zoe: right. There's so many other things that like. You [00:38:00] can change from wine to self-care. You can do like a tea, get a Yeah. Nice little sober cocktail. You know,
Heather: I think the thing about alcohol and wine specifically with like the mommy wine culture.
Yeah. Which I was fully in. Yeah. Like I, I was never a mom, but I was like, well, everyone drinks wine at the end of the day. Yeah. Well
Zoe: that's like when my one friend was like, yeah, I'm just gonna go home and drink a bottle of wine or drink a glass of wine and clean my house. Mm-hmm. That made me feel like I am allowed to do that.
Yes. As a girl, yes. I can go home and drink a glass of wine and clean my house. Meanwhile I drink the whole bottle of wine and clean nothing and clean like half of a cupboard.
Heather: Yes. That's what I would do. I would start out so like manic. Yeah. And then be like, wait, but then you take the depressant and you're like, ah, nevermind the house.
That's fine. Yeah. There's like everything is sticky. Yeah. Um, I think also. The idea that alcohol is an immediate relaxant. It is true. Yeah, that is true. You drink it and it, it decompresses your nervous system. [00:39:00] However, the, on the back end of that mm-hmm. It's not actually doing that. You know, it's not to be like, I it's gonna cause more problems for you.
Yeah. The next day to be like, I need wine to relax. Yeah. Okay. But what we know about alcohol is that it messes with your anxiety. Yeah. It does. Like the come down from that, the hangover. Yeah. It is a withdrawal. It is. Your body needs more. Exactly. And it's anxious. So honestly.
You might
Heather: be getting a good sleep, but wine has nothing to do with self-care.
Alcohol, yeah. Have a
Zoe: tea that's like, has actual good ingredients in it.
Heather: Well, it's interesting to like, it's gonna
Zoe: calm your nervous system and it's not gonna cause you anxiety in the morning.
Heather: It's interesting to like come home and be like, I'm gonna cook a really nice, healthy dinner. Mm-hmm. I'm gonna have a glass of wine.
I'm gonna have another glass of wine and then get into the bath. Mm-hmm. And with bath salts and just be really relaxed and healthy and calm and it's like, right. Mm-hmm. But there's poison in your body. Yeah. So all the self-care stuff you're doing is amazing. And then you stop it because you put alcohol in your system.
Zoe: Yeah. The alcohol is ruining your self-care. And it
Heather: doesn't necessarily feel [00:40:00] like it is. No. But the reframe of alcohol is not self-care. Yeah. Is just so true. Because it's not, it's not. Water is self-care. Tea is self-care. I know that's boring, but wine isn't self-care.
Zoe: Yeah. Wine. If you're a normal person and you can drink wine is a celebration.
Yes. You know, like celebrate at the end of the week. Celebrate for a friend's party. Yeah. Wine isn't something that you do when you're trying to take care of yourself.
Heather: Yeah. But it is though. That's what we see. It's what I remember being a kid and being like, I can't wait. Uh, like this was how I wanted to drink.
I was like, I can't wait to turn 19 and I can drink wine on the couch and watch tv. Yeah. And that is what I did. I was so excited for that. Mm-hmm. So it is, it does feel like my life is so stressful and now I drink. Yeah. And that's what we did with dancing too. I mean, when you're in college, that's the whole thing.
It's like you work, work, work, you study, study, study. And then it's like, now we're gonna get drunk and fuck off. Yeah. It's like you're not relaxing your body at all. Your body is not happy. Yeah. What you [00:41:00] need instead of relaxing what you in instead of that like instant relaxation. Mm-hmm. What you need is like to reflect at the end of the day.
Yeah. Oh my God. People are gonna be like, this is so cringey, Heather, but like, sorry. Reflecting at the end of the day is actually what your body needs. Mm-hmm. To relax. Yeah. It needs to process the entire day. Tip to tail. Yeah. Calm your nervous system. Sometimes we go through the day and you're like, oh my God, what did I say?
What did I do? Mm-hmm. You drink wine at the end of the day so that you don't have to think about it. Don't think about it. Yeah. You should. Yeah. You could think about your day, you know, what makes you a better person? Do you, do you reflect? Yeah.
Zoe: I feel like I don't, oh, I journal. Mm-hmm. I feel like I'm like always go, go, go.
And then when I'm home I just like do my skincare routine, listening to a podcast and I'm not. Really sitting with my thoughts that much. Hmm.
Heather: Interesting. Have you ever journaled?
Zoe: I was journaling a lot in rehab. Yeah. Well obviously what you gonna do? What else am I gonna do? I journaled a lot, maybe six months out of rehab as well.
Right. Every day I [00:42:00] was journaling.
Heather: I just fell out of
Zoe: it and then I fell out of it.
Heather: Yeah. Yeah. It comes in phases though. Yeah. I find like putting pressure on like journaling every day. Yeah. Even in rehab, I have that like five minute journal. Mm-hmm. And like you just write something every day. Yeah. Or even, no, we had the class, we had class in rehab and every day you had to write like three things, like one line of like whatever.
And I never did it 'cause I don't do homework. Right. But I'm like, this is fucking bullshit. Stop making me do things. Yeah. But if you can kind of get into
Zoe: the I do wanna be more reflective, I feel like it would be beneficial. Yeah. I would maybe give me more like serenity.
Heather: I think you would like it. 'cause I think you would maybe reflect on how fucking good of a job you're doing.
Oh, that's nice. That's really nice. That almost made me cry for a second. I know why. For no reason. No, we literally love each other so
Zoe: much.
Heather: Get over, get away
Zoe: from me. Um,
Heather: okay. You need alcohol to have fun.
Zoe: I mean. It helps. [00:43:00] Yeah. Sometimes
Heather: I think what we've learned, I was
Zoe: talking about this with, um, one of my sober people last night at the circus.
Um, 'cause I was telling her like, I still go out and like, I'm going to Electric Island with my boyfriend at the end of the month. And she was like, what? Like, you still go out. Like that's crazy. I would feel so awkward in my body. Mm-hmm. And I was like, yeah. Like I do felt, I did feel awkward in my body the first few times, but yeah.
You get used to it. You get used to being able to have fun without alcohol. Well,
Heather: and that's the thing too,
Zoe: it's like feeling awkward in your body. We all have that. Yeah. But a lot of people don't ever feel that because they're numbing themselves Yes. All the time. They never get to experience that awkwardness.
Yes. Of like, I don't know what to do with my hands right now. You know? It's, it's so important. We're so much more stronger in elite than everyone else because we can feel that awkwardness. Yeah. And we have to get over that hump. And it is very hard. I'm not saying any of this is easy. Mm-hmm. It's hard as hell, but.
Once you get through it, you feel like a [00:44:00] superhero. Yeah. Like you feel like you can do anything in the world.
Heather: Yeah. Well that's the thing. Being able to, being able to sit with yourself or be with yourself or party with yourself is so important. Remember in rehab, our, our, um, our counselor was like, if you're drinking 'cause you're bored.
Mm-hmm. If you need to drink because you're bored, you can't just sit with yourself. Mm-hmm. That's a problem. Well,
Zoe: I couldn't ever look at myself in a mirror.
Heather: No. Yeah. You have to be able to be sober and sit with yourself and, and know how you are. And like, if you're a drinker, that's fine. But like, you should go to these things and you should do the things you normally do without alcohol.
Yeah. Because you should know yourself. You should know,
Zoe: and you should know if you're, if you like doing these things, like maybe you don't even like going to these parties or hanging out with these people. Sober. Like That's a great point. You might not even like your best friend, you just drink with her all the time.
You might not even like who she's as a person, hang out with her sober and see how you really feel about her. You know?
Heather: Yeah. And then, and then when you [00:45:00] have people around you that actually do care and support you. Yeah. Not just from a drinking perspective, you do feel better. Yeah. I'm like, oh, these people
Zoe: have me love me.
For me. Yeah. And not because like I am trying to have fun drinking with them. Right? Yeah.
Heather: Also, when it comes to dating. Mm-hmm. It's the same. I mean you, you know, we always think like you have to drink to be able to go on a date and it's like, hold on. What you just said about maybe you don't like your friend.
Yeah. You. Might not like the guys you're dating either. No. You're probably just like,
Zoe: they're your party friends.
Heather: Yeah. You know,
Zoe: they're, they're your drinking buddy. Well, they're not your boyfriend. I mean,
Heather: I've like said yes to being someone's girlfriend when I was wasted. Yeah. And like my, and then my ex, we started dating, but we were drinking so much.
Yeah. And then by the end of it, I mean, it broke because I was an alcoholic. Yeah. But I, I do wonder sometimes I reflect, I'm like, did we actually like each other? Yeah. Or did we just drink a lot in the beginning, fall into a thing and then like, it was convenient and like cute for a little [00:46:00] while.
Zoe: Well, if you're drinking with someone, the serotonin, right?
Mm-hmm. You're, you have so much serotonin if you're drinking with someone that feels like love, right? Yeah. So they're like, oh my God, I love this person. Or oxytocin. Yeah, oxytocin. So you confuse that. Yeah. You don't know if you like them or not. Well,
Heather: yeah. That's exactly right. And it, you know, wine is a love drug.
Yeah. And also it lets you. Let your guard down. It lets you let your guard down and that makes you feel, when you let your guard down with someone you, that makes you feel that you're doing it because they're making you feel comfortable. Mm-hmm. They're not making you feel comfortable. The alcohol is making you feel comfortable, so you don't even know Yeah.
What your vibes are. And as women, we have to feel the vibes. Yeah. In a sober way to keep ourselves safe and to like be able to like have a good fucking time.
Zoe: And even like first states, like I'm sure so many. Girls go on first dates. Mm-hmm. At least having two drinks in them already so that they're like not as nervous.
I loved going on first dates sober. Sober because like I loved feeling nervous. Yeah. I don't know, it was like [00:47:00] very exciting. Yeah. And something to like look forward to and I never maybe like the nerves, I was confused 'cause that was like. I'm, I never felt like that before. I've never felt nerves like that before, so I really did like feeling that.
Yeah.
Heather: I kind of like it too. I, I, uh, I, when I went on the first few dates, I was terrified Yeah. Of texting my friends, being like, yeah, I, I don't know if I can go in there. Yeah. It is very
Zoe: empowering to Exactly. Because you do it and then you're sober and you're like, fuck, I could do anything. And me fun. I did it.
Yeah. Yeah. I did it. I didn't have to rely on anything. That was a big thing to make
Heather: me fun, flirty and hot. It was a big thing for me when I went to rehab. I was like, I don't know who I am. Mm-hmm. And I know that I'm, I didn't know who I was either. And I know that I'm funny. I know that I'm funny as hell and I can change it.
Yeah. I can fuck up any conversation and just like, give people, I can make people feel good. Yeah. I can, I know I can do that. I'm like, Mr. Fun guy. Yeah. And when I stopped drinking and went to rehab, I was like. I don't know how to do this. Yeah. I don't know if people [00:48:00] like me. I don't know if I'm funny. I don't know how to make conversation 'cause I've only ever met people drunk, fucked up.
Yeah. For the past 10 years. Same. And then it didn't take long. It was like the second night. Yeah. I was like, oh, we are chilling. Like, this is good. We're talking about drugs, we're talking about stuff like y It's okay. Like you're in there. Yeah. And like, that's the version of yourself that needs to be respected and loved by a significant other.
Mm-hmm. And it's, it's, it's really interesting to be on this side in sobriety and like dating and like there, I mean, I've been on dates where I'm like, oh, he hates me. Mm-hmm. And like, or he really likes me and then he doesn't text me back. Or he does. And he is like, I hate you. But that's like
Zoe: the game of
Heather: it
Zoe: all.
Like that's just dating,
Heather: drinking
Zoe: wouldn't change it. Drinking wouldn't change that. Nothing. No.
Heather: And, and if it did mm-hmm. Like, let's say that guy texted me again and wanted to go out again. Yeah. But I had been drinking the first night. What I know now of him is that he was dating somebody else.
Yeah. And so
Heather: he would've just wanted to have sex with me.
Yeah. Which is [00:49:00] fine. But we also didn't have sex on the first night because I wasn't drinking.
Yeah.
Heather: If I was drinking. And then that took me into a loop because I was like, wait, I thought we're not supposed to have sex on the first date. But if we, and 'cause if we do, he's gonna text me and say, I don't want this.
This is not serious. And if I don't, he's gonna be like, oh, she's a loser, boring girl. And that's what it felt like because I didn't have sex with him on the first date. And I didn't drink. I didn't drink. Yeah. He did say we should go out again. And then texted me and was like, I don't wanna go out again.
And I'm like, oh my God, now I'm sober. He doesn't like me. But all that to say if I did drink the result would be the same. Exactly. And that's good. And that is good. It does. It does feel really
Zoe: good. It does feel really good, but it is also really scary. Um, like I think it's just like if you have the mindset of being like.
I'm sober. Everyone else relies on something else. Yes. That makes me superior to everybody. Like that's a good way to frame it. The confidence, like the confidence that has to like bring you, brings me is amazing. And I am [00:50:00] so thankful. That's the thing that's, I'm like, I can go out with this guy who's been drinking, like, I don't care because I'm superior to him and I'm better than him because I'm sober.
Heather: That's an interesting reframe to be like, oh, are you drinking today? And it's like, oh no. Rather than me, I just go, oh no, I can't. I'm a lunatic and I'll have sex with all of you. I think that's funny to say. Yeah. Um, it is kind of interesting to be like, are you drinking today? And it's like. No, I don't need to.
Yeah, I don't really want to. I'm good. No, I mean, we don't, but it's like, yeah, I don't need to, yeah, that's hot. That's hot to me. That's hot to me.
Zoe: It wouldn't have been hot to me years ago, but, well, no, I, I love that I can say that and yeah, I don't have to tell everybody that I'm an alcoholic straight up. I love to, I love, I love you too.
But it's also like interesting and fun to like keep it mysterious and be like, no, I don't drink.
Heather: Yeah,
Zoe: yeah,
Heather: yeah.
Zoe: And then tell them about my crazy life after. Well,
Heather: that's the thing. Some people go when they're hooked, some people go, okay, and I go. You're not gonna ask why.
Zoe: Yeah, like I said something to you.
Well, I think people are nervous to ask why. I told, I met my friends when you dropped [00:51:00] me off. I met my friend's friend. Mm-hmm. And she invited me to apartment 200 for her party, um, in a couple weeks. So I'm like, oh, apartment
Heather: 200. I haven't
Zoe: heard that. I'm going in a couple weeks. That just made
Heather: my nipples hard in a way.
I was like, I don't wanna go. I need to
Zoe: wear a sparkly outfit. That's the only requirement if I want to go to her birthday party. And I'm like, yeah, fuck it. I'll get some sparkles. Do you have a sparkly outfit I can borrow? I was just gonna
Heather: say, you know, that pink skirt that I have that's like sparkly. Okay.
You wear a little underwear underneath.
Zoe: Can I wear that? Oh my God. Does it? What if I was like, well fit me?
Heather: Are we not the exact same?
Zoe: You're tinier than me for sure. I think we are the exact same. You're tinier than me for sure. We'll see. It'll, it's me. It's a cute one. Um, I'll try it on after. Where I going, but when I told her I was sober, and I could tell that she's like, never heard that before in her whole life.
Like someone saying that they're sober. Mm-hmm. And she's like, oh, interesting. Like, and I was like, yeah, you've probably never heard that in your life before. God. Yeah. It's so weird. I'm like, there's, so, I forget that it's not a normal thing for people to hear.
Heather: I [00:52:00] know. You know? I know. And I feel like because my algorithm is pretty sober.
Yeah. I'm like, are we not unique? We're so fucking I'm, oh my God, is everybody sober? And I'm like, no. Literally nobody is sober.
Zoe: Nobody is sober. No one ever hears another person saying that they're sober. So it takes them by shock and Yeah. Obviously they're not gonna ask questions because they don't wanna interrogate you.
They don't wanna Yeah. Make you feel uncomfortable, you know? Mind you, it's my, you're choking yourself
Heather: right now. I don't know why I was doing that. It's been a very horny week. Speaking of choking. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Spitting. Oh, actually, let's do this and then we'll, okay. Well, dating and sex is interesting because drunk sex is better.
That's one of these. Okay, we'll get into that. Propaganda. Drunk sex is better. This is interesting 'cause this is what I'm going through now. Well, obviously we know that I'm going through a sex problem where I get really nauseous when I have sex. Yeah. It's getting a little better. But I was thinking the other day, like there are things that I normally ask for.
Mm-hmm. Like, there are [00:53:00] things that I have said to this new guy that I'm seeing, that I'm involved with. Um, I've said, I've said it to him, even calling him like daddy. Mm-hmm. I. It's not for us. Mm-hmm. It doesn't fit for us for some, and I don't feel right saying it. I
Zoe: never liked saying, daddy. I like it.
Really? I've always said it. Yeah. There was only one guy that really liked it, so I said it for him, but I never really liked it. You
Heather: didn't like it? No, I'm not
Zoe: a daddy. Yeah. I like, I like it. I think I like it when my husband is a dad. A dad. And then I'll probably say it hot. Well now Yeah. You're just like,
Heather: where's your kids?
Zoe: Where's your kids at?
Heather: But I like, don't put them inside me. I liked it in the same way that I liked being choked. Yeah. And I You don't like being choked with this guy? I don't, I don't know. Okay. I'm sober now. Yeah. And I feel like sex is so weird. Like I'm, yeah. I'm very, my body is like rejecting a lot of like, intimacy, but I'm working on it.
Mm-hmm. But, um, I, I, I, I was wondering, 'cause I said something, I, I called him daddy when we were having [00:54:00] sex and I was like, that wasn't really right. Mm-hmm. Then I asked him later, I'm like, what do you like to be called in bed? And he was like, oh, I like babe or baby or whatever. And I'm like, okay, hot. And I'm like, yeah, I feel like.
And the choking. He hasn't choked me. Okay. And I like it. Yeah. I, I don't wanna be with him and it's not because of him. I feel like it's me. I'm like, oh, I'm trying, I'm figuring out now as a sober person what I, and my nervous system and my body really like Yeah. And what it needs. And this was a real big curve ball.
Yeah. Like, I didn't think that,
Zoe: like, I think I, I think it's also different with each man you're sleeping with. Right. Totally. Like some people that I was sleeping with, I liked to be like, more aggressive with, I guess just 'cause I didn't care. Yeah. Or like, maybe I wanted that from them, but. With my boyfriend, like I do like more like loving sex sometimes.
Oh.
Heather: Zoey, are you having
Zoe: romantic sex? Not always, no. Are
Heather: you over there having romantic sex on the 45th floor?
Zoe: On the 39th floor? I don't, I wouldn't [00:55:00] say romantic sex, but I, it's a different type of, let's be honest, it's not romantic.
Heather: Like as romantic as you can be. Yeah. You're
Zoe: like, I love you. Bye. I love you, but punch me in the face.
Yeah. You know, I, it is the different men I sleep with. I definitely feel like there's a different vibe and the fact that I like my boyfriend so much, it's a different type of sex that makes me feel more connected. Nice.
Heather: Yeah.
Zoe: Instead of just like, I'm not using him for something.
Heather: Yeah. I've been, I'm,
Zoe: it's a conjoined thing I guess.
I think the
Heather: performance of it for me Yeah. Is. Clearly a dissociation. Yeah. And like being like loud and being like pretending to have orgasms and stuff. It's very performative. And I think that that, and you're a
Zoe: dancer.
Heather: Yeah. But I think that that is part of me not wanting to be there. Yeah. Like, I think, I think so
Zoe: too.
Heather: Hating my body for years. Never wanting to be naked, having to be in the dark, like being a [00:56:00] drunk. All these things I like. I, um. What was I just gonna say?
Zoe: The performance of it all. I
Heather: think the performance of it helped me dissociate. Yeah. But now that I'm sober, I can't, you wanna be connected to you. Yeah.
It's like kinda, I can't do though, like I, my brain and my body can't be separate. Like they have to be together or I don't feel safe. I mean, my brain and my body are in the same vessel. Yeah. I think that's totally what's going on. Yeah. I think that's what's going on. Yeah. So now I'm having like really sweet, like cuddle sex and it's like really cute.
I have to show you a position actually that Okay. Yeah. It was like we keep ending up in this position 'cause we keep having sex on the couch and it's like really cute. Oh, I know. Adorable. I know.
Zoe: No, I think sex. I don't know what type of sex I was having when I was drunk. Like, I, I wasn't there and I'm sure it was performative and I'm sure it wasn't good.
Like, I don't think I had orgasms when I was drinking.
Heather: Yeah.
Zoe: How could I, I couldn't feel [00:57:00] anything.
Heather: Well the girl, um, han that was on. Doctor's podcast. She was like, I think what makes you really good in bed is the ability to say that you don't think you're that good in bed. Hmm. And I am like, oh my God. Yeah.
I don't think I'm that good in bed. Yeah, of course. Like when she said that, I was like, oh, I know that. Like, I know and not because I'm like, oh, I don't think I'm good enough at this, or hot enough at this, or flexible enough at this. It's like, no, I just don't necessarily know what I want. Yeah. And that's almost like exciting to me.
Well, and that's what
Zoe: makes sex good is finding out what you want. Yeah. And what you like. And that's when the sex gets good. You know? How can you know what you want and like when you're drunk having sex. Yeah. When you're drunk having sex, your abilities down, and you're just like trying to please the man, I feel you're, and you're not really feeling anything as a woman.
Maybe as a man you are. That's also why though, I'm not
Heather: too, when I give. When I go down on Yeah. Guys, I don't get nauseous. Yeah. Because like, I'm not performing. I'm good at this part. Right. I know. I'm good at it. And this is about like your vulnerability. I'm not vulnerable in this [00:58:00] situation. Yeah. So that makes me less anxious and nauseous.
Mm-hmm. But when it's like on me, I'm like, oh God. And it's like kind of annoying. It's kind of a bummer to be like, I'm 30 and I don't know what I like or what I want, but I'm also like, I'm only 30. That's okay. No, literally
Zoe: people in their, like, people probably die not knowing what they like. You know, 100%
Heather: Zoe way
Zoe: they do when that's not wrong.
At least year figuring it out. A lot of people never figure it out. And that's really sad. My aunt told me, she was like, I love listening to the podcast because like, you're having so much fun sex. Mm-hmm. And like, I'm so happy for you. Well Zoe is, well, we both are. I'm, I'm thrown up. Well, you have had fun sex.
Yeah. Yeah. You, yeah. Yeah. It's just like, yeah. I don't know if a lot of women out there get to experience sex like this and. Be so open with their partners. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's like, really f It's really fun. I don't know what the fucking type of drunk sex I was having before. I don't wanna know.
Heather: Not [00:59:00] good. Not good.
Always and always so bruised, always. Oh my God. So bruised. I hated
Zoe: waking up in the morning and like not being able to pee because it hurt so much. And that's where like, we probably weren't wet. They like, we definitely weren't godd up. Definitely not like they were just using us. Yeah. And that's where I just so were we even awake?
Heather: God, I just so knew my role though. Yeah. I knew my role was not to be loved. It was just to like walk in there and be useful. Yeah. That's all I, that's literally so sad though. Yeah. But that's what I thought that I was, and, and really truly the things that I were doing at that time and drinking the way I was, I was like, this is all I deserve.
Yeah. And that's how I felt. Yeah. And I'm like. So I need to get as close to love as I possibly can. Mm-hmm. And this is, this is it. Mm-hmm. So I'm gonna do this. Yeah. And I'm really depressed and sad about it, so I'll just go home and drink and That's fine.
Zoe: Then
Heather: You are not good. Not good. Now I'm having better sex, even though I'm throwing up.[01:00:00]
Yeah. But
Zoe: you're getting
Heather: better.
Zoe: You didn't, you're getting better. The other night. I didn't. Yeah. I didn't. Exciting, exciting
Heather: stuff.
Zoe: Really. Okay.
Heather: We brought this up before, but I just wanna touch on it again. Mm-hmm. For any new listeners, you can drink again if your mental health has improved.
Zoe: So that's an interesting one because I think like going to meetings mm-hmm.
That's the whole point. Like, you know that you can never drink again. Okay. Like you've accepted that you're powerless over alcohol. If you have alcohol in your body again, you're gonna like, you're gonna go back. Yeah. And it's gonna be worse every time. Yeah. They always encourage you to like talk to people who relapse and ask why they relapse and what was happening before.
Yeah. And like so that you can stop yourself from doing that. So hopefully it never happens again. But having the mentality of being like, no, but you're an alcoholic. But once you've fixed yourself, you can drink again. Like a [01:01:00] normal person. Yeah. Yeah. You can't ever tell that to someone. I think if someone told me like when I was getting sober, yeah, I know you're depressed and you were drinking too much, but you can drink like a normal person again, that would give me the ability to relapse and that would just continue my cycle that I was doing before.
Yeah. Trying to get sober re like not being able to get sober. The cycle of it all is what's dangerous. Mm-hmm. And being a chronic relapser is dangerous. Yes. Because one day you will die, will die. Um, you can't tell that to someone. It's not drinking. Wasn't because of our mental health drinking was because we felt like we needed something else to fix ourselves.
No, if that's not mental health, to me, that's like relying on something.
Heather: Yeah. I don't know. I Well, yeah, I, I feel like that conversation is like very nuanced. Yeah. Because it's like, yeah, it can be, it can be like, you know, I was incredibly [01:02:00] depressed and anxious as a kid and I had went through trauma and then, and I'm an alcoholic.
Whereas like, and some people don't have that trauma, right? Yeah. So it's like, where does it come from? But I, um, the thing is, if you take poison, it's gonna poison you. And for us, for addicts
Zoe: that my brain hasn't changed. No. You know, my brain hasn't changed. Yeah. I'm happier now because I don't drink. That doesn't mean I can drink again.
And then. Be happy still. Right. You know it's gonna go down again.
Heather: It will, it will. Because that's our thing. Yeah. We're alcoholics, we're addicts. Like it does not matter. It doesn't, and I think people need to understand this. It doesn't matter where you're at with your mental health. Yeah. You could be having, you could hold down the best fucking job.
I've, I've said this before and I, this was one of the best lessons I learned in rehab for this specific situation. You know, your mental health is better. I feel better. Can I drink? The way that you think about it is like, your [01:03:00] addiction is over here. You're over here and it's coming with you. Mm-hmm. Right.
You can stop drinking. Yeah. But okay, this, the drinking is in the middle, but the drinking stopped. It's gone. But the addiction is still there. Yeah. Just 'cause you don't have alcohol in the house doesn't mean you're not an alcoholic. Yeah. You're not an alcoholic. Just when you drink, it's always, and so when you are.
You know, you're growing and changing and you're moving on with your life and your mental health is getting better. Your addiction is still there because we have it. Yeah. It's an addiction in our body. Yeah. And it's just doing pushups. Yeah. So when you go back to it, it's not a matter of whether you can control this thing.
This thing is so strong. Yeah. And this is where the powerlessness comes over in aa. Right. It's like we are powerless to this thing because it's so fucking strong and it never gives up.
Zoe: Yeah.
Heather: And it's just waiting. So when you do, it's just waiting and it is just one day at a time too. Yes. Like we
Zoe: never know.
And that's why like, I'm happy today because I don't drink.
Heather: Mm-hmm.
Zoe: That doesn't mean like I can drink,
Heather: you know? I don't know. You're happy because you are not drinking.
Zoe: Yeah. Like if,
Heather: if I'm, yeah. That my
Zoe: mental health is good right now
Heather: [01:04:00] because I'm not drinking. That doesn't mean I should drink. No. Nothing in my life.
Nothing at this point. Nothing at all would be better enhanced in any way by alcohol? No. Nothing. Would it make, I mean even, like, would it make situations easier in, in social settings? Uh, maybe for a second, but honestly, all social settings I've been to when I was drinking, I leave being like, oh my God, what the fuck did I say?
Or dare I, and I
Zoe: leave in social settings when I'm drinking because I just wanna drink like a lunatic at home. Mm-hmm. Like, I'm not enjoying the people at the function, the party at home when I'm drinking, because I'm waiting for the party at home. Like, I am gonna leave the function Oh. In an hour because the party's at home.
If I'm sober at the function, I'll stay for five hours because I'm, I can actually enjoy myself without thinking about what shit I wanna do at home.
Heather: Yeah. You have to hit rock bottom. Yeah. To get sober.
Zoe: What was your rock bottom? Did you think you had a rock bottom and then it [01:05:00] wasn't your rock bottom?
Heather: Um, okay.
No. Okay. So there were things that would happen, like I wouldn't feel well or like the major throwing up in the shower. Yeah. My rock bottom was, I knew I was gonna die. Yeah. Like that.
Zoe: It was like an instinct that you had? Yes. Or did you see something or did you notice something? I could feel something, yeah.
Heather: Feel it. I looked crazy. Yeah. I mean, you saw pictures of me. Yeah. It looked, I, I looked like I was in, someone said that Anne, I was with Anne and she was like, yeah. You looked like you were in liver failure. Yeah. Like, you just didn't like the way that I was bloated. Yeah. The way that I had weight on my body.
I was having heart palpitations. Yeah. There was a time, a day. I, I woke up in the morning and I moved a little bit. Mm-hmm. And this whole side. Stab stabs. Yeah. I don't know if it was a heart episode. I've talked to other addicts who were like, yeah, I think I had some sort of heart episode. Yeah. It may have been, it may have just been like severe muscle tension.
Yeah. But it was so bad to your body
Zoe: was telling you
Heather: this
Zoe: is,
Heather: I couldn't, this [01:06:00] is enough. I couldn't, I couldn't even reach for my phone. Yeah. Because if I moved this then, like, this kind of moves, I couldn't, and I was like, if I move, I'll die. Like, it just felt like the pain was so bad that it, my heart was gonna explode.
Mm-hmm. And there were a few of those and there was a few of like, um, I can't put my hair in a ponytail without sitting down 'cause I'm winded. Yeah. Like, I can't tie my shoes, I can't get Nike's harness on without being winded. There was, we're so lucky to have
Zoe: had like that rock bottom where we're like, okay, this is enough.
Because a lot of people don't have that. Like, ugh, this is enough for me. Like, I, I wanna be sober. Did
Heather: you have one?
Zoe: I mean, I guess it was when I was, my rock bottom was when I was moving back to the city and I. I was going to job interviews showing up drunk and I was ending up at the hospital again.
Yeah.
Zoe: Um, it's nice to have and I couldn't do anything. Like I couldn't get a job. I was just ending up in the hospital. I was like, okay, I can't do it anymore. If I wanna be back in the city, I guess I have to figure out how to be sober. [01:07:00] But at that point, I think I was just like, I need to figure out how to drink moderately, you know?
Well, the thing is
Heather: for you, your rock, like thank God you stopped and you did because like that was as rock bottomy as I'd ever want you to get
Zoe: because with you, but my rock bottom should have been when I stood on the ledge in my balcony, you know? Yeah. It sh my
Heather: rock
Zoe: bottom should have been when I got my
Heather: DUI.
Yeah. And we should have stopped drinking the first time we blacked out, but we didn't. Yeah, exactly. It's like rock bottom. Rock bottom is different for everyone. And there are, right, you said this before, a lot of people think like, oh, you got a DUI and that's when you got sober. Yeah. It's like. No. Yeah, that DUI fucking escalated my drinking because I was so upset that I got a DUI.
Yeah. I felt so much shame. Yeah. It's like, well, I might as well just fucking kill myself with this alcohol then. Exactly. Everyone's rock bottom is different and, but you really don't need to get there and I would urge you to not like, I don't know. I feel like
Zoe: you do
Heather: need
Zoe: to,
Heather: I know it's scary if you
Zoe: want, if you want to be sober really badly with all you have in you and do it Yeah.
You [01:08:00] kind of do need to face the rock bottom. Like you do need to have that desperation of like, oh, I need to be sober. Yeah. Or else you're gonna keep relapsing. I feel. Yeah. You know, it's gonna contin the cycle will continue until you, until alcohol has brought you to your knees.
Mm-hmm.
Zoe: It unfortunately, you do need to hit that point in some rock bottoms.
Can you
Heather: explain the to your knees thing? I don't know. I
Zoe: feel like you just
Heather: need to be like, desperate enough, but that it's an AA thing. Does that mean like on your knees before God? Is that like a,
Zoe: I mean, people pray on their knees. Yeah. But but is that,
Heather: but is that what it means? It's like, it brings, you think it's just like
Zoe: a, a saying like, it brought me to my knees.
Like I couldn't, like it took me down. Yeah. Okay.
Heather: Okay. I always wondered what that was. Yeah. Like, is this a everyone, 'cause everyone says it and I'm like, you guys all know this. It's all the same thing. Oh, I, you'll read book
Zoe: a saying that we,
Heather: yeah, say,
Zoe: I guess
Heather: I like it. It's like, it likes like a full crumble,
Zoe: like a
Heather: submission.
Zoe: And you do kind of have to like be willing to do [01:09:00] anything.
Heather: However, I don't. I, I do think that, you know, when you need to stop drinking before you hit rock bottom, I certainly did. Yeah. I wasn't ready. But like, you won't ex you won't
Zoe: actually do
Heather: that. Yes. And I think that to hit rock bottom is really good because visually you can push off, you know, you hit bottom.
If you're just floundering in the middle, it's really hard to get yourself back up like you wanna hit bottom. I know, but there was so
Zoe: many times I thought I was at my bottom and I wasn't. You're not. I was never floundering in the middle. I was always at my bottom, you know.
Heather: Not really. 'cause you didn't stop for so long.
Right. Because even standing on the ledge of your balcony, well my bottom
Zoe: just got lower and lower I guess. Well that's like, I didn't
Heather: know how
Zoe: low my bottom could
Heather: be. Well, it's death. Yeah. That's the ultimate rock bottom. Yeah. And that's what we wanna avoid, right? Yeah. And so I do get it. Often we say like people aren't ready to go to rehab or stop until they're ready.
Yeah. And unfortunately that is true. Yeah. And oftentimes that does mean hitting a rock bottom. Yeah. And sometimes that can be like your wife is like, I'm fucking leaving you. Yeah. Or your kid finds your bottle of alcohol or things like that. It, but if it [01:10:00] doesn't feel like rock bottom to you Yeah. It's really hard to get out of it.
Exactly. Want you to hit rock bottom. Yeah. But you kind of have to Yeah. To know and you kind of have to hit rock bottom to remember and to fucking realize how bad it was. Yeah. 'cause I'll do shit like I'll gaslight the hell outta myself. Mm-hmm. And I'll be like, was it really that bad? Yeah. Yes, yes, yes.
Well that's also you were to die Good
Zoe: going to meetings too, because you hear these newcomers stories Yes. About like. Like, they think it was like they think, oh, I'm a, maybe I'm not an addict, like I just did this last week, but, and I am smoking crack tomorrow. Like, but maybe I'm not an alcoholic or maybe I'm not an addict.
Yeah. And I'm like, that's exactly the delusional thinking that I had.
Heather: And you don't wanna be, you don't wanna be, you don't wanna take the thing that makes you feel the greatest. Yeah. Even though that is also the thing that's like fucking with your chemical imbalance and it's making you really depressed.
You don't want that to be the problem. How, why can other people do it? And like, this has, has to be my problem. [01:11:00] But it is. Yeah. You just can't, it's actually kind of empowering to know like, oh, I can't do that. Yeah. You know, I can't, it's not for me.
Zoe: It is like a breakup though. Like it's literally, it was the love of my life.
Yeah. The absolutely.
Heather: And, and talking about this much like, makes me miss her. I know. Well, that's also how I feel about anorexia. When I was like, trigger warning, this is a mental health podcast. But when I, when I was not. Um, uh, starving myself anymore. Yeah. 'cause I literally couldn't keep it up. Yeah. I missed it so much.
Yeah. I was like, she was so cute and she had such vigor and she had such ability to not eat and to run for FI don't know why I was just going like that for 45 minutes. Like I just was, I missed it. Yeah. And there's like a part of me that, yeah. I do miss the alcoholic version of myself and not in a way that I wanna go back.
Zoe: Yeah.
Heather: But in a way that was like, man, there was a real way to calm it down. Yeah. Like a real quick way.
Zoe: But like, there also wasn't, because you do have to hit [01:12:00] your rock bottom as we're saying. Yeah. But the whole propaganda thing was that we don't, you don't have to hit your rock bottom. No, no, you don't. And I, I, I mean, I guess like, if you're not a true alcoholic, you don't, if you wanna stop, you can stop.
Well, I think, I think as an alcoholic you might need to though I'm contradicting myself. I think the
Heather: point of No, it's okay. It's a very, like, it's, well, it's a nuanced conversation. Yeah. Because it's like, yes. Again. To feel in your body that you're ready to get sober. You do have to hit a certain thing.
Yeah. And it could just be rock bottom in your mind. You could some people, yeah, that's true. You
Zoe: don't need to like do something drastic No. For you to stop. If you are listing this podcast and you're like, fuck, I want what they have, yeah. Then that's your rock bottom and go get sober.
Heather: Yeah. It's also like you don't have to be an addict to get sober.
No, you don't. You can be drinking too much. You can be drinking, not that much. Yeah. You don't have to be an addict to get sober, but Oh, hitting rock bottom. It's just not the goal. It's like being on the street is not [01:13:00] the goal. It's not the goal to hit rock bottom, but I That's true, but I understand why it does happen.
Yeah. You know, I would say try to avoid it and I would say. If you don't hit rock bottom and you get sober, you just have to write down things, write down reasons why it was that bad. Yeah. Sometimes rock bottom helps up, and I'm sure
Zoe: if you're, if you think you're drinking too much, you are. Yes. And I'm sure you can come up with a list super fast.
Yeah. So like, but if you're,
Heather: if you're waiting for rock bottom, I think you're pretty much there. And also, if you're waiting for rock bottom, just know that that rock bottom could be
Zoe: really, really bad. And going back to like, you don't need to be an alcoholic to start, stop drinking. My friend, she stopped drinking for a few weeks and just got.
A new relationship with alcohol and now doesn't drink every day by herself. You know, she is drinking only when she's going out or has like maybe one drink by herself a week, you know? Yeah. It's a new relationship that she has with alcohol. It's not, [01:14:00] she took a break to think about what her relationship was with alcohol and has a better one now, and I think that's amazing and I'm so proud of her.
Heather: But was she, she was drinking too much before
Zoe: she was drinking. Just every night. It wasn't too much that it wasn't affecting her life. Yeah. But she didn't like how she was drinking. No. And and now she likes not having to rely on that and being able to do it when she wants to and not as like a part of her routine.
People get caught up in a routine of just drinking every day. I mean, you have to cut that
Heather: pause. That's awesome. If true, right? It's, I think so. And it Sure. And maybe for her specifically it is true. Yeah. That would be great. That's awesome if it's true. Right. I don't know how sustainable or how like safe it is to, for, to hear that those stories 'cause it's so, and I don't mean in a bad way.
Yeah. It's just, I
Zoe: think she's just not an alcoholic so she can do that. Right. Right. I think as an alcoholic you can't do that. Well, see's difference listening to that
Heather: story, it makes no sense to [01:15:00] me. Right. I'm like, yeah, you can then change your relationship to alcohol. Yeah. I can't. No, we can't. Right, right, right, right, right.
She can, some people can.
Zoe: Yeah, some people can. And some people aren't alcoholics, but they do get into patterns of drinking every day and then they realize, oh shit. Like I can, I guess that's true. I can change my
Heather: relationship with alcohol. I guess that's true. And it a little bit used to piss me off. Yeah.
'cause I'm like, why can't I just change my relationship with alcohol? And it's like, well that's not available to you sweetie. Yeah. That's not available. You don't have that. Yeah. You can. Yeah. Also, um, I. You have to drink every night to be an alcoholic, you have to drink this amount, you have to have more than this amount, or you have to be drinking in the morning.
Yeah. That's
Heather: kind of part of it too, of like, what makes me an alcoholic. Mm-hmm. That makes everyone is different. You and I drink very differently. Yeah. We probably drink like similar amounts, but we drink very differently. Yeah. I was drinking in the morning. Were you drinking in the morning? Yeah. Yeah. Most days if I could, but if I sit here and say, oh, I was [01:16:00] drinking in the morning, and then Johnny is like, oh, I only drink at night.
I drink six beers, but I only drink at night, so Heather's way worse than me, but Sure. But it, but you're still an addict. You're still relying on those six beers, you know? Yeah. It, it doesn't matter what I'm doing. Yeah. Or what I've done, or how many people I've fucked or gotten hit by the train or like,
Zoe: well, it's the same thing as when I thought like, oh, I wasn't as bad as everybody else in rehab because they were addicted to harder stuff.
It doesn't matter that I wasn't addicted to crack, like my drug of choice still. Still made me want to kill myself and was going to kill me. Yeah.
Heather: Fucked up your life.
Zoe: Yeah. And fucked up my life and made me a shell of a person. Yeah. It doesn't matter how much you're drinking, if it's destroying your life and killing you, then you are an addict.
Heather: Yeah. It's a really good point too. It's like if it's destroying your life, you can't handle it. You gotta
Zoe: cut
Heather: it.
Zoe: Yeah. Yeah. [01:17:00] It
Heather: it you. 'cause once it, if your boyfriend is destroying your life, you gotta cut it. That's exactly right. If you, if you are like using a body wash, that's like giving you a rash, you gotta
Zoe: cut it.
You gotta cut it. Gotta cut it. That's an easy solution. Yeah. But the other two is like, it's so hard for people so emotional. It's so emotional. Yeah.
Heather: But it is, it is true. Yeah. It's objectively, it's like this isn't serving you leave it. Yeah. Like alcohol just is not serving you anymore. Yeah. Walk away. Yeah.
You know. Harder. Harder said than harder or easier said than done. Um, but I, I do think that that's an important. An important thing. 'cause I was trying to negotiate my own sobriety early on when I was like, well she did that to drink. Or like, she was drinking vodka. I wasn't drinking vodka. Yeah. So like, she's way worse.
So what if I just,
Zoe: I think I was comparing myself to drugs as well. Totally. It was like at, at least like, I'm not doing crack. You know? At least I'm not
Heather: Yeah.
Zoe: Doing like my, my ex was doing Coke way more than I was and I was like, he's way worse than me. No, he wasn't, he was still [01:18:00] doing his job and showing up for family.
Like I wasn't doing any of those things. Yes.
Heather: And so to him you probably looked worse because you weren't showing up for family. Yeah. You're not going to your job. Yeah. I'm drinking at work. Yeah. Some people are holding, Elon Musk has a trillion dollars and he has a very severe addiction to ketamine. And it's like, it doesn't really matter what you're presenting or how you're functioning.
It's like the reliance on alcohol is different for everyone and you know when you're relying on it.
Zoe: Yeah.
Heather: And it's only a matter of time before it fucks your life. Elon Musk would be on the street if he wasn't a trillionaire. Exactly. You know? Yeah. Same with like, we were talking about that before. It's like I had a roof over my head, but for how long?
Yeah. You know, like that was not gonna last very long. It's not sustainable. No. Some drugs send you to the streets faster, but it's not, it's not exclusively hard drugs. Yeah. The very last thing is, I guess just to wrap everything up, is that alcohol makes me more fun and it makes me more, me, lets me be [01:19:00] me.
Zoe: It let me be me when I first started drinking. Yeah. Maybe like the first year of my drinking. Mm-hmm. Actually maybe like the first three or four years of my drinking, but then it just, yeah, it be made me become a shell of a person and not care about anything else.
Heather: When you first started drinking, did you know who you were?
Zoe: No. Right. I was using it
Heather: to be someone I'm not. Yeah. So, yeah. Isn't that interesting? Yeah. It's like we start drinking because we think we're supposed to, and we're trying to fit in and that helps. Yeah. And we, we, you take this drug and it helps you fit in. Perfect. That's the worst thing in the world, is to not fit in.
Yeah. And, and it does feel like it's enhancing who you are. And I think the problem is that it's not, it's actually making you a stupid version of yourself. Yeah. It's making you, you know, an uninhibited person is not the safest person to be around. It's not the person who's like, thinking critically. It's not the person who wants everyone to have a good time and making sure people are safe.[01:20:00]
Yeah. Not thinking about yourself. Alcohol doesn't make you more, you, it makes you annoying. It makes you like a d It is like a different version of yourself, though it's not you. 'cause you wouldn't do those things, say those things. It
Zoe: makes, it's a, it's a good thing to like, I don't know what I'm trying to say.
Mm-hmm. It was a nice thing to like make me open up as a person maybe when I was totally in high school and make me be more brave. And it did have positive attributes. Yeah. In high school.
Heather: Yeah.
Zoe: It's just when those things started not to be as positive, that's when it should have clued into my brain that like, this can't be for me.
It was too late. When that switch happens
Heather: and when that switch happens, you're like, well, now I don't know who I am at all because I've been drinking all this time. Exactly. In my formative years. Yeah. And that's okay because [01:21:00] everybody does that. And I started drinking because
Zoe: I didn't know who I was. Yeah, you are, right.
Heather: Yeah. And everybody does do that. Yeah. But now I'm sitting here 30, getting nauseous, having sex, and not knowing what I want. Mm-hmm. Because I'm, I've never asked myself. Yeah. You know, I've never been coherent enough to know. Yeah. And I love this version of myself way better, even if I'm not like. Where I wanna be or if I have like guilt about spending all those years not doing anything.
I'm like, this version of me is actually me. Yeah.
Zoe: It's
Heather: my favorite
Zoe: version. Well, it, we did, we weren't even a version of ourselves before. Like now we actually are a contributing person of society now. We actually have thoughts and have things that we like and know ourselves and are confident within ourselves and have personalities.
You I like
Heather: myself.
Zoe: I love myself. I love
Heather: myself too. Honestly. I love you. Like I really, I love you. I'm really mad at that camera. I'm
Zoe: really mad at that camera. That camera's pissing
Heather: me off. Just like want you all to know that I really almost [01:22:00] cried. It's okay guys. It's okay. We're getting there and I'm not gonna drink about it.
I'm not gonna, we're
Zoe: not gonna drink about it. That's, we would never do that. Well, I'm glad that we've like fought the propaganda. We're fighting every day.
Heather: Well, I'm proud of you.
Zoe: I'm proud of you too.
Heather: Okay. I gotta drive you to work now. Thanks, honey.
Thanks for listening to Girl Undrunk. You can follow us on Instagram and TikTok at Girl Undrunk Podcast and or send me an email at heather@girlundrunk.com.
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